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Comment by mcv | Hacker News Reader

This is not just a problem with Tesla, it's a problem with many, many issues and causes. See the small group of vocal Bernie Sanders "superfans" who would rather vote for Trump than for Biden, and consider Elizabeth Warren somehow a traitor to the progressive cause.

I think this might also be related to the difference between patriotism and nationalism. I've recently seen a bunch of memes about how patriotism is wanting your country to be the best it can possibly be, while nationalism is believing your country is best no matter what. The former is a drive to improve and to fix problems, while the latter means that any constructive criticism is taken as hostility. (I'm aware there are other definitions of these words, but this is the one that works for me in exploring this issue.)

A blind belief in the infallibility of the thing or person you support, will easily turn toxic. It's not a healthy kind of support.

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Twitter and social media are a cesspool. Any sort of curation, trending, or recommendations, tend towards what will garner the most "engagement". Playing on people's fears and outrage to keep them glued to the feed and a captive audience for advertisers. Brief messages (tweets) are a sure way to prevent nuance from getting in the way of a black-and-white opinion.

People in positions of fame, notoriety, power, like Musk, have learned that playing the troll is good for them. They can troll with impunity and the result has turned out to be positive in an "Any publicity is good publicity" way. Journalists lap it up because it gives them something to write about and give their publications clicks for the daily outrage. Everyone gets to fuel the flames.

"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and then our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan

> "We become what we behold. We shape our tools and then our tools shape us."

I was having a conversation with a friend last night about how he thinks most people are largely aware of how news outlets are "fake"/"liars" and that is a good thing. And that that is the first step to having independent, accountable media.

While I don't disagree with the sentiment. If the new guard is using the same tools (high-speed internet, TV, video, Twitter) they are destined to reach a similar equilibrium.

Actually, people waking up to the manipulation will inoculate them to the newer medium abuse, at least somewhat. The slang term is "red-pilled", a reference to Neo taking the red pill in the Matrix movie and learning the truth behind the lies that were fed to him all his life.

> See the small group of vocal Bernie Sanders "superfans" who would rather vote for Trump than for Biden,

While I agree with the majority of you comment and take on superfans in general, I think it's important to note that a large amount of those "superfans" for Sanders are actually astroturfing efforts.

I don't have sources handy, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems pretty clear to me that on Twitter and Reddit those "superfans" are just trying to promote the idea that voters shouldn't vote for Biden as a way to remove their vote in the general.

Again, I agree with what you said here, just want to point out the astroturfing happening.

That's no doubt part of it in the case of Sanders, but I think that also fuels the effect that turns real supporters toxic.

Also because you can see the same thing happen in other areas where people identify extremely strongly with something. In fact, the history of Christianity is filled with moments when Christians acted completely contrary to their teachings due to toxic identification with their brand. Although I guess in that case there were also politically motivated people pushing them in order to take advantage of it.

I agree here - obviously the astroturfing turns real supporters toxic in this case, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to do it.

During the last election, I saw that attitude expressed for real among people I knew. They were almost certainly provoked by astoturfers but they were themselves sincere.

I don't know what they're saying this time around. I removed them from my life. They may have had a change of heart but I am far too angry at them. It's going to take the rest of my life to undo the damage. Possibly longer.

Many of them see through the facade of false choice, and the fact that their is only one political party in this country when it comes to a large % of issues. I don't blame them, you shouldn't either.

That used to be the case perhaps, but right now there are two very different parties.

I can totally understand voting third party when the Republican Party is putting forward someone like Romney or McCain. They're not going to rock the boat. Trump is trying sink it, and what remains of the Republican Party is eager to go down with him.

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