Hacker News Reader

Comment by no_wizard | Hacker News Reader

Wonder if some macOS only software will get ported to Windows once this happens. That if course is assuming there’s good support for the Windows APIs for building apps

View on HN

It’s really the extensive Apple frameworks that make a Mac or iOS app — the layer written in Swift that’s not using UIKit or AVFoundation, etc, is probably minimal in comparison.

So, direct ports are unlikely to be made that much easier, but it definitely opens the door to more code sharing.

Plus, Swift is a really nice language — great to see it getting more adoption.

More likely Apple will just write server-side Swift code that we never see. I really hope they open some, the linux ecosystem for Swift is a little small

i only know of a couple of server side swift software and one of them by IBM was discontinued.

IBM's Kitura was never as popular as Vapor or Perfect. Plus, once Apple released SwiftNIO, much of the things people did use Kitura for were made redundant.

dunno about "never see." The last big server-side thing they made (to the best of my knowledge) is SwiftNIO, it's open source, and that was a huge deal for the Vapor project.

Apple is strengthening their services revenue. They week profit from the extra reach. Also, people will continue to but their hardware because the alternatives aren’t that great

Simple example.... the MacBook trackpad

Ten years ago when I was offered a choice, I told the office manager I wanted a MacBook because of the trackpad.

Apple’s trackpads are even better now. How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology?

How has nobody figured out Apple’s 2010s trackpad technology?

I think because the focus is so much on the trackpad technology itself, which may be a misplaced focus. My fear is that the solution may involve rearchitecting the entire application-GUI stack to get it working on Linux. Why? Because Apple's trackpad is not a mouse emulator, it's a first class input device all the way up to the application. Trying to make the driver really smart is fruitless if you throw out all of that rich information and try to reduce the inputs down to what a mouse is capable of.

Eh, I think you're overblowing it a bit. While Apple's trackpad does do some unique things (like Chinese character input[1]), most of the behavior that people are interested in emulating here can be reduced to the cursor position, click events, and (high-resolution) scroll events. The only part of this that isn't currently available on Linux, AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical.

[1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/chinese-input-method/use-tra...

As someone who's put a ridiculous amount of effort into mouse-specific user experience, I agree. Apple's only physical/technical advantages are resolution and accuracy (and they only have that because they have software that justifies the cost). The real advantage is they spent research and engineering hours, LOTS of them, determining how to give the best user experience for the majority of their users, including users coming from other platforms with other expectations.

> AFAIK, is the scrolling bits, and even that isn't critical.

It seems that this is in fact the chief complaint of the folks who commented above you. It seems like they're saying that they choose to purchase alternative goods because of that behavior. That seems critical to me, no?

Most of the complaints I've heard about non-Apple trackpads focus more on pointing behavior -- finger tracking, pointer acceleration, palm rejection, etc. -- than scrolling.

That’s because those are old complaints. It’s a moving target though. People are still complaining about problems that were solved over a decade ago in macOS. Now there are a bunch of new features (described in my other comments) that need to be added if you want an experience as smooth and intuitive as macOS on a recent MacBook.

It isn't just that. The scrolling in macOS is 2D (you can scroll a small rectangle inside a large one in any direction) and has position, velocity, acceleration, and a bounce effect on the boundaries of the content area. Additionally, you can pinch to zoom (in and out) and the zooming is smooth and continuous centred on the cursor location.

There are also various 3-finger swipe gestures, and force touch lets you click on things with different levels of force to do different things.

The only Linux application I've seen that uses smooth scrolling with acceleration is Firefox, and that isn't nearly as smooth as macOS scrolling (which is available in every application).

Two-axis scrolling isn't unique to macOS. The way that scrolling has traditionally been implemented on Linux (as mouse buttons 4 and 5) makes it difficult to implement any kind of continuous scrolling, but once you have one axis working, a second one isn't much harder.

The velocity and bounce effects on scrolling are implemented at the application layer. They don't depend on any unique features of the trackpad hardware or driver stack.

Zoom and swipe gestures are nice to have, but I don't think they're critical in the same kind of way that pointing and acceleration are.

Force Touch is more of a gimmick than anything. It's a relatively recent feature, and was only added to the Macbook Air in 2018; very few applications do anything interesting with it. Personally, I leave it turned off.

The velocity and bounce effects on scrolling are implemented at the application layer. They don't depend on any unique features of the trackpad hardware or driver stack.

I didn’t say they did. Oh macOS they’re not implemented by the application though, they’re implemented by the UI APIs and thus available to all applications for free. This is not the case on Linux.

It is the case on Linux. Both GTK and Qt have this built in for a while now:

https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkScrolledWindow.ht...

https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qscroller.html

Why it's not working on your applications is a different question.

The Force Touch trackpad was introduced in 2015. My 2015 MacBook Pro has one. I rarely use the “harder press” feature, but I love the adjustable click pressure (lightest setting for me), and how the same pressure anywhere on the trackpad works (as opposed to hinged models). I’m ruined for any other laptop just due to the excellent trackpad.

It’s used for drawing and illustration. Art is not a gimmick,

ArtIsts are one of apples most important cohorts. People here so condescending but why pretend like people don’t care about art or gaming?

Folks care far more about using their computer to make art than hating on Swift or Electron

It does involve the whole stack as explained here: https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/

Luckily Linux is closer to figuring it out than Windows and I'm watching several issues on libinput and wayland which are trying to address it.

They don't care because, for all of the faults of Apple's desktop/laptop strategy, the non-Apple strategy continues to be "copy form factor, invest nothing in user experience".

Edit: I knew this would get downvotes, but it's true in my experience. The closest exception is Microsoft themselves, and even then their hardware focus is limited and mostly intended as a demonstration for their OS customers.

Agreed but with touchscreens the trackpad isnt so important.

So true.

I was talking to someone also in lockdown and she's in the market for a new laptop or iPad/keyboard.

She also wants to play games with family and friends and that's when she realized multiplayer and games in general on iOS and Mac were not a strength at all.

IMO, Apple's above-average hardware (at times, not all keyboards) is severely hurt by the lack of real gaming options on Mac or iOS.

I think that is even more glaring now in our present circumstances.

I dunno IMO the macbook trackpad is not good,

RSI inducing tap to click barely works and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture to each their own though

the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage

> RSI inducing tap to click [...]

How does tap to click induce RSI? Surely it's easier on your wrist and hand than having to press a button with force.

> [...] tap to click barely works

That experience doesn't seem to square with most peoples' experience.

> [...] and you have to enable a horribly implemented accessibility options just to drag with a gesture

I'm guessing you mean that it's annoying that dragging with three fingers is hidden inside the Accessibility preference pane rather than more sensibly placed in Trackpad preferences.

It's true, that's a dumb place to put it — but that doesn't impact whether or not the MacBook trackpad itself is good, which is what you were asserting.

> the reflective screens they put on those things also cause eye damage

Okay, now you're just ranting.

When I started writing my Mac app, I made the somewhat nervous decision of going with Swift. So I am really quite excited to hear this news, since getting onto Windows is something I've always thought about as a possible future direction. Of course, there would be a ton of work to do, since many frameworks like Core Data etc are only available on Apple platforms…

Reply on news.ycombinator.com