Tuxedo Book BA15: AMD-only and Linux-preinstalled laptop | Hacker News Reader

Tuxedo Book BA15: AMD-only and Linux-preinstalled laptop

tuxedocomputers.com

318 pointsjrepinc155 comments

I purchased a Tuxedo laptop last summmer in order to support Linux only hardware vendors, but sadly it's been one of the worst computers - with the worst customer service - I've ever used. Sending it back for repairs doesn't help - they ignore the issues and fail to resolve them. At one point I didn't get a response for weeks. I'm not sure how their trustpilot score recently improved from fair / bad to great, but I'm suspicious that they could make such a turnaround so quickly. Read the bad reviews and they're quite consistent. https://au.trustpilot.com/review/tuxedocomputers.com

Thanks, I really appreciate the review. It looked good but a little pricey to me, I noticed Acer and others have ryzen 3 and 5 laptops now so I think there are a lot of options.

I'm skeptical that the market for users who want Linux preinstalled is significant... is it easy enough now to use that installing it is hard in comparison? I feel like if you can use it you can probably install it fine if pointed at a distro. Maybe a link to Rufus to write the USB boot disk.

I agree that there is probably a limited market for preinstalled Linux. Perhaps it's an option for folks who want/need Linux and don't want to deal with any of the complications that often exist for desktop use. I figure part of the allure is also that the machine is then inherently optimally compatible with Linux to begin with. I'm not sure how much that matters in practice these days though since there seems to be very few commonly used components that have poor support.

True, I suppose some mismatched or buggy hardware is a bigger issue in laptops. Like it's a pretty big problem if the wifi driver on my laptop is buggy in Linux, though nowadays that likely means it's buggy in Windows anyway.

The last laptop I purchased would literally BSOD only when connected to certain manufacturer (Cisco) access points under unclear conditions. It was a known bug. HP never bothered to release an installable patch and the one provided by Intel made the computer unbootable.

But I suppose there's likely still a market for people buying enough computers at a time that the risk of a hardware issue is not worth the premium.

I'm buying laptops with preinstalled Linux and then I purge it and install Arch Linux on it. But then I'm at least sure that there are drivers for all of the hardware build in there somewhere and I can install them and use everything build in. Also I'm hoping to vote for Linux support with my (or my employers) wallet.

The common reason to buy a computer preinstalled with linux is to not pay the windows/ios tax. Not that the price would be different though.

For me it’s more about making sure the hardware support is good.

The sad fact is that the Microsoft tax is cheaper than the extra costs niche manufacturers need to charge because by nature they have worse economics of scale.

Yeah - there’s that too. I need to run Windows in a VM anyways for some specialized tasks, so having the Windows license is useful.

I second this. Bought a notebook from them in 2016 and it was one of the worst purchases. The fan last around 8-12 months before it craps out. (went through 3 so far) The power supply is fragile, and I had to solder it several times already. The support ... well I asked them about when they would ship a bios update for some common vulns - first I got denials that these (Intel ME) vulns "aren't an issue" because you need physical access to the machine. Once the news about the vulns hit mainstream media they promised to email me with updates about their latest updates. After most my colleagues machines from other vendors had been patched after few months but they still had not shipped any fix. After 1 year of back and forth and empty promises about "stay tuned" or "please check our website for updates" I eventually told them to get f'ed.

It seems the people who work there also have little love for the community they serve. They use the FOSS/Freedom type of branding to sell into a niche of gullible enthusiasts (like myself) who believe that supporting such companies makes a difference. The prices don't justify the product. You're better off building your own system from scratch or buying a more commonly available brand for 30% less of the price. It's not like they invest some of the money back into developing replacements for proprietary binary blobs or open hardware or any of these things. You want to stay away from this company and the rubbish they're peddling!

Hmm, these are disappointing reviews ... specs and price look quite good.

I really want a company like this to succeed with Linux first laptops! Maybe System76 is closer to making it happen? I have really enjoyed pop!_os, so I’m considering one of their machines for my next laptop.

I have a System76 laptop, a Gazelle 17-inch. See [0] for exact specs.

pop_os! has been fantastic, though it has some ways to go, particularly in the power management department. Overall, the biggest drawback is definitely the battery life. If you look around for System76 laptop reviews you'll see that battery life is a consistent issue. I'm able to get ~1.5-2 hours on integrated graphics, about 45 minutes using Nvidia graphics.

At first I thought it was just the battery/device itself, (the device is largely is a rebranded Clevo laptop with System76's firmware and other custom parts), so I installed Windows on the machine to see what kind of battery life I'd get under that. Windows was able to get ~6 hours with the same workflow (mostly browsing, streaming, email) and ~4 hours with the Nvidia graphics.

[0]: https://system76.com/guides/gaze14/17b

That is pretty drastic. What's the culprit for such a massive difference?

Linux power management has always been terrible. It's a server OS, all the big players develop for server first, and PM on laptops is an obscure and unsexy corner of the ecosystem.

TBH it's not even a Linux issue as much as a FOSS issue, pretty much any alternative ecosystem has the same problems.

On Lenovo thinkpads like the x1 carbon I am able to get to get 4 to 5 hours of battery life on a charge. Not bad at all.

Linux power management for laptops is mostly a hardware and OEM problem. Every system has at least a few components that don't follow spec for power management, and the OEMs ship their workarounds in Windows drivers rather than in the system firmware. And none of those issues are publicly documented, so Linux developers have to reverse-engineer what PM features are actually usable under Windows on a certain system rather than trust what the hardware and firmware declare support for.

I do not disagree, but that’s where the FOSS structural incentives tend to fail. WiFi chipsets have the same “institutional problems”, but everyone needs WiFi so enough hackers will pour over the problem and generally find decent solutions. That’s generally not the case for power management, because most people will be ok with keeping “the brick” connected most of the time. Every once in a while, this or that company will throw a bit of money at the problem and solve it for a few models, for a few months... and then we go back to square 1.

I don't think the lack of appropriate structural incentives has anything to do with FOSS. It's that Microsoft has a near-monopoly on operating systems, so it's easier for PC hardware vendors to work directly with just Microsoft to deal with problems, rather than publicly document their hardware errata for the benefit of multiple OS vendors.

This is no different for any other chipset under the sun, from the good ol' "winmodems" of the '90s to today. But some stuff gets fixed and some doesn't. Power management is one of those that "doesn't".

I’ve had the same experience. Ubuntu 18.04 and up on a Dell Inspiron. 2hrs Max. Always warm, fans on all the time.

Installed TLP and now I get 5hrs or more depending on workload. Usually more.

Seriously, just have a check of what the system is and install TLP if it’s a laptop. It’s 2020.

I guess that is the default experience with no tweaks? Any success with TLP?

Anecdata, but I had a Dell xps 15 with discrete nvidia graphics. Similar numbers to yours. For my next laptop I got a Thinkpad X390 and this little 13" laptop gets about 4-6 hours on linux, without any tweaking.

They claim up to 17.6 hours in tech specs. Did you check your workflow with Windows? 4-6 hours is nice, but if you could get full work day with Windows, it doesn't look that impressive.

I have a system 76 oryx pro. I love it, though it’s big and heavy, it has 6 cores and a gpu that handles everything I through at it. Battery life is terrible, I could make it better by switching to the internal intel gpu (and sometimes I do) but it requires a reboot. For me it’s a portable workstation. I have an system 76 desktop too. It arrived dead, but support was able to point me to the card that came loose in shipping.

Pleasantly surprised at how low matenance the os is (pop os)

> specs and price look quite good.

Do they? I saw Ryzen 3xxxU which are okay but not outstanding. It's the Ryzen 4xxxU which wipes the floor with everyone else: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html the Ryzen 7 4800U has seventy percent advantage in performance per watt over the best Intel. The top four CPUs in this list are all Ryzen 4xxxU. (Also, if we wanted to list CPUs for similar targets and just list the 15W ones, this list would look super sad for Intel.)

Same here, the fans are awfull and have very limited lifespan.

This has been my experience with a lot of these indie open source hardware projects. They are awesome for tinkering but often suck for regular use. I think the task of building a laptop is just too much for small teams and they can't afford to put the good quality parts in because they aren't ordering 1 million of the part.

For now I'll stick to buying a proprietary dell laptop and putting linux on it myself. My Dell XPS has been getting regular firmware updates over LVFS in the 2 years I have had it.

I was looking to buy a laptop from Tuxedo Computers, but I've read the same customer service experience from other people. Their positive trustpilot reviews are mostly generic short and always 2 days apart, which seems like fake reviews to me.

I too had problems with their hardware and awful customer support experience, including a several weeks radio silence (a call to their hotline didn't help; in a second call I asked for the responsible manager, which resulted in me getting a status update a day later -- but still no resolution to my issues).

Avoid them like COVID-19.

Is “Tuxedo” a brand applied to whitelabel laptops? If so, they may have no control over hardware issues, and you might be able to get the same laptop at a better price / with better support elsewhere.

Damn I had kind of the same, also the worst computer I ever bought after having done research for a long time to get a Linux computer. I send it back two times and they fixed the Bluetooth and audio two times and then it broke again. And the glue under the plastic bezel around the screen started dissolving, I lost most of the screws and then I think it started overheating and switching itself off in both Windows and Linux. I payed about 1000 EUR for it and after 1.5 years later I had to buy something else.

I am sad that choice in Linux laptops is greatly diminished compared to six, seven years ago. Hackers, recommend some other vendors in Eurozone because Tuxedo leaves me barely satisfied.

Bought a laptop from them in 2017, it shipped out eight days after ordering.

The good: Great value for the cost, all components properly supported with drivers.

The bad: The product photos on the shop site tell a selective truth. I have some gripes with the hardware design that I only noticed after unpacking and using the device.

1. ⇞⇟⇱⇲ keys are positioned unergonomically. On keyboards in Acer and Sony laptops they are in a much better place.

2. One rubber foot is attached to the rechargeable battery. If you take it out to conserve product life, the device will wobble considerably. The battery is also very difficult to remove. In an Acer or Sony laptop one unlocks a grasp and pulls it off the back-side, this can be done blind and with one hand and with the device oriented for normal operation.

In the Tuxedo, one has to turn over the device because the rechargeable battery lifts out of the bottom. One has to risk breaking off a finger nail each time to get some leverage. At the same time, one hand lifts it out, and the other hand holds open the grasp, otherwise it snaps shut again, and one can't help but apply some pressure into the opposite direction. That's fucking retarded. What was the responsible engineer thinking?

3. The power supply pack is huge and heavy.

4. After powering up, the device always starts out with keyboard backlight switched on. There is no BIOS option to permanently disable it, one always has to wait until the OS is sufficiently loaded to switch it off.

I suggest you to look at a 3-5 year old business models from trusted vendors (whoever you like, Dell, HP, etc) and check out their hardware and whether it's compatible with Linux. They usually have good enough build quality and unless there's some incompatible piece of hardware, things are likely to work.

There are mobile workstation lines with awesome hardware (like Xeon, ECC, Quadro) which support Linux officially. If you have extra money to spend, you might want to check them out as well. Every major brand has those. They usually are bulky and not that mobile, but they are powerful.

You can check out Slimbook (ES based) which has some nice Clevo ultrabook models (Intel-only). For those in the US, IMO System76 seems to be providing the most value add from the Linux system vendors these days.

Someone just told me on Diaspora that their Tuxedo-badged, Clevo-made laptops were horrible, fragile, with poor linux compatibility :)

I am reflecting on this post, and I am thinking of an ancient "Marketing" book I once read (paper back, well-worn) years ago. This book was written well before the internet was a thing, but the tenet was to not allow a customer to walk away like this. Such a lost customer is more costly than literally giving away the product for free: they will - through word of mouth - set in motion a diffusion process in their social network. The authors estimated this would cost 7 (I think?) customers.

Now, here we are in the top post of hackernews, probably the main target group of this company. Of the millions of people reading this, most will now never buy a tuxedocomputers computer. This post (and the one replying to it with a similar sentiment), may have killed the whole thing.

I wonder what the authors of this Marketing book would have thought about that. Heh.

A while back, if even claimed to have a defective Logitech mouse, they'd just send you a new one per mail no questions asked. No need to even send the old one back. Seems like a good move now.

This is a rebranded laptop from an ODM [1]. It is also available from Schenker [2] and was reviewed by the Notebookcheck [3]. It looks really good, but I would love a few things to be fixed/updated: better 16:10 screen, Ryzen 4000, more USB-C ports, USB-C charging and dual-channel memory.

___________

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer

[2] https://www.schenker-tech.de/en/schenker-via-15-en

[3] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Schenker-VIA-15-Laptop-Review-...

I noticed that system 76 uses the same models as Schenker and Tuxedo.

Last I looked System76 gets their laptops from Clevo. Not sure if Schenker does the same.

They are from clevo

I doubt, Clevo has no 4* Ryzens yet

All of the System76 laptops only have Intel processors.

https://system76.com/laptops

I wish System76 had ryzen 4000 and an amd GPU...

Those are 3* Ryzens

This laptop is a Tongfang chassis and it’s basically the same laptop as the Schenker Via 15. Someone already linked to the comprehensive Notebookcheck review, but here’s a review of how the Schenker plays out of the box with Linux: https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/fmzch5/schen...

Note, the internals are similar to the 14” (Walmart) Motile M142s that have been selling for as low as $300 since last winter. There’s a 4000H refresh of the 14” being released next month as well (Mechrevo S2 Air), see my previous post for links to the details.

What are the keyboards like on these things? My previous laptop (bought May 2014) was Clevo¹ (Horize W550SU-1), and its keyboard was OK but not great at the start, poor within one year (lost all crispness of feel) and close to unusable (spongy all over, activation issues in a few of the most commonly typed keys and especially the space key) within two.

Now I have a Surface Book, whose keyboard feels great, but it has two major problems: ① a modal Fn key (where tapping it, which happens all the time by accident, toggles its mode); and ② its matrix is awful: typing at full speed, it likes to drop and transpose letters in some words (e.g. “mouse” may come out as “moes” or “moeu”!) because it can’t handle even 3-key rollover properly.

For my next laptop I’d consider a Clevo build because they do tend to check the boxes nicely in most regards (e.g. https://www.metabox.com.au/store/b249/Metabox-Multimedia-Pho... looks great on paper: AU$2,000 for 15″ with 4K IPS and other good specs; touch/pen support is the only thing I would expect to miss), but unless I have reason to expect the keyboard is better than the one I experienced, I’m leery.

—

¹ At the time I was price-sensitive but wanted a decent screen, my first laptop having been a second-hand HP 6710b with a 1680×1050 screen; I was not willing to accept 1366×768. For a 1920×1080 IPS panel, the cheapest brand-name option was around AU$1,400, but a Clevo one at AU$1,000 had better specs all round save for using integrated graphics rather than a dedicated graphics card, which was plus for me as I didn’t need dedicated and would prefer to save the battery life, weight and bulk.

I probably don't use my keyboard enough to really know. My system76 laptop is a desktop replacement and 99% of my use with it is with external keyboard/mouse/monitors.

And an eraser stick with the option to disable the trackpad in the BIOS. This is what keeps me coming back to Lenovo.

EDIT: This is not intended as a shameless plug for Lenovo, I just have so many false touches with trackpads, and I wish eraser sticks were more common, outside of a diminishing percent of Lenovo and a small percent of Dells.

I think you are using the phrase "shameless plug" incorrectly. "shameless plug" is normally used to advertise _your own_ merchandize. For example, a Youtuber talking about his/her other Youtube channel shamelessly. However, in your comment I think you meant to say "a dig" instead of "shameless plug". "This is not intended as a dig on Lenovo...", or "I'm not trying to pick on Lenovo..." cheers

You've got it backwards.

What I'm saying is that, because I need an eraser stick, I can only consider Lenovo (and some Dells). And I wish I had more options.

I’m in exactly the same boat. TrackPoint 4 life, yo.

What’s extra weird is that the first TrackPoint laptops appeared more than 20 years ago, so any IBM/Lenovo patents on the technology must have expired by now...

A square trackpad being required for laptops by Microsoft or something.

Also third party TrackPoints don’t have that magical touch, they’re hard or slippery or drifting more often or combinations of them. Some UMPC models from Sony, Fujitsu, OQO, Palm ARM laptop prototype had it I think, recently GPD had it.

Some HPs (Elitebook) also have (had?) one.

ZBooks usually feature them. I've got two of them now, they both have it. Personally I still prefer the feel of the Thinkpad ones.

Well spotted. However technically they are correct, it is not a shameless plug!

I think I've read or heard Panasonic rep say a rectangular trackpad is Windows 8 requirement from Microsoft, Lenovo also added trackpad and Windows Logo Key(ﾐ田) right when they inherited ThinkPad from IBM. So I'm sure there are more design requirements to Windows than publicly discussed, and IBM was exempt from some of it for historical reasons that Lenovo isn't.

With trackpad being a requirement, rationale for having redundant pointing device is weak I imagine.

> And an eraser stick with the option to disable the trackpad in the BIOS.

I used to love these, but with my last 2 X1 Carbons from Lenovo, I could not get the mouse to move fast enough in Ubuntu, even with all settings maxed out. I've since moved back to using trackpads.

`echo 255 > /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/serio2/sensitivity`

Newer ones use shorter stick portion and reportedly they are heavier that’s true

Just tried that, still not fast enough :(. I distinctly remember it being much faster on my t430s way back when.

Schenker is also a bit less expensive at €829 vs €859 for the Tuxedo.

They sell the same devices, but often have subtle differences regarding the exact available configuration, e.g. which SSD models are available or what the default warranty terms are. An apples to apples comparison is usually within 20€, but here it's 785€ (Schenker) vs 860€ (Tuxedo).

Hmm. It's weird that they allow for such large arbitrage opportunities given that they're part of the same tronic5 company group.

Just as an FYI, the 4000 series refresh is being released in China by Mechrevo (CODE 01) next month: https://www.weibo.com/5057286913/J2CoFhyLu

It has dual channel memory and USB-C PD and is running H series processors with a 54W TDP.

Why not just buy it directly?

I mean let's cut these crappy Linux shops out as middlemen.

Clevo and Tongfang are the ODMs for most of these white label laptops. I assume minimum orders are in the hundreds if not thousands of units, which is the main reason not to buy direct. That and you’ll have no warranty or other support, have to do your own customs, etc etc.

Most shops are just resellers but System76 and Purism do firmware and software attainment and development for some of their hardware. In that case you are paying to support the industry by buying a computer with comprehensive whole stack software support rather than it just being one of the lucky off the shelf OEM makes without major bugs.

I've bought a System76 before, it was terrible and I never bought another one.

In US 14 inch version was rebranded as Walmart Motile M142. It was on sale for $299.

I noticed single-channel memory and was about to bring it up. Unbelievable that a supposedly high-end laptop's RAM operates on single channel. But no USB-C charging I didn't notice, and that really is the deal breaker. Wtf Tuxedo

FWIW, early signs are Linux worked well on at least one 4700U thin-and-light (after upgrading the kernel for support for the iGPU): https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ryzen7-4...

One 4700H(S) machine with a dGPU (and other parts without drivers) did not do so well: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/linux-on-laptops-asu...

Some of the 4700U laptops perform better than you'd think from the nominal 15W TDP. Partly just to be expected from the spec (still >4GHz single-core boost and 8C), and also seems most of these run at a 25W TDP-up when plugged in (often noisily so, under load).

Would be nice to see these put into better designs; right now I'm mostly seeing 14-inch 1080p machines. Previous gens of AMD chips had the same issue, but it's especially annoying when, in terms of performance, battery life, and weight, you can see the elements for a great laptop are there.

I really appreciate how descriptive they are in the specs.

` Battery life: (with our optimizations) about 25 hours at min. display-brightness, without Wifi & Bluetooth, without keyboard backlit, in idle mode about 13 hours at medium brightness with Wifi, at office work

We're testing battery time always in idle mode, at minimal display brightness, with keyboard backlight deactivated, WIFI & Bluetooth disabled and without any further connected devices (USB, LAN, HDMI, VGA etc. unplugged!). This way you get an information of maximal possible battery life. Starting from this you can manage your individual battery life depending on your demands and to influence it e.g. is keyboard backlight unnecessary during daylight. Bluetooth is also only needed to be turned on, if there's a Bluetooth device connected. Full display brightness as well is hardly always necessary. `

or their disclaimer about the display panel:

` Modern displays with IPS panels have bright areas along the frame as a normal characteristic. This has hardly any influence on everyday operation, not least because the displays are optimized for daylight operation. It can only be minimized, but not completely avoided, regardless of the manufacturer and for manufacturing reasons. `

Just ran the configurator, the price is _really_ good IMO. With memory maxed out (32GB), a 1TB SSD and WiFi 6 it's only 1099 EUR.

Too bad it's not offered with a 4K display. And personally I would have preferred a TB3 port over all the I/O that this machine has build-in. When on-the-go I'm using wireless connectivity anyway, and at my desk I like to use a TB3 dock with PD as an all-in-one docking solution. Not supporting charging trough USB-PD is also missed opportunity.

Weird pricing trade offs though in there. 250 to 500GB m.2 drive is +25, adding a second 250GB drive is +95

Upping the wifi to 6 is only +10? Why bother even offering that.

I don't mind the display but not being USB-C Charging is really disappointing.

> 250 to 500GB m.2 drive is +25, adding a second 250GB drive is +95

That's because the base price includes the 250GB SSD. You can remove it for a 75 Euro price reduction.

The second SSD is also a bit more expensive since there's no M.2/SATA option on the second slot. If you select the 970 EVO Plus (250GB) you'll have to add 20 Euro, which matches the price in the second slot.

Perhaps it would be cheaper to buy the SSD separately and add it yourself?

They've got a pile of 3168s they want to get rid of or acquired for free/near free. There is no reason to buy that card new in 2020, it wasn't even a good option for the price when it launched in 2016. +10 is a touch over the full per unit price on bulk orders of the ax200 (I just bought a couple hundred recently) so they are saying they save nothing by keeping a 3168 on hand. WiFi cards have this happen a lot since they are one of the few things that are still modular in laptops and most people wouldn't even notice (well in this case they might since the 3168 is only 1x1 and the ax200 is 2x2).

That being said if you're planning on running Linux do know for the ax200 you'll want to be on/backported from 5.4+ and grab the latest microcode or it could be a bumpy ride.

I agree, this seems like a great value. I’m in the market for a Linux first laptop, I will have to consider this company.

There are tradeoffs with this machine compared to a Macbook Pro. Intel laptops also have twice as fast USB along with Thunderbolt 3. At 350 cd/m2 and 84% sRGB the relatively low resolution screen is also going to be darker with poor color reproduction.

However, in addition to the CPU power, and a sane configuration being half the price, the weight looks really good. At 1.4 kg (3.1 lbs) it weighs like a 13" MacBook Pro rather than a 15 or 16 inch one. I've found the difference between 3 and 4 lbs surprisingly noticeable if frequently moving the computer or commuting with it.

> There are tradeoffs with this machine compared to a Macbook Pro.

The MBP is the world's premier laptop and more than twice as expensive. I'd certainly expect so!

> There are tradeoffs with this machine compared to a Macbook Pro. Intel laptops also have twice as fast USB along with Thunderbolt 3.

On the other hand, this has a builtin HDMI port, ethernet port and the capacity for internal expansion (unlike the Macbook), so the performance for external expansion is a lot less relevant.

Who wants to carry around a bunch of overpriced dongles anyway?

> At 350 cd/m2 and 84% sRGB the relatively low resolution screen is also going to be darker with poor color reproduction.

I wish somebody would make laptops with high quality screens and low end everything else. Sometimes that's all you need.

Plus, the low end processors often have the best battery life.

Sadly, the plain MacBook doesn't have a low end price. :)

An upcoming ARM MacBook could be a great machine for a text editor, terminal, and browser, but I fear there will be new user limitations that block customizations like Karabiner and Hammerspoon that I would miss too much.

Decent Windows based machine prices out cheaper?

I thought I was very reasonably priced considering the 19%(!) tax is included.

A bit surprised by the amount of negative comments about the company in here, so I feel that I have to offer a different perspective: I ordered a 14" fanless linux laptop from them about one year ago and that's one of the best laptop I ever owned. It's fast, has a great mate screen of the right proportion, decent backlit keyboard with no crazy layout (which has become rare recently), better than average trackpad (although nothing like that of a Mac), good battery. Of course being fanless it is also 100% silent. And it runs Linux flawlessly (I've run debian and nixos on it).

Only downsides I can think of are the specific charger cord (as opposed to USB) and its large-ish besel which makes it a bit too large for comfortable use in planes or trains.

I also interacted with support at the time because I had not heard from UPS and I remember them as quite quick to answer and friendly.

Overall, I'm afraid this thread might leave readers with an unfair impression on the company. Maybe not all of their laptop have the same quality? Mine is actually a Clevo, branded as "infinitybook 14".

Just as an anecdotal counterpoint to all the negative reviews here: I have a 2015 Tuxedo notebook that is still going strong, and never had any issue with it. There is quite a bit of fan noise, which I don't hear as I'm typically using a noise-cancelling headset anyway. The keyboard is rather flimsy and the build quality is definitely not on par with Dell XPS or a T-series Lenovo, at least for this model: in my use case (using external keyboard and monitor 99% of the time) this is not an issue, so I'm (still) quite happy with it. As others have already said, the pricing is hard to beat and its Ubuntu setups are well configured.

I also had very positive interactions with their support staff; very friendly and knowledgeable. I have yet to see a piece of Tuxedo hardware fail, and know several people who are using their hardware (both laptops and workstations, which are even nicer and have a much better build quality IMO).

I bought a tuxedo laptop for my work but the experience has been very bad. I WOULD NOT recommend them.

They overturned the screws of the cooling fans with the cooling upgrade I ordered, and ordering spareparts is a hassle (Takes very long, sending constant reminders and getting sarcastic responses).

Tried to be smart guy and support FOSS suppliers in the process, but now I get laughed at at work for having the most ghetto laptop in the office.

Nice, except for the screen. FullHD is the new "barely adequate". But at least it is non-glare, not "bathroom-mirror" finish. The latter would be unacceptable due to workplace regulations here.

What regulations advise screen reflectivity?

Not the OP, but one example (UK specific but guided by European law) is The health and safety (display screen equipment) regulations 1992, as amended by the health and safety (miscellaneous amendments) regulations 2002 [1]

Under the heading Requirements for Work Stations (Reg 3. and schedule):

24 Regulation 3 requires workstations to meet the requirements of the Schedule, (subject to the proviso outlined below), which sets out minimum requirements for the display screen, keyboard, desk, chair, work environment (including working space, lighting, reflection and glare, noise, heat and humidity), task requirements and software. Requirements are set out in fairly general terms, eg "The seat shall be adjustable in height". The Schedule does not contain technical detail.

Paragraph 32 states that anti-glare filters must be provided by workplaces which use DSE (display screen equipment) which are capable of projecting glare.

[1] https://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/200-299/oc202_1.h...

helldritch already answered for the UK. In Germany there is the Arbeitsstättenverordnung, the appendix requires non-reflective desktop and laptop screens (6.3 (2) 3 and 6.4 (2) 1): https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbst_ttv_2004/anhang.htm...

There is also a similar European Union directive, however, that does not apply to laptops if they are used only infrequently (annex 1b): https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:01...

So while the rest of the world might differ, in the EU non-glare screens are usually required if you intend to sell to business customers.

In my country workplace regulations forbid working on laptop screen anyway - if a worker is supposed to work on computer for more than, iirc, 4 hours a day, then external screen is mandatory. And it's not really about a screen size, it's more that you are not supposed to be looking down, so the external screen top border must be at the same height as your eyes.

That's the make-or-break for me.

Without 4k, I'll move along.

With 4k, it'd probably be my next laptop.

With 4k and touch or pen, it'd definitely be my next laptop.

I have a Tuxedo Infinitybook pro 14 v4, fully maxed out. I love it. It's dirt cheap and everything works out of the box. I was a little concerned about moving from Mac to Linux but I can sync my phone, I can print, I can connect to all my bluetooth devices, external displays work nicely, it sleeps properly, battery life is Ok...

> 1x USB 3.2 Gen1 Typ-C (DisplayPort: no; Power Delivery: no)

So close. Why would you release laptop like this in 2020?

Isn't only 1 stick of RAM leaving a lot of perf on the table with these APU's not having dual channels?

Dang. This looks like something that could replace my aging T460s (which has a garbage trackpad, and cost over 2000 eur with all its 8GB of RAM; Linux keeps OOMing and freezing all the time[1]).

Ryzen 4000 series would be nice. 17" would be nice. But 3000 series Ryzen and 15.6" screen is already a decent upgrade over my Thinkpad with i7-6600U..

I'm feeling conflicted because it's obviously not a dream-come-true laptop, but the price point seems very very reasonable (and if I wait for the perfect laptop, I might have to wait forever).

[1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/8/4/15

Just this morning I found my laptop non-responsive and spinning the fan at full speed. I cut the power. It's probably been thrashing all night. In my case, "this little crisis" never lasts for just a few minutes, it'll last as long as I care to wait (I've waited hours and it never recovered).

EDIT: Specs say there's a 9-in-1 card reader, but in photos I only see a micro SD slot.. what am I missing?

not that its anything more than a bandaide, but I have found earlyoom to be immensely useful in cases like that.

https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom

Odd, I've had nothing but positive experiences with Linux on Thinkpads for 3 machines running (t61p, x220, now an x260).

Not sure what distro you're using, but from what I hear, a lot of the Fedora devs use Thinkpads, so if you're on a thinkpad, Fedora workstation is likely to be your best bet (which is what I've been using for quite a while now).

For me right now, the upcoming T14 is the thing to beat, even for a Linux laptop. Given its got a 4k screen and my anecdotally positive experience with the Linux/Thinkpad combo. So I don't know if I'll jump onto Tuxedo or System76.

I have a P50 and on:

- Ubuntu 18.04, I couldn't get the screen back after docking

- Fedora 31, it would crash at least every other time I brought it up from sleep. Also crashed after being on Zoom for more than an hour.

Just switched to Arch last night and so far so good (well after disabling hybrid graphics that is).

Why not just upgrade the ram? DDR4 is rather cheap these days. Alternatively you can try enabling ZRAM, which can save memory by using compression. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Improving_performance#Z...

How are you supposed to plug 2 screens? Graphic card description says it should be possible, but there is only one HDMI port for video output

USB-C?

The USB-C ports do not support DisplayPort.

Yeah that's a good question. The integrated video card supporting it isn't going to matter without ports. The USB Type-C port specifies that it does not support DisplayPort.

Ended up getting an e595 thinkpad with ryzen several months ago, flashed it with pop-os. Originally there was all kinds of problems; opening chrome would completely freeze the computer, the computer would not come out of suspend mode so I had to shut it down, battery life is probably less than 4 hours. With the latest pop-os everything is fine now.

If I were to do it again I would probably get an intel cpu for any laptop just because good battery life ended up being much more important than any cpu power gain for me. I definitely would have spent a little more on getting one pre-installed with linux just knowing it would have good hardware support. Older laptops seem to always work great, but anything new always has a chance of having some hardware issues.

Ryzen 4000 laptops promise to improve battery life to match Intel.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15624/amd-details-renoir-the-...

If you normalize for performance the ryzen 4000 laptops should have considerably better battery life than comparable intel models, at least while under load if not idle.

... Who would do that?

Most people want to know how long it lasts on a charge. If it lasted 30 minutes but was the cheapest, literally nobody would say "If you normalize for cost, it lasts the longest".

How long it lasts on a charge obviously depends on what you're doing with it. Normalizing for performance gives you the efficiency of the system for getting work done.

Compiling/testing software is part of my job, so whether a laptop can complete 200 compiles on battery power or 500 is something I care about. If you only care about how long a laptop can idle for under battery you might as well take a screenshot, print it out and you've got yourself a couple thousand years of 'battery life'.

Good point, but by context, wasn't GP talking about the same load?

If somebody says "The battery performance is poor" I don't assume they go from compiling all day to writing in Notepad when making the comparison - I assumed they meant "For the work the laptop was purchased for".

Compared to my HP ZBook from 2014:

Pro:

- No number pad, I really love this. I could finally align the center the laptop with my body.

- Smaller footprint, same screen size. Nice to have.

- Half the weight. Good.

- Much better battery. Nice to have.

- Lower price for the same configuration (32 GB / 2 TB.) Good.

Cons:

- No physical touchpad buttons. I really hate this.

- Generally awful reviews of the company in the other comments here. Probably a deal breaker.

I didn't investigate the self serviceability of the hardware and the availability of spare parts. The ZBook is great about that. I'm also used to next business day on site repairs from HP for the first 3 years. The last time the package cost about 100 Euro. That's important. I've got an old spare computer but I can't do everything there.

> Generally awful reviews of the company in the other comments here. Probably a deal breaker.

There are also good reviews in the thread. I'm sure we can find similar reviews about any other random laptop brand, except that there you pay the Microsoft tax and they aren't merely showing little love for techies' issues but instead never even heard of the word Linux and require that you reproduce issues on "a normal system like Windows" before they accept it could be their hardware that's faulty.

I don't have experience with Tuxedo Computers, but this is Germany. The EU warranty and 'remote purchase' laws ("koop op afstand", not sure how to translate) are quite excellent (even if the Dutch are better). It might be a headache to get issues fixed depending on how stubborn they are, but rotten apple stories about support is not something I'd generally reject European hardware for.

(I once had a drone from a company that was beyond stubborn, and while I wouldn't wish that experience upon anyone, I learned a lesson or two and now feel a lot more confident in dealing with companies unresponsive to warranty claims: they really don't have many options when you send them registered snailmail stating your claim and subsequent steps if they don't fulfill or refute the claim. If someone had told me to start doing that earlier instead of trusting promises to fix it or call me back or whatever, I'd have saved a lot of time, but I eventually realized how the game was to be played.)

> The EU warranty and 'remote purchase' laws [...] are quite excellent

There is a large difference between buying as a consumer and business/freelancer, though. If the laptop is outright terrible, but not technically _broken_, then there's not much you can do but eat the cost. Even selling it on eBay becomes complicated because now you have to follow EU law if a consumer buys it.

Written on a MacBook that I wish I could have returned...

Yeah, when you buy it for your work without paying taxes on it, you also don't get the consumer benefits. At least that's how it works in NL: if you buy it as a work necessity, you don't pay BTW/VAT/GST on it, but then you indeed don't get the 14 day "I changed my mind" period and I don't know how it works with the standard 2-year warranty.

In general though...

> If the laptop is outright terrible, but not technically _broken_

Then it depends on whether it is as advertised or, if a certain feature was not specified, as one may reasonably expect. In an extreme example, a washing machine that turns out to play annoying music while running is not as one should expect; or if it was advertised that it would play music but it doesn't... Finally, it depends on whether you talked to the merchant. Anything they said can be seen as "as advertised", though of course anything not in writing would be hard to prove.

So it depends on what you mean by "terrible". It sounds to me like you mean something worse than some annoyances or that it's a good laptop but doesn't fit your purpose (assuming that that the merchant did not claim it would do well for your purpose, if you explained your use case to them). You might have a case there, if you tell them as soon as you become aware of the defect(s).

Of course, there are also merchants that are simply nice and will let you exchange it for a product of similar value. I had that with my most recent laptop: in hindsight, I should just not have let the 14 days expire and I should have returned it without strings attached. (It was good hardware and I told myself that, with enough time and customization, I'd be able to work on Windows again since the Linux drivers didn't work at all. But after 3.5 weeks I was absolutely done with Windows.) I asked the merchant and they let me exchange it, but their laptop selection was limited (as with any store), and while I now got something I'm not perfectly happy with, it's still a lot better than the thing I initially had.

> ("koop op afstand", not sure how to translate)

buy remotely :)

Right, that's the literal translation, but is that the legal term for a purchase done over the phone or internet like it is in Dutch?

Edit: Via nl.wikipedia "wet koop op afstand" -> refers to the European law this implements -> https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/NL/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... -> English -> it's called a "distance contract". Not quite as descriptive as the Dutch term for it, not sure that's going to be very useful in common conversation.

Not sure if any representative from Tuxedo are reading. There are spelling mistakes;

Another highlight of the TUXEDO Book BA15 is its elegant and durable chassis, which is partly made of magnesium allow (AZ91D) (display cover as well as baseunit), while aluminum is used on the bottom panel.

Magnesium "Alloy", and "base unit". And in other places, "videostreaming",

On another note, if AMD have sufficient capacity right at launch for AMD Ryzen 5 3500U to be used by so many ODM models suggests it might not be doing so well in the Top 5 laptop brand which represent 80% of the market. And if you exclude Apple, it is close to 90%.

A bit confusing since the APUs are offset by a generation, by the 3500U is a 12nm GF Zen+ part that is over a year old at this point (the first models launched last spring). The new (significantly better) 7nm Zen2 APUs are the 4000 series, which have been trickling out in models since April.

Oh my bad. Yes I look at 3000 Series and immediately thought it was the 7nm Zen 2.

Still wished AMD had not used this marketing naming.

I've bought a Tuxedo as work laptop for my parents and they couldn't be happier. The hardware looks and works great and Tuxedo Linux runs effortless and does automatic updates.

I'd definitely recommend it.

How does Tuxedo Linux differ from vanilla Ubuntu?

It's pretty much a reskin only, with relevant software (i.e. modem) installed. It might be a different WM as well (I don't use Ubuntu Desktop so I can't compare) , but it's nothing too unusual.

now with 16:10 and ryzen 4000 series

Some bad reviews here, so I'd encourage people to look into some of the AMD APU laptops from Acer and others. I have an Acer Swift 3 with 2700u APU and it runs Linux (Ubuntu) flawlessly apart from the fingerprint reader. Suspend, function keys, everything works well, performance is absolutely unreal for the pricepoint (paid 900 something CAD when it came out).

Looks great. Hope they have a Ryzen 4000 model soon.

They say their US keyboard is ISO (tall Enter), not ANSI (wide Enter). Hopefully that's just a typo. Emailed them to ask.

https://support.getfreewrite.com/article/44-freewrites-physi...

It is probably not a typo, they are aware of the difference. Just read their support page. [0]

> Unless otherwise stated, TUXEDO always uses ISO standard keyboards. Other standards, such as ANSI, are available depending on the model, but are also marked as such.

Browsing from the EU, I am not seeing an ANSI option on the linked 15" or either of the 14" models. It seems they're not capitalising on the enthusiast developer segment.

[0] https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Infos/Help-Support/Freque...

Darn. Yeah, they confirmed the "US" layout is ISO.

Hmm, seems a bit steep, price-wise. I am writing this on a cheap ($500ish USD) Asus VivoBook w/ a Ryzen 7 3700U and Vega 10 gfx, it runs Ubuntu 20.04 without any problems. The display is a bit dim, and it really ought to do usb-c pd, but it was a bargain, so I can't complain too much.

Hard to justify spending €860 on a no-name brand when I can buy a Dell Inspiron 15 3000 with the same spec for €550.

Ok, it comes with Windows 10 and it doesn't have a backlit keyboard but neither of those things are deal breakers if I'm saving €300.

Can anyone describe how a magnesium chassis compares to an aluminum chassis?

I just wish laptop designers would stop copying Macbook form factor.

I'm with you. I don't want a knockoff macbook, I want a modernized T420 thinkpad with a huge battery and a good keyboard.

Id need a sim card slot implemented in order to consider thinking about buying this laptop. I'm a Thinkpad user and my last and my current laptop are equipped with one and it's such a convenience to have connectivity on demand without sacrificing the phone's battery.

In order to actually buy this laptop, I'd really need it to have the trackpoint. Implemented not like HP does it sometimes, or Dell, but like Lenovo does it. The response and overall feel of the trackpad is the best among the options I have tried so far.

Other present specs are more than fine.

no trackpoint available :-(

Feel you mate

Single channel RAM? What’s this nonsense

Comes with an Intel wifi card if I'm not mistaken. Maybe update the title?

It's optional.

I have to take up the cudgels on behalf of Tuxedo.

Tuxedo is a small company, not far from Munich, Germany. They have specialized on assembling customized laptops that are guaranteed to work nicely with Linux. They are owned by Schenker. You can think of them as the Linux department of Schenker.

I bought a Tuxedo XUX707 almost 4 years ago, which they built to my ridicolous specs: a desktop (!sic) i7-7700, GTX 1060, 32 GB RAM, 2x 2TB SSHD, 17" 4K monitor, 1x HDMI, 2x DP. I need a computer that has the performance of a desktop PC, but that I can take along once in a while if I have to. The cooling of the Tuxedo is superb, the screen is fantastic, sound is good, keyboard is ok, touchpad not so much. This "laptop" is bulky and heavy and makes only 3 hours on the battery and of course it is like this, because the cooling needs space - the CPU alone consumes up to 65 Watts. Who else would build you such an unreasonable device, Linux-ready, with a 4 year warranty (extra option)? I love this beast more than any computer I had before and the price is unbelievably cheap compared to a Dell or Lenovo or a MacBook with similar specs.

I run a second 4K monitor connected to one of the 3 video outlets and have currently 16 USB devices connected. I later added a M.2-SSD-drive (there is space for one more).

After two years I dropped the computer and the body cracked - not bad, the computer continued to run nicely.

After three years the GPU developed issues - random black screen on boot, which disappeared after a couple of restarts. It took me some while to diagnose the problem and make sure that the NVIDIA card was the culprit. I contacted Tuxedo support. They answered within 24 hours, had me run a system report script (which I could inspect before), and sent me the stickers for free mailing of the device to their headquarter. I asked, if I could send the device without HDs and SSDs and they were happy with this and told me, that they make the tests with prepared SSDs of their own. The device was checked, they confirmed a damaged GPU and decided to replace it as guarantee item without costs. I asked them, if they would replace the cracked body parts in the process and that I would pay for this. They agreed. All communications was per email and with fast response times. Just a summary: they agreed to process my device with no storage devices, made no trouble because of the cracked body and quickly deciced to replace a GPU that had random issues. Try this with Apple!

It got even better: when the device came back, I put in my storage devices and everything was working perfectly.

The body was completely replaced (two parts) for 60,- Euro. No assembly costs.

They noticed a Kensington adapter in the housing that I had forgotten about, removed it from the broken part and returned it in a separate bag.

I had no idea that the M.2-slot could be connected to a dedicated heat pipe so I never installed a heatpad for it. They found, though - although I had removed all storage devices - from my system report, that I used to have a M.2 device built in (which was not part of the original computer) and put the missing heatpad in place.

Finally, obviously because of all the nerdy stickers on my cover, they included a bag with more nerdy stickers and some Linux magazines.

The service procedure was not fast: they check the problem at Tuxedos Headquarter in Augsburg, then send it to Schenker in Leipzig for the replacement and assembly, send it back to Augsburg for final quality control before they deliver the device back to the customer. For me this is not a big problem: if the computer is away for more than 24 hours, I have to switch to a backup computer anyway (in this case a Lenovo W520). Tuxedo does not have the size and logistics for super fast service. But the quality of the service, in my experience, was stunning.

I hate myself for saying this, but guys, just get someone to fix up the English around the website. It can't be that difficult. Looks like a great product, aimed at a specific niche, I think details matter

> Looks like a great product, aimed at a specific niche, I think details matter

Maybe you should fix up your own English first. ;)

There’s at least a misplaced comma there and two missing dots.

Because of the weird phrasing of some sentences, my first thought was "hmm, something interesting from China?". Then I saw the price is in Euros, then I found that it's a German company.

What I mean is, it's a sales page, in English, presumably for English speakers. Appearances matter, and this one's easy to fix.

Some people like feedback, although I admit my comment was poorly written. English is not my first language, either, and I like when people point out my mistakes.

It's a small shop in a mid-sized town in southern German - just give them some slack...

I bought hardware from them. they don't deserve slack (sadly)

I mean, I could rewrite the whole website in a couple of hours at most... I buy from AliExpress and it always baffles me why most listings are so poorly written. I've even offered to rewrite them properly but got no replies :D

Sales copy matters when someone views your website, it can increase conversion by a noticeable margin. And it's easy to fix, just get some American or British writer, maybe give them a discount on a new machine, I dunno :)

>ATTENTION: To use our store you have to activate JavaScript and deactivate script blockers! Thank you for your understanding! <

too bad i thought it would be a good place but not from this angle

2020 might be The Year of the linux desktop

The year of the Linux Desktop will be when Microsoft offers transparent support for it with WSL.

Getting a 500... anyone have a mirror?

I stopped buying Linux only computers after buying a System76. I'll never make that mistake again.

Wow, from the EU (no hassle with expensive shipping, either initially or for warranty) and 830 euros for a laptop that would usually cost me ~1000 because manufacturers usually force Microsoft tax, a GPU, and a new SSD on you (I don't want a dedicated GPU but they always have one when the CPU is reasonable; and I don't want an SSD because I already have my own). This is pretty neat indeed!

The only nitpicks are:

- a keyboard with a short left shift which doesn't work as well for my hands (I worked with it every day for 6 months while writing PHP, i.e. constant stretching to get to the $ symbol, but couldn't get used to it) and no numpad despite being a 15" laptop, and

- the battery can't be taken out. My current laptop (2 years old) has the same issue and it already lost 25% capacity because I use it as a desktop much of the time and it's charged at 100% capacity all day long. With my 2012 laptop I'd just pop out the battery at ~40-70% charge: it takes 4 seconds (I didn't need to look or turn it over) and after 5 years of use the battery reported having lost 3% capacity. I don't trust that number, that's too good to be true with 2012 battery tech, but the runtime from 100%-0% was still about half of what it was originally (and I used the battery daily, either for standby mode between classes or on the train where I would, of course, have a deeper discharge cycle than when near a power source).

But compare that to all the plus points that I see that many other reasonably-priced (<1200 euro) laptops don't always have:

+ No new SSD, a GPU, or Microsoft tax forced on you (as mentioned)

+ WiFi 6

+ reasonably-priced 16 or 32GB RAM option

+ RJ45 connector without needing an adapter

+ No Intel

+ Big battery

+ The up/down arrow keys are not shoved into a single (split) key! I don't know who ever thought that was a good idea

+ Pgup/dn/home/end are nicely reachable. Though I noticed it's actually not a big deal to have them under Fn+arrow keys, I remember how much I got used to my Asus EEE 1215n having this layout. While using that laptop, I'd miss the layout even on a desktop keyboard where the keys are further away.

~ Screen brightness is specified (most of the time, you just have to hope that the screen is readable in sunlight, though I used to work outside more when I had a public transport route with switches so it's not very relevant for me now)

~ USB-C capabilities mentioned, even if both displayport and power delivery modes are a "no" it's good to know

~ earphones and microphone jack in one. Nice sometimes; super annoying when you want a separate mic or some other device that uses the mic jack. I should just find a splitter for that I guess, no getting around that anymore.

All in all, this is a steal and I'm considering getting one just to be rid of my crappy Lenovo Ideapad (maybe I'll donate it to one of these organisations that provide kids with laptops for corona-related homeschooling), but I don't technically need it...

> + Screen brightness is specified (most of the time, you just have to hope that the screen is readable in sunlight, though I used to work outside more when I had a public transport route with switches so it's not very relevant for me now)

Luminance: 321 cd/m² (aka 321 nits)

That isn't bright enough for working outside. Macbooks are 500nits, iPads are 600nits. I'd pay extra for an option that went to 1000nits (HP elitebook dragonfly / MSI are offering this).

Good point, I should change that to a ~ instead of a + because it's good that they mention it even if the value is not what one might hope.

I very much suspect this is a relabeled Qinghua Tongfang machine.

Almost all OEM laptops with 4* Ryzens are made by them.

For $100 more you could get a laptop with a solid gpu and dual boot it.

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