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I own an export factory in Shenzhen and we buy acceptable quality kn95 masks for our staff PPE in low volumes of a few hundred or so masks per order, for 10-11 RMB each, ~$1.6 USD/mask. While there is a variance in quality standards depending on the manufacturer source, I think labeling anything cheaper than this $1.50ish as “fakes” is kind of not the full story in this PPE case. See, in China, instead of political parties posturing to give Five Trillion Dollars in stimulus funds away without much to show for it (like we didn’t even get a single new mask factory in America for this?) instead the “CHI-NA” Government did the smart thing by mobilizing manufacturers directly to make PPE, with terrific financing terms for equipment purchases and promises to buy whatever quantity of PPE stock was made, for any manufacturers that wanted to switch over to make PPE. We even considered taking this factory stimulus incentives ourselves to get into making PPE, but I ultimately decided against it because it was too hard to get workers and we had existing orders to work on with our staff. But many factories that didn’t previously make PPE got into it. Masks from those kind of factories are not maliciously “fakes” but the quality is more highly variable.

If the quality is not up to KN95 level (maybe 50% of the time), but being sold as if it is, how are the masks not fake?

What you describe should be termed “substandard” with regards to testing standards, not “fake”. As an example, fake would be further labeling the mask with a 3M logo.

I’m not sure how far you can take that. If they’re so substandard that they might as well be PM2.5 masks, are they still substandard KN95 masks?

Under that assumption everything could be substandard and precious few things would be fake.

From my perspective as a person who's career has been in manufacturing, from the factory floor to supply chain consultant to factory owner who lived in China for 10-years, there is a distinct difference between definitions here of substandard quality and fake. If some company is trying to sell a non-3M designed and manufactured mask as a real 3M mask, that's the definition of "fake". If a company has poor manufacturing practices but is using materials which would otherwise be acceptable industry materials to make a mask to KN95 standards, but for some reason, a random sample of the lot is proven to be "Substandard" to the KN95 standards, that is the definition of "substandard".

Yes, "fake" implies lying and fraud, and not just manufacturing defects. It's an important distinction.

A mask labeled as N95 that knowingly doesn't stop 95% of particles is a fake N95 mask. It is a real mask, it's a fake N95.

There's a big distinction between "we had a manufacturing error" sort of scenarios and folks who knowingly produce stuff that doesn't meet the standards (or don't bother to check).

If the consumer isn't lied to about the product, it's not a fake, even if the quality is bad.

"fake" is a subjective term and what I meant by fake was either substandard or direct knock offs of authorized manufacturers. we've been offered plenty of substandard "KN95" masks at <$0.10/mask.

btw, any of you at big (or small) companies that are looking at the daunting new normal of requiring masks at work (ie: uber drivers & riders) - please reach out - orders@maskhq.org

the HARDEST thing to do right now is match demand with supply. we had an entire production line (1M masks per week) running but once we fulfilled the order, that was it and now we are back at the "end of the line" to get more. the more we can pool large bulk orders together, the more consistent the supply chain is. ocean freight is ~20 days landed in LA and then 3-5 business days to get masks anywhere else in continental US.

for everyone else buying smaller quantities for personal use, as a long time HN lurker, use the discount code "HN" when ordering - https://maskhq.org/discount/hn

stay safe everyone!

Thanks for doing this. You're probably saving lives.

So, obviously counterfeits are bad because they both steal profits from manufacturers and retailers who build quality products, and undermine trust in the real thing.

But, those are harms to manufacturers and retailers--what's are the harms to customers? We see some mixed evidence on the effectiveness of homemade cloth masks, and better evidence that authentic KN95 and N95 masks are effective. Where do counterfeit KN95 and N95 masks fall in relation? Does imitation of look and feel of a KN95 or N95 imply some degree of imitating the effective features of these masks?

These aren't rhetorical questions: I'm really asking because I haven't been able to find much information.

ditto. we were importing masks from an FDA authorized manufacturer: Suzhou Sanical under their private label: Maskin Model 9015 and literally after delivering thousands of them, the CDC put out a PSA about FAKE Maskin masks.

The boxes were similar but clearly knockoffs and it pretty much decimated the demand for Maskin branded masks even though we knew ours were authentic. Due to the bad press, the manufacturer then was put on notice by the Chinese government as well and ever since, we haven't been able to get a reliable amount of KN95's from them.

There honestly isn't very much information out there right now on masks and the differences and we're erring on the side of only putting out facts versus subjective information.

Wow. Talk about solving the real problems! I'm not sure if this has been an issue yet, but how do you QC masks from known good manufacturers to make sure quality doesn't slip?

this has been extremely hard. there are a handful of testing labs in the US but they require 35 masks to test. outside of that, they require a 2+ week lead time and aren't local.

if there are any engineers out there able to come up with some sort of solution to the testing problem, we'd absolutely work with them to test samples from every single production batch we get.

Colorado State University has retooled a lab to help with this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Vm0ryL1jo

I'm doing the same for extended friends and family.

I import and wholesale natural stone slabs for a living, so was right in my wheelhouse.

Concur with the pricing, Is say the best deal I got was earlier in and out was $1.90 shipped to the US.

what folks don't seem to understand is if a shipment gets stuck in customs (china or US), you're effectively out whatever that batch cost. a fellow importer has 300k masks stuck in Shanghai customs for over a month already...

I've been trying to define the efficiency of wearing kn95 masks but you've probably looked into this extensively, tell me where I'm wrong:

Wearing a mask protects the people around you by not exuding the virus when sneezing/coughing, so covering your mouth with your elbow has the same effect.

I assume that while breathing there isn't enough pressure on your throat to exude virus with your breath, so the mask doesn't do anything here either.

In an isolated environment, the virus clings to particles in the air and takes 3h to gravitate down or towards a surfice, although this is faster in practice (weight of sneeze particles ann wind, etc) so when someone sneezes/coughs around you with no protection, you protect yourself by breathing through a mask. This is the only relevant benefit of wearing a mask that I found since I already cover my mouth while sneezing/coughing.

> I assume that while breathing there isn't enough pressure on your throat to exude virus with your breath, so the mask doesn't do anything here either.

Why would you just assume something so critical to your entire conclusion?

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-t...

Not to mention he considers sneezing/coughing/breathing but not intermediate actions like talking.

We exhale droplets when breathing, not just sneezing/coughing. Not as many, but still some.

> In an isolated environment, the virus clings to particles in the air and takes 3h to gravitate down or towards a surfice

This is true for aerosols (like measles). Not for droplets.

In any environment with virus particles airborne, you breathe 95% less of them.

This doesn’t help you if you constantly stick your hands in your mouth after touching random stuff, but if you take all other precautions the efficiacy is going to be pretty damn great.

Are you testing any of the masks? How do you test them?

subjectively by doing the flame infront of the masks and blowing as hard as you can to see if the flame is extinguished and filling the mask with water to see if it holds

amazing logo

I've got a neighbor with a newborn who is trying to find some masks, are you aware of anyone producing for small children and infants?

there are lots of manufacturers in China that are producing for small children but none are certified. this is an area we are looking into sourcing for but due to there not being any sort of standard, it's very non-objective.

fiverr ftw =)

Personally I would not mess with a newborn's breathing, at all. I believe I read somewhere children under 2 should not wear one.

Consider the risk of them chocking vs catching the virus. If the concern is them contaminating others, keep them away from those people.

How are you protecting against "I wore your masks and still got sick" sort of lawsuits? Selling masks right now seems like a high-risk for these, even with meticulous attention to the supply chain.

I'm always puzzled by these "how do you deal with lawsuits" comments. Two questions:

1. Have you seen any examples of mask manufacturers/distributors being sued, either successfully or unsuccessfully?

2. How do you protect against the risk of litigation in everything else you do? For example, being sued by anyone who pays you money (customers or employers)? Their lawsuit may not be successful, but you would still have to defend against it.

IANAL; It doesn't appear that OP does any kind of QC, just extra work to say that the labeling on the masks isn't lying. I don't think the liability would be with them unless it was provable that they are lying or are tampering with the masks. They aren't putting their name on a "this won't get you sick" sticker.

On a broader note, if the burden of proof is on the accuser I have no idea how it would be possible to get a lawsuit like that of the ground in the first place. First off, how do you prove it was the mask and not a thousand other things? Also, manufacturers don't say things like "this mask will stop you from getting sick" because they know that would be a really legally stupid thing to say.

They're N95 masks, meaning that they're 95% effective... How do you sue against something that's specifically advertised as 95% effective? You would need to do a class-action with enough sample size to power statistics...

The claim for N95 masks is not that they are effective for 95% of people, it's that they filter out 95% of small particulate matter. The remaining 5% may or may not be enough to infect anyone, or 5% of those wearing, or 100% of those wearing.

The manner in which you would make a legal claim that the product is not as advertised is to take the mask and use the same certification process the manufacturer claims to be using to test efficacy.

Ah I knew that but didn't run the implications right in my head. Thanks for the correction.

One can get infected by touching something and then touching their face. So how does one prove that they did not do anything that might have caused them to get infected?

If the masks are tested and don't meet the 95% standard, I wouldn't want to put that argument in front of a jury.

yeah, this is really tough. regardless of the merit of the claim, just having to defend against a suit sucks not only resources but just everything. the best I could do was get as much liability insurance I could to protect the LLC I created for the purpose of importing and selling the masks.

figured the reward of getting these KN95's in the hands of folks who need them other than hospitals who have their own supply chains, outweighed the risk of a suit.

we also explicitly state that the masks are for non-medical use and reference the CDC/FDA for everything.