Hacker News Reader

Comment by starpilot | Hacker News Reader

Festool is also insanely expensive, like the Arcteryx of tools. My local specialty lumberyard also sells Festool, and no other tool brands.

View on HN

Brands like Festool and Hilti are aimed squarely at professionals doing high-volume work. You're paying for the warranty, spare parts guarantee, and system compatibility as much as you are for the tool itself.

In both cases I get the impression that if it were financially viable, they'd prefer to only do fleet sales and maintenance.

Hitachi nailers are another tool I'd add to the "strictly professional" category. Their framing nailers are built like light boat anchors and you can use them the same way you'd use a sledgehammer in some applications. We would routinely use the back of the nailgun to move the wall around if it wasn't quite on target.

For personal use they are a bit overkill, but only if your cheaper tools don't break after 3 years.

The professionals I know generally all use a couple expensive tools from Hiltl or Festool etc over time. They can justify a new machine on a single job that pays ~8k, the time saved with the right tool is often already worth it.

And of course they are smart enough to know when they can use the "best long-lasting & cheap" tools instead of the high-end equivalents. I'm looking at you Makita PJ7000 which I bought for 150.- vs a Lamello that will be >500.- or a Festool Domino for 1k.

"best long-lasting & cheap" is spot on. Often, getting the very best is not worth it, no matter how long they might last.

We had a lot of work done on our house a few years back, and every one of tradesmen used Makita. I asked our carpenter if they were really good, and he said no, but they we pretty good, lasted quite well, but didn't cost the earth.

I think the ubiquity of Makita also made it easy to swap batteries and chargers between kit, and between people.

Electrician here: Last place I worked was almost exclusively Makita (and they were big, thousands of employees), and being able to swap chargers and batteries was both a blessing and a curse. I took good care of my batteries (and everything else), and I had to be careful not to end up with some other guys battery that he'd used to drive nails with.

Please tell me that people were not using the batteries as hammers.

Driving any fastener can put put of wear on batteries fast, the current requirements are high and peaky. Nails are particularity bad because unlike say, driving a screw or bolt you often don't even give they battery a second or two of break time to cool slightly while you line up your bit to the next fastener, just "BAM BAM BAM" down the line of wood as fast as you can until you drain the battery back to nil.

This is one of the the best ways to kill li-ion cells fast.

The usual method of driving a nail with a battery isn't by turning on a tool.

By far the safest though, but still very hard on the batteries.

https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/XNB02Z

lol, pretty standard on site mate, especially during demo - some screws are just a bit too captive, quick whack with your battery (in the impact driver) does the trick.

It is so common that tool manufacturers have it as a load case in their design.

Think of a soldier to use the butt of his rifle in close quarters. This spares a bullet too. Not sure if savings are comparable in case of the battery, but you get the idea.

Some times you need to do a bit of percussive problem solving, and battery powered tools are heavy, so you do what you gotta do.

The converse of Maslow's hammer is such a common scenario that Wera actually sells a ratchet designed to be used as a hammer (think mechanic working under a car): https://www-us.wera.de/en/great-tools/koloss/

They're kind of a dud because the extra bulk on the head gets in the way so often. I have one I never use.

The vise grip crescent wrench on the other hand...

You can also get an adjustable crescent wrench with a hammer on the opposite side of the head. It's known colloquially to viewers of the AvE YouTube channel as the "thumb detecting nut fucker"

Every tool has a hammer end.

This is remedied with Bluetooth batteries that only work when paired to the owner's phone.

Makita worm-drive saws were nice because they were about half a pound lighter than even the Skilsaw with the magnesium case(HD77). This makes a difference when leaning out over the second floor of a house cutting rafter tails.

Have you tried the cordless mag 77s? I'm curious to know if going cordless in those situations would make the weight less important, the same way AirPods sort of magically stay in my ear better without a cord tugging on them.

I'm currently trying to decide which vendor/battery system to buy into for the long run. Festool/Hilti are too high end for DIY/Hobby. I'm looking at De Walt/Makita and leaning towards Makita.

Yeh me and and most of the people I work with are on Makita (in Aus). Otherwise Milwaukee is quite popular, especially among the sparkies.

My wife bought a Ridgid drill with a promo kit of four batteries. The chuck eventually wore out, but the local Ridgid repair shop replaced it for us for $30 (would have been free if we’d registered for warranty). Because we had all those batteries, we were sucked into the ecosystem: cordless sawzall, impact driver, etc. They sell “naked” tools (no battery) at a significant discount. Definitely worth looking into, we’ve been exceptionally happy with the kit we’ve slowly been growing.

Edit: in Canada. Not sure if they’re the same elsewhere.

Honestly for hobby use I would definitely recommend ryobi. Reason being, they haven't changed their battery design in absolute ages. So, you can take a old drill that was originally ni-cad and use brand new batteries without an adapter. They have updated battery chemistry, so obviously you need to change chargers when you get new batteries, but at least you don't need to re-buy all your tools as well.

They definitely aren't pro-grade, but I've put fairly heavy use on mine over the last 9 years and the only tool that failed was a flashlight. Wore out 3 batteries that I took good care of, but buying $200 in batteries & charger is way better than $1k in batteries+tools.

The only real problem is they look cheap, so if you are into showing off then that is a negative.

I used Dewalt tools at my last mechanic job, and I honestly didn't think they were better enough to justify the price (2-3x ryobi). I haven't used makita, but the Dewalt drills would only survive 2-3 5 foot falls onto concrete, and the chucks were really crappy. My ryobi drill has survived probably 5 falls of the same type, and is still functional. The only real complaint I have is that the plastic absorbs grease, so if you use them in automotive/machine shop environments they start to look really grungy.

My rule of thumb is midrange for battery powered tools, and more expensive for corded tools that I expect to last me a lifetime. I went with Ryobi for the former and I’m really happy with them. I’ve had one battery go bad, but otherwise no issues at all and I love the variety of tools. In addition to the normal set you’d expect we have a pump for our hot tub, a tire inflator, and a handheld vacuum.

Also a happy Ryobi user. Even more so after I stumbled on [1] from Slickdeals; they rotate through a ton of Ryobi stock (factory blemished and refurbished) and I haven't ran into any duds yet. Between that site and frequent Home Depot specials, I've been able to build out a solid kit for far less than I expected.

I'm sure other brands funnel factory rejects and refurbs somewhere, as well. But I'm not sure where that is.

[1] https://www.directtoolsoutlet.com/

Electronic tools wise, I've been happy with the worx power share platform, but for a gas chainsaw, I have definitely become sold on Makita.

My dad used Makita battery tools exclusively for ~30 years of being a self employed radio communication tech. He stuck with them because he could still get chargers and batteries for the oldest drills, the ones with the stick battery that goes all the way into the handle like a handgun magazine.

I borrowed his tools many times over the years, and I've never been let down by anything made by Makita.

Any of those will be good the only difference is what tools you can get. I bought Dewalt because a local store carries their chainsaw, and either Milwaukee doesn't have a chainsaw or my local store doesn't carry it. Local store is important because more than once I've needed a new tool for a job today. I'm a fan of makita tools but I can't find them on my small town so I only have plug in tools that I bought well in advance.

"I'm looking at De Walt/Makita and leaning towards Makita."

I went with Dewalt solely because this device exists:

https://www.dewalt.com/products/storage-and-gear/generators-...

So, you've already got the batteries, and you already need a place to charge the batteries - why not get the added bonus of a true 15-amp portable generator while you're at it ?

It's not true sine wave, but it's quite robust - I have powered decent sized compressors, etc. with it.

Makita and DeWalt are more or less equivalent, but I’m using DeWalt 20V (and corded miter saw) for few (subjective) reasons:

* Looks like DeWalt bundles are priced better.

* Looks like DeWalt has better variety of tools in 20V.

* DeWalt is sold at both Home Depot and Lowes, so you run into more sales and has better chance of picking up required tool (and, importantly, accessories) on the short notice.

* Amazon has good DeWalt sales for the Prime Day, etc.

In particular for corded miter saw DeWalt 779 is just a great deal. I upgraded it with the light kit and got DeWalt portable stand.

Since these tools really last, there is no need to get cheaper versions if you can afford it.

For really rare-use tools or accessories I get cheap Porter Cable (ironically owned by same holding as DeWalt) or chinese knock-offs from Harbor Freight.

You have to be careful with the tool bundles.

The tools in the bundle aren't necessarily the same as their stand-alone look-alikes.

I went with Makita without a whole lot of research, but I like that have a wide line of tools. I recently bought their weed wacker, and I'm thinking I'll eventually replace my plug-in lawn mower with their battery powered one.

Makita has had the same battery setup for a good long while now (the 18v batteries are something like 15-16 years old), and they have a ton of really good, well thought out tools in the 18v (same as DeWalt 20v) lineup.

Plus, the higher power tools still use the same batteries, just two, rather than forcing you to but yet another set of batteries. I wasn't as impressed with dewalt's tool lineup.

I think they are more expensive, but I’ve had a Bosch small drill driver that I’ve used regularly for over 10 years now. Still use the two original batteries although I do have to switch them on the charger more often. At work we use Bosch battery tools too. Our chief electrician just bought his own set because as he pointed out, some of them have been in use for years and oil field roughnecks aren’t known to be kind to their tools. Whatever you buy make sure it comes with two batteries so you can use one and charge the other.

My shop (electrical) uses Makita for the vast majority of power tools, but we have some Hilti hammer drills and Hilti BX3 battery fastener, because they’re worth the money.

Particularly the battery powered fastener (BX3), it can shoot a 22 ga nail into steel or concrete quietly which means we can do that work in occupied buildings during the day instead of at night.

The best recommendation I’ve ever heard was to buy as cheap as you can, and then pay attention to what you actually use. Whatever tools in the “regular use” category break first should be replaced with the nicest tool in that category you can afford.

Of course if you’re a professional carpenter or similar, chances are you’re already aware about what you need to spend more on.

Don't go too cheap. Mid grade tools work well in general. Cheap tools are often so bad that the frustration they cause is worse than the help, or worse you think it is you not the tool and spend money hiring someone to do what you really could do yourself if your tools were up to the job.

I don't think anyone capable of doing a job ever hired out a job because the tool they had at the start wasn't good enough. They just went and bought the better tool.

Maybe a few people have done that in situations where the cost of the different tool is thousands and much more than paying someone with the tool (e.g. difference between a chainsaw mill and a proper industrial sawmill or a three bag mixer and a concrete plant and fleet of trucks). It's certainly not a situation most DIYers ever run into though.

Bad advise for current tools: you need to settle on the battery system, since batteries are expensive. I.e. once you start replacing, it’s going to be a single brand, but the trick that you can get great set of batteries and tools as a bundle at large discount. DeWalt in particular, and others, often have great bundles and sales. So if you more or less know what you need, you can get good quality tools at discount by choosing correct bundle, replacing them one by one would be way more expensive.

They’re getting rarer, but you can still generally find corded handheld tools for significantly cheaper than the battery versions. If you’re working somewhere that has a power feed, they can make good trial versions.

I needed a drill. I wanted to buy a cordless drill, but I chose to buy a corded drill instead. 20+ years later, I am using the same drill. I wonder how many iterations of cordless I would have bought over that time.

They are pricey, but I would describe them more like the Apple of power tools. They have an ecosystem of tools and accessories that work together, and because they have a relatively small and consistent product line 3rd parties also make a lot of accessories that increase the utility of the tools. They are expensive compared to many other handheld power tools, but if you want something that just works and is pleasant to use then it can be worth the price.

I would not call it insanely expensive, if you compare a Bosch Glide miter saw with the kapex, yes there is a difference, but it's not insane. The same goes for other festool tools like their sanders, compare them to Rupes, Flex or any other high quality brand and the differences are marginal.

Fun, unrelated fact: The Bosch Axial Glide saws use a Sarrus linkage[0], which is the oldest perfect straight line linkage.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarrus_linkage

The Festool dust extractors are similar to what you describe. I got one for list price, a bit over $700. It's quiet, has an accessory outlet that can turn the vac on, has an option for a remote, has big wheels so it doesn't get hung up when you pull it around. Etc.

The Festool is noticeably more than even the very good competitors - I think the Bosch is about $150 less, and there are others that are a bit more than the Festool.

But it's not like there's a $200 shop vac that's almost as good. There are such shop vacs -- but they're a different product entirely.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com