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runawaybottle

Well in that case, Microsoft is really targeting developers.

VSCode, Typescript, Github, WSL, the inevitable tie into Azure...

I wonder how this all ends.

We can short circuit some of the inevitability I guess, still holding out for this: https://panic.com/nova/

Looks like Deno already adopted Typescript, but the world doesn’t have to revolve around Github.

AWS and Azure will keep each other honest.

Edit: I’ll add that I really really don’t think Microsoft wants to proselytize developers into it’s ecosystem just to make apps for Windows. I really think they are going to try mobile again.

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Hypothetically, if they're able to provide a seamless developer ecosystem -- and a corresponding target platform for those developers to deploy to -- then they can guide the direction of the next wave of applications, and they may be able to incentivize and pick winners within it.

My fear is that we're in for a tedious decade where we see unironically-announced re-implementations of every existing iOS, Android, and Linux desktop application against this upcoming target platform, with corresponding re-occurrences of previously-seen bugs and security vulnerabilities to match.

I'd prefer to learn that we're going to standardize on open web technologies for delivery of software, and that for each case there'll be at least a few mature open source applications or libraries that fit the bill -- and that all that amazing developer capability and productivity is directed towards maintaining and enhancing those, instead of re-inventing them.

We'll see.

Right, we definitely would prefer the acceptance of open web technologies vs the shepherding into particular domains.

I mentioned in another comment, it’s nowhere near a stretch to see Typescript extended and compiled down to C#, where suddenly we are all on the .NET stack because we all got shepherded via Typescript. It can happen that fast.

Then we’ll forget what basic JavaScript is because we’re so used to scaffolding with .NET UI Kits and server apis. How vulnerable is the web community to this? Pretty vulnerable, a lot of us are tied into React or Angular or Vue, or even in more specific cases tied into a UI library like Material. Apologies for the narrow web centric perspective, I know there is a world outside of web :p

If I had to takeover with my stack, this is exactly how I’d do it.

I'm not following this train of thought.

First of all C# doesn't run in the browser without compiling to WASM which has all sorts of caveats.

Second, I don't see how the fact that one could compile TS to C# would suddenly put everyone "on the .NET stack". Does the same risk exist if we can compile JS to C#? Which would work about just as well (i.e. not). And TS is also open source and produces reasonably readable JS, so it's not like there's even any lock-in.

Wouldn't it make more sense to be worried about compiling C# or other languages to WASM? Which I'm also not worried about.

Your points are all valid, my concern is mostly that it’s a multi phase plan. We will get closer to something like that as we are shepherded.

Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno? No, you thought it was something that you might or might not use depending on the situation. Well guess what, that choice is gone for you in Deno’s case. These things compound.

It’s one of the reasons you will see people make a simple blog site with create-react-app, they are so inoculated with the hammer that everything is a nail. Did we think we’d be using React like that and forgo style sheets? Just inline all styles? That’s what we all do now. I had no idea we’d become that nuts, but it happened.

It’s not particularly bad in all cases, but for the web it is because we’ll stop using standard technologies that are supported across all types of scenarios.

Did you think Typescript would be the native language in Deno?

Yes? I thought that was the whole point. Actually I'm confused about the use of "native" here. It supports running both TS and JS files? And the TS files must be compiled to JS before they can be run anyway. So I'm not seeing any choice that was lost.

That’s what we all do now

I mean, some people do, but I don't. Not everyone uses React / Vue / etc, and afaik it's only React that is forgoing stylesheets. And it's not like stylesheets are dead or that styling elements through JS is non-standard. (I do use Vue, with stylesheets)

At this point Deno is really more of a counter-example to our grim dystopian Microsoft-only future: it's built in Rust (Mozilla) with userspace Typescript (Microsoft) running on V8 (Google).

I hold out hope for the nascent Deno community to find some way to build in Swift as a core language, too...

Not to forget LinkedIn, which is now being deeply integrated with O365, which has gained MyAnalytics (or whatever it's called) which is for all intents an automated "productivity" tracking software that aims to capture the time you're working, who you work with and how you spend your time.

I wonder when that data will be exposed on LinkedIn (hey recruiters, this guy is working late hours a lot!).

And then the eventual integration of that dystopian system with MS's developer monopoly. Now we have a truly "boring dystopia".

The worst part is: MS now has all the tools for this and more.

Microsoft wants nothing more than a world full of .NET developers.

I've been waiting for the integration of active directory and linkedIn. It seems only a slight stretch to think of using corporate data and social data for cross-validation of true Identity.

Worst case (MS moves to bad-acting), re: Deno—TypeScript can at least be forked for now https://github.com/Microsoft/TypeScript

I'd love to see Mozilla hop on board with it

What happens when Typescript gets extended and able to compile down to C#? Then it just makes sense to use a .NET stack.

Javascript ecosystem extinguished. Everybody will forget how to write on the open web platform.

_Yawn_. Wake me up on this thread when Blink/Webkit switch to .NET from V8/JavaScriptCore. Javascript (and thus Typescript as a higher-order lang) is _useful_ on mobile (hi, react-native) and the desktop, sure, but we're clearly a _long_ way from replacing JS in the browser.

Witness the delightful, slow-motion failure to launch that was Dart...

I hope you are right, it took no time for Typescript to catch on, and got ordained in Deno.

And the Deno team moved from Golang to Rust for their implementation. Maybe that will result in some interesting developments.

I prefer to think of this as Ryan Dahl choosing Mozilla over Google, whatever the relative merits of Golang vs. Rust.

Not that it matters, but I think it's much more likely he chose Rust specifically for the language features over Go. A lot of Rust's type-system and semantics are inspired by ML-family languages which are well-known to be great for writing parsers, etc.

At the initial presentation, Ryan mentioned that a move from Go to Rust was a possibility due to a few things, and they were related to the languages themselves, not to Mozilla vs Google or something.

(And, IMHO, saying that Rust is a Mozilla thing is just plain incorrect.)

At this point I'd _rejoice_ if someone could offer a credible alternative to Javascript for web (and other browser-based/cross-platform mobile) dev. Google tried and utterly failed with Dart; Microsoft embraced JS via Typescript (extend and extinguish, sure, whatever; TS is fantastic); Facebook embraced JS via React (and React Native on mobile, though they've since pulled back a bit from that...); and Apple is predictably absent from the room.

There's pretty much no one left in the conversation who could credibly move us past an endless JS-only future of progressively-more-TS-like ES20XXs at this point...

It's sad to me that nobody would consider a new option unless a FAANG, or otherwise huge company, were backing it.

maybe...

microsoft, and apple also, should make desktop native apps easier to develop. and stop with the mobile chase.

only apps from the top 10 in every app store are used on a daily basis. customers are not willing to use anything else, unless required to -- i.e. bank, insurance, etc.

on the other hand, we are always willing to give an improved desktop app a try.

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