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Comment by benjohnson1707 | Hacker News Reader

Former Schwarz employee here:

The company made SO much money in the past 4 decades with big box / discount retailing, you won't believe it. Salaries are off the charts (it would make senior software engineers in SV look pale). Hubris is as well. The only thing that drives reasoning are statements like 'we're not just some random company, we're Schwarz Group'. It's the poster child Corp described by Andy Gorves statement: Success breeds complacency, complacency breeds failure. Only the paranoid survive.

At the same time, skill level did not take off so much. Just to give you some insight: The Lidl online store team is not even aware of KPIs like CAC or LTV or even how many new customers were acquired in a given year. And it's a 10-year-old unit (still burning millions per year) .

The whole corporation is basically a 2-person-empire (the only two people that own shares and have taken the thing from 1 store to ~13k stores globally). They make every major call, and even random minor calls. It should be mentioned that they are 72 and 80 years old, respectively.

The Cloud idea very likely was acquired together with a former SAP cloud sales VP. Here is the difference: Core Schwarz DNA is selling packed soup to end customers at crazy scale, without even intervening in the whole process. Core DNA SAP is large scale enterprise sales. Go read the Stratechery posting about why Google failed with GCP to understand why Schwarz should not do this. When I once mentioned this in a LinkedIn thread, I was urged by colleagues to delete the comment because 'management did not like it'.

They are getting into the car sales and recycle business as well. Just to give you an impression.

Interesting times though :)

View on HN

> Salaries are off the charts

Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country where I live in (they actually included that in several of their hiring ads), and I'm talking about shop people like cashiers and the people that put things on the shelves.

> They are getting into the car sales and recycle business as well.

In here they've also opened a tourism agency that does quite well (or used to do before the virus hit).

I agree though about the big difference between the German and US management. I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) when addressing herself to her bosses on the company's hallways (said friend used to work for a big US company before moving to Lidl). She was lucky though because not a week after her arrival there was a company-wide email coming from the powers that be instructing the employees to use the less formal singular "you" instead of the more formal plural "you", to which all the employees in the company acquiesced.

I guess you mean the 2nd person form (du or ihr fir singular or plural) instead of the 3rd person plural (Sie), which is the courtesy form fir singular and plural.

Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”.

Parent says Eastern European country, well, I had the bad luck to be born in Hungary (am Canadian now), and I fully understand what happened. It's a generation divide. I am 45 and I am one of the oldest for whom it doesn't matter and looks downright outdated but even to many in my age cohort and especially older it's exceptionally offensive, irrespectful to use the familiar form of "you". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase#Forms_fo... With a huge emphasis on irrespectful -- it's downright disdainful to call someone so without asking for permission to address them so. There is a tradition -- or rather was -- where they used to toast on the occassion of switching from formal address to informal. It's that big of a deal: there was a ritual, simple as it was, on switching the form of address. In the 1920-30s the gendarmerie used to address everyone informally and it was really offensive and a form of asserting dominance -- it was always the superior, the elder who offered the inferior, the younger to switch from formal to informal thus the gendarmerie not even offering just using it declared they are vastly superior to everyone. And the phrase still exists for such offensive behaviour. It really is -- or rather was -- a big deal.

I am saying, it was, because starting the late 90s with the spread of Internet and pseudo-anonimity all this just became outdated -- you had no idea whom you are talking to so observing the old rules were impossible. And those who have grown up with this simply didn't bother learning the rules. For me, when I was 18, it was a Big Deal that at our high school graduation party our class leader teacher allowed everyone to switch from formal to informal. It was basically the only time in my life when something like that happened, then I started using the 'Net shortly after (all this was in '93) and this stuff was just washed away.

Very interesting similarity with Romania. Wondering if that’s because of the cultural link between the two countries or wether it’s something common across east Europe. In romania lords (either romanian or hungarian) demanded serfs to address to them in second person, and thus it became formal speech.

It was somewhat similar in eastern Ukraine when I lived there from 2007-2009, but perhaps not so intense. Russian is not my first language, so at first I would always play it safe and speak formally - to young children, to dogs, to people my age. People thought it was pretty funny.

In Polish the polite way is not plural you, but Sir/Madam in third person. (Which is an interesting artifact of social history, with lots of petty nobility and other classes partly adapting that style even long ago.) There was also the toast, which is still performed in some conservative circles, I think.

I am in my late 20s and did find it excessive when university students from former Soviet Union (not knowing Polish well) use the polite form "pan"/"pani" for fellow students. I think there was some mis-mapping of forms. But otherwise it should be used in any situation when there is a hint of power imbalance or transactional relation. Informal to people at parties, formal to a store attendant and such. For example, I think that the fact that high school students are addressed by teachers with informal "ty", but are required to address them with "pan" is very demeaning and adds to the soul-warping, prison-like atmosphere of schools. At the university level, removing this felt like fresh air.

Recently there is a push in corporate/"hip" circles to use the informal way everywhere and even many young people don't like it. Many want to be able to hide behind "pan"/"pani" from your sales, marketing or otherwise pushy BS. I think that "ty" has to come with some expectation of sincerity and equality.

On the other hand, I find random French or German websites addressing their users with vous/Sie hilarious for some reason. It makes the relation seem businessy. Which okay, it often is in the modern internet.

I don't know where you're at but I have never seen this treated as that big of a deal in my 8 years of living in Austria & 7 in Germany unless you're talking to the prime minister (and especially not if you're obviously not a native speaker).

Maybe more comparable to addressing someone by their first name instead of Mr./Ms./Mrs. <last-name>.

That might not be an issue on the countryside (everything outside Vienna ;), but it is definitely very impolite to address another adult person with "du" instead of "Sie" if they have not offered you to call them with the informal pronoun. However, that might be different with younger people.

Most definitely. Being relatively young, I don't think it's any different. In a work environment it's always "Sie", until one is offered "du". First name/family name depends on how companies/individuals handle it.

Apart from that, people handle it differently. "Sie" basically always for people older than you and some use "du" for others around your age (unless it's in a more professional setting). There is no difference between the countryside and cities.

I wonder if I'm the only person stomping round the house now singing:

Sie!

Sie hast!

Sie Hast Mich!

*Sie haben

I would guess they misspelled "hasst" ("she hates me")?

I guess 23 year old industrial metal songs aren't shared cultural references on HN the way I'd assumed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3q8Od5qJio

Well, the original plays on the fact that "Du hast mich" and "Du hasst mich" sounds the same. That ambiguity is only there with 'Du', not with 'Sie'.

I'm only really familiar with it b/c it's on the matrix soundtrack

It's intentional wordplay. They lyrics are "Du hast" and it follows up with "Du hast mich gefragt".

Seems to be true for Vienna. I'm not native speaker and can say that some people weren't pleased to be called "du" (same age or not) and the whole city seems very formal.

Du/Sie and first name/last name are almost without exception divided along the same lines in German. Sie plus first name is how a person with extreme status expectations would address their butler, and just as old-fashioned. "I'm sorry you can never be my peer but I respect you anyways". Last name and Du would be using the last name as a nickname in a decidedly first name situation. Think "bro" but timeless.

"Sie" and first name was used at a smallish company (~50 employees) I worked at previously. It's just a combination of respect and familiarity. Additionally, several women really liked being called by their first name as it "made them feel less old".

This was common in the United States Southeast as a kid and still is to a lesser degree e.g. ”Miss Anne, please can I go outside?”

Oh, there's more to it. Compare https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_Sie

I can vouch for the Kassiererinnen-Du being used. My mom runs the butcher in a supermarket. She and and many of her coworkers share a lot about themselves, but they still address each as other as Frau Schmidt and Herr Schulze.

Apparently mincing one thing and putting it between a pari of two other things is a specialty of Hamburg, who knew!

One of the perks of being an Aussie is calling everyone from the frontline workers to the C-suite 'mate'

Luckily the C-suite get their own C-word for proper etiquette.

I don't think I've ever seen someone at a tech company in Australia refer to someone as 'mate'. Certainly not C-suite.

For the most part, I find the use of mate as obnoxious at worst and awkward at best.

In Australia, the words "mate" and "cunt" have seemingly-opposite meanings, to what an American-English speaker might think.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen

Similar in Sweden 50 years ago.

Their old system reminds me of some things I dimly remember from old German media. But even more complicated, it seems.

> Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”.

It's been changing for decades across a lot of languages. I grew up in Norway where these forms were dying out as I was a child (70's/80's) and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. But go back another decade or two and it was common.

When I moved to the UK in 2000, even that was a weird shift up for me in formality (being called "sir" in shops, and having people actually use "mister" in front of my last name) compared to Norway.

But by the 90's my French and German teacher had both insisted we learn to use the formal forms but also both told stories about how that would already then sometimes make you seem old and stuffy, and to listen for what others said and if in doubt ask and to roughly assume we could get away with the informal form with our own age group and younger but default to the formal forms for older people just in case.

My own experience has been that most people I've met in Germany on business trips mostly have thought I've been more formal than necessary at first and told me I can use "du", because I've erred on the side of caution, but it's also varied a lot by location and age group and situation. Since I use my German relatively I'd rather start out too formal than misjudge the situation the other direction.

Interesting how currently the formal forms appear to be dying out, but back when English went through the same process it was the informal form ("thee/thou") that died.

> and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations.

I'd say that sounds pretty similar to how it's used among German speakers, at least those who are 30 or younger.

I've lived in both Germany and currently Sweden. I have asked about the formal address here in Sweden, and the only time someone ever said you might use it is when talking to one of the royal family (while trying to suppress a laugh). Most younger people respond by saying that we don't have a formal-informal distinction here, which in practice is pretty true.

I have a good friend who spent half his childhood in Germany and then moved here (fluent in English, Deutsch, and Svenska). I asked about whether he would use formal or informal when visiting back home in Germany, or when talking to another German using German here in Sweden. Without hesitating, he said he always uses formal.

I have another German friend, who has been here only for about a year so far, of whom I asked the same: "Definitely I would use informal with any German here."

When I was in Germany, I could easily get away with using informal with anyone, because as clearly a foreigner with only moderate language skills, one can be forgiven many faux pas.

Interestingly, my spouse who is a fluent German speaker but also not native always falls into using formal address. She is quite often reprimanded for being too formal in situations that do not call for it. But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes.

W.r.t. my German-Swede friend, after we talked about it, he postulated that the reason he always defaults to formal is that he left Germany as a child, and so he never went through the transitory phase where children start to learn to talk to adults as equals.

I think the death of the formal forms in Sweden relatively closely mirrored the changes in Norwegian. In Scandinavia I feel it was in part at least hastened by the post-war political landscape where the strength of the workers movement meant there was a big push towards a more egalitarian society in general, and that was carried over into language reforms.

I think the notion of using the formal forms only when talking to the royal family is close to how it would be in Norwegian too. In written language it retains every so slightly more use, but then too the only times it would be used non-sarcastically would be in something like e.g. an invite to something very formal. E.g. if I received an invite to a black tie event, then maybe it wouldn't be out of place. It'd still feel old fashioned, but then sometimes that is the goal.

> But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes.

I think that's the case for a lot of people who learned these languages some time ago - my teachers knew there was a transition happening, but would rather have us come across as too formal or polite than insult someone, especially as the focus was on learning these languages for business rather than for personal use, and it's really hard to get used to changing those things for languages you don't use every day in particular.

Austrian living in Norway here. The Sie/du thing has gotten less strict, but there's still a lot of social situations where starting out with a du would be quite awkward. It's usually fine among colleagues (esp. in university and modern IT companies), but wherever there's a more stratified hierarchy(pretty much all service sector interactions for instance) it's always a good idea to stick with Sie.

Interestingly, English went the other direction; "you" is the old _formal_ form (the informal was "thou").

A lot of the comments below indicate that that the Du/Sie distinction is something old fashioned and young people don't do this anymore. This is arguably false. Even though it might not be at the same level as it was 70 or 80 years ago, this distinction is still very much part of the German language and society.

With people my age I would probably always use the informal Du, but only in informal situations. In case of formal interactions, as part of a business transaction, etc. I would probably always go to the Sie if I didn't know the person and would expect the same in reverse. Anything else would probably be perceived as lacking respect. English doesn't have anything equivalent except maybe first name/last name basis, so it's always hard to explain to Americans.

Of course, as a foreigner things are always less strict and one gets some slack for not speaking the language perfectly.

It's a cultural thing that's subject to change. The Netherlands technically has two forms as well, but the use of the formal one in practice has greatly reduced and people don't put much weight on the distinction anymore. Certainly wouldn't get offended if you used the informal one. Used to be different 50 years ago.

I hear a lot of horror stories about German management working at Cluj Napoca’s tech companies, and beyond. If left unchecked they will continue doing so.

This is very old-fashioned & I guess geographically dependent: we used to live in Vienna where you'd expect to use Sie (formal) with any adult you don't personally know where as we now live in Berlin where everyone uses du (informal).

Either way nobody who isn't an asshole will get a non-native speaker in trouble for mixing these up & even in Austria my experience was that they will just be a bit perplexed but continue speaking as if the "du faux pas" didn't happen.

It was a bit surprising to me to see that in Spain you only use the formal plural with much older people, if then, whereas in Greece you'd use it with any stranger that wasn't about your age AND you had some rapport with.

I guess I expected cultures to be similar in who gets the polite treatment, but they're really not.

Latin American Spainsh seems to be a bit more formal and "old fashioned", but varies a lot from country to country.

Greece is east European in that regard, possibly influence of orthodox church if I would guess.

Tu vs voi?

Tu vs vous. Slavic languages (OP says Eastern Europe) use 2nd person plural for formal 'you' as well

Yeah, I was assuming Romanian with tu as the informal, and voi for the formal.

Oh, sorry, I assumed you had a typo in the French.

Kind of, more like dumneata or dumneavoastră.

Another data point from Lidls homeland regarding the wage of the "shop people" from about 10 years ago. While we had endless political discussions about minimum wage there were numbers of 7,50EUR to 8,50EUR per hour in the air at that time. Don't remember exactly anymore. What i DO remember though is that they had signs in the shops which you couldn't miss when standing at the cashier. They read 10EUR per hour, and later 11 to 12. They don't do that in shop signaling anymore, but nowadays it is around 15EUR i believe, while other retailers/discounters pay significantly less, except ALDI. And we still have that discussion over a mandatory minimum wage in all sectors, and it is ridiculously low.

Lidl and Aldi both expect a lot from their employees. The high productivity justifies the pay.

Not everyone wants such an intense job. So I am not sure it is a good idea to force eg other retailers into the same strategy. They already have Aldi and Lidl to compete with on the labour market, so there's already opportunity for workers to get higher pay, if they want to make that bargain.

I know that. Thing is, the other retailers don't treat their employees any better, have usually higher prices, but pay less. What to do?

I'm not talking about bad treatment. I'm talking about hard work.

But 'what to do?' is easy to answer in principle but hard to implement in practice: lower barriers to entry for new companies, and for companies wanting to expand into other industries or markets. Make it easy for workers to move between jobs. (By, for example, not tying health insurance to your job.)

While i'm not working there, i casually know some people who did at the store level, shelving/cashier. It's not less hard at f.e. Edeka or Rewe either. That's what i meant. And health insurance isn't tied to a job here. And when you are shopping, if you are not absolutely ignorant, you can see and compare the range of tasks a single person has to do where and when. There is not much difference to be seen, and backstage it isn't different either.

edit: I'm unsure what you mean by lower barriers to entry. I'm all in for barriers if they ensure following safe and healthy practice!

Oh, I'm more comparing to American supermarkets. They have much higher staffing levels than what competition with Lidl and Aldi has forced the German retail landscape down to.

(Btw, 'for example' is spelled e.g. not f.e. in English. And German 'd.h' (das heißt) is i.e. in English. They are curious creatures and have a thing for Latin. Most people still pronounce eg as 'for example' and ie as 'that is'.)

That was the most succinct explanation of those three things which i always feel vague and unsure about. e.g./f.e./i.e.

Thx. We will see if it 'sticks' :)

But...i often see f.e. written, could it be a regional difference like US vs. british spelling?

nag nag... i know why i'm using f.e. so much instead of e.g. It's because the German z.B.(zum Beispiel) translates one to one to f.e.(for example).

German in Management here.

This "Du/Sie" thing is a local shit test in Germany in my opinion. Comparable to what I experienced in strictly hierarchical enterprises like Sony US in the early 2010th, where at least one Senior Manager would only talk to an employee directly, instead only to her senior manager (same level BS).

Informal is owning the workforce finally, it is on the rise, and you can use it as a shit detector. People who value hierarchy over merits will refer to these manners. Others not. :)

I always struggled with this in Germany as a foreigner.

Coming from a country in which the so called formal form changed significantly in the last decades and is now reserved to people you don't want to get along with (that's how politicians refer to members of other parties, or how customer support starts to address you after you tell them that you want to quit the contract), I always ended up using the informal form, which translated into many funny stares.

Many people who formally learn German as a second language (as opposed to just picking it up on the spot) seem to default to Sie. I guess that's what they teach in the Goethe institute.

Defaulting to Sie seems like a safe default. At worst you get some funny looks for being overly formal, but you don't insult anyone.

I don’t think it’s just German. When I started learning Russian, 95% of what I was taught was on вы (plural/formal you). When you’re a beginner you really lean on stock phrases and bits you learned in class, so when I moved to Kharkov everything I said was formal for about six months. It took a year before I really stopped speaking to children or pets formally. It makes sense I guess, if you’re not sure formal is probably safer than informal (although speaking to someone formally when you should be speaking informally can also be insulting.)

It’s not just knowing when to use formal/informal - native speakers often forget this but in languages with verbs that conjugate, a beginner learner may not be as good with the Du conjugations as they are with Sie. Again, when you are just starting with the language or you’re not confident you lean on repeating things you’ve learned and if you were taught Sie then that’s what you do.

> It makes sense I guess, if you’re not sure formal is probably safer than informal (although speaking to someone formally when you should be speaking informally can also be insulting.)

You get lots of leeway on the latter as a foreigner.

Very true, however I’ve noticed in pretty much every culture speaking the lingua franca poorly often means you are treated nicely but not very seriously.

> At worst you get some funny looks for being overly formal

Yups. The young dont like it. But I was educated to do it, hard to throw that out.

It's also easier. When using "Sie" you need to use the infinitive form of the verb ("brauchen Sie etwas?", "werden Sie das so machen?") while when using "Du" you need to use the very special and complicated 2nd person form ("brauchst Du was?", "wirst Du das so machen?").

Agreed in practice. I think in theory, it's not the infinitive form of the verb; just identical in most cases.

You can see that with 'to be': infinitive form is 'sein', but 'Sie sind'.

> I agree though about the big difference between the German and US management. I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German) when addressing herself to her bosses on the company's hallways

Using "du" instead of "Sie" for adressing people can be a very serious issue. If you do this to a policeman, for example, you can be fined by typically 600 € in Germany (source: https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/beamtenbeleidigung/). To give an analogue in the English language: you wouldn't address your boss with "yo nigga". So I believe the reprimand was rather rightfully.

A rule in the German language is: in doubt, use the more formal language register. The "default language register" in German is typically "one register more formal" than the "default language register" in English.

I'm French Canadian and that sounds insane.

In France, there's a soft tendency to use the plural you ("vous") a lot more because of the more rigid French class system. In Quebec it's seen as a snobby thing to do due to the more working ass culture.

That said, in neither country would anyone ever get a monetary fine for using one over the other. That's crazytown

I'm French French, we just think you and Walloons are rednecks with no education, see you ;)

I'm married to a frog, and they really do believe the quebecois are their poor, dumb, country cousins.

We had both a French exchange student and Quebecois exchange student in high school, he would frequently do a french impersonation of something akin to the Beverly Hillbillies and make the Quebecois girl cry. Being a town of rednecks ourselves everyone thought it was wonderful.

what is "ass culture"?

Howcome the German Apple store are using “du” all over the place?

Are they not well advised by their localization partners?

It's part of the brand, that advertisements which target young people / children, or else want to appear "cool", use the informal way of address.

That is true.

Additionally, this is a clear signalling that Apple targets consumers and not companies. German Apple haters scoff that this informal addressing in Apple's commercials is a clear admission that Apple's products are not suitable for doing serious work.

Such kind of informal addressing in advertizing is a very double-edged sword: Some companies (besides Apple also Ikea) use this kind of advertizing to brand themselves as hip and informal while many Germans consider this as "cheap ingratiation" [billige Anbiederung].

I am sure that this kind of advertizing made it much harder for Apple's sales department to sell to big companies.

Something funny that I noticed is that German PC gaming magazines are now saying "Sie" to their readers. I guess it makes sense - most of them are adults and some of them not even very young adults these days.

Why "now"? I used to read the PC Games a decently long time ago and it was always "Sie". Same with the PC Action and Computer Bild Spiele. No clue about the Gamestar but those were basically the relevant PC gaming magazines.

You may be right, I have not been paying attention for a long time.

It's a creative and family brand, so they adopt the same strategy as Ikea in Germany (also going for "du" everywhere).

Such brands rather risk being mistaken for a family member than for an insurance salesman.

> The "default language register" in German is typically "one register more formal" than the "default language register" in English.

Fun offtopic fact: The default register in English is actually more formal than most people realise. English had "thou" as the informal second person, and "you" as the more formal variant, but "thou" died out, leaving only the formal register. Curiously enough, Brazilian Portuguese underwent the exact same phenomenon, so they use "você" informally, whereas European Portuguese uses it as the formal second person.

Thanks for this clarification, I was completely unaware of the English part and curious about the Spanish part. <3

Using the informal "du" over "Sie" is not anywhere near using the n-word in english. Raising your outstretched hand just above head hight to greet someone would be, though.

Overall, using "du" is acceptable in 90% of social interactions. It's only when talking to people in higher positions or as a courtesy to elderly / unfamiliar people.

>Overall, using "du" is acceptable in 90% of social interactions. It's only when talking to people in higher positions or as a courtesy to elderly / unfamiliar people.

That is pretty much exactly how nigga is used.

I don't think there is a mapping to this in English. I've studied some Spanish and German - You learn about the various verb and pronoun forms based on informal and formal "you". This is a part of the core language, the spec, so to speak.

In English, there is no spec for different levels of formality. There is no universally documented way to being less courteous to bosses and policemen. Saying "sup dude" or "how's it going" is part of the American standard library, not the language.

And to your point directly, "nigga" is incredibly informal and casual, and would never be something anyone (much less a non-native speaker) should ever use unless they know what they are doing. And usually, they should be black, too.

Well it just so happens I am black and I've been using the word most of my life.

Nigga is just "bro" or "dude" but exclusively used among black/minority communities. I realize the word nigga is A Big Deal for white people but really in our community it is used as casually as the word "like" in any given sentence. Interestingly I have even used it with black bosses before in a joking casual way.

If you're black, you're probalby speaking a particular vernacular that's at least slightly different from standard American english.

You're ignoring the fact that a non-negligible percentage of black people don't want to be called any version of "nigga" by anybody, including other black people.

The same is not even remotely true of bro or dude

You could say that for any informal familiar expression that makes the recipient bristle.

It's so common people joke about it "don't call me dude, bro | don't call me bro, pal" etc etc

No, you couldn't.

As a black person among black people? Can, have and will continue to.

Ok, cool. Good luck with that

When I was learning German I read somewhere that English used to have different forms for "you" just like German. Which wouldn't be weird since the languages are closely related.

Yes, in English we fully adopted the formal which is "You" for both formal / informal speech. The familiar / informal was "Thou" - which is a bit weird because now we think of "Thou" as being a bit formal because it is so old-fashioned.

> Overall, using "du" is acceptable in 90% of social interactions.

This holds for private life. In professional life (except for IT industry and design industry; both are much more casual in the interaction style), it is rather "Sie" is acceptable in 90% of social interactions.

English has many faults, but I am proud of our limited number of cases and (standard) conjugations.

It must be taught since it's a part of the language, but I almost wish non-native German students could skip the "du" tense entirely, if it's that much of a faux pas to use it in the wrong scenario.

So far Duolingo has always taught me to use du, and never Sie...

Duolingo is a toy for getting a passing familiarity with a language. If you really want to learn it you need to take classes with a real human tutor

Which is exactly what I did coming out of undergrad University here in the US. I started work and then for fun I went and formally studied German at a local college, taught by a native speaker born in Köln. I was educated to use Sie out of respect and only use du with close friends, children, and only when instructed by co-workers and other associates. In my travels I have had many discussions in German and have not once been repremanded, only on occasion told I am fine to use the informal form.

> To give an analogue in the English language: you wouldn't address your boss with "yo nigga".

Are you crazy? This is not anywhere close to saying "du".

> To give an analogue in the English language: you wouldn't address your boss with "yo n"

Not even close, not even close. Why would you even write this? This must be a dog whistle.

Edit: that link you posted justs lists the €600 as "this happened once and depends on income of offender", also there is no source.

In addition, the intro paragraph says

> Es gibt jedoch bei Beleidigung keinen „Bußgeldkatalog“. Vor Gericht wird der Straftatbestand der Beleidigung verurteilt.

which translates to there is no schedule of penalties but it all depends on the statutory offence. So my understanding is there was a criminal offence that included an insult (saying "Du") which was mentioned in the report but not the cause for the fine in the first place.

somehow I feel like these two examples are not equivalent...

Take that n-word out you savage. You don't greet Germans with "Heil Hitler" or any middle-eastener with "Wallah, was los Kanacke?" to be informal.

> Just to add another data point, Lidl is also the retailer that pays the best market salaries in the Eastern-European country where I live in (they actually included that in several of their hiring ads), and I'm talking about shop people like cashiers and the people that put things on the shelves.

Just to add another data point: in the small town when I come from (southern italy) the Lidl store was a total failure and a complete mess. They acquired land built the whole building, opened short of staff, operated briefly (always short on staff and with a huge turnover) and then had huge problems with (afaik) the legality of the contracts for employees and allegedly employee mistreating.

That Lidl store didn't last long, to put it nicely, and the building is still on sale many years after that.

I'm sure anyone who works for a Japanese company would understand. The class/power dynamics are built into the language itself, and in most situations it is not socially appropriate to respond to your boss in the same "register" as they might address you.

>I have a close friend that works at the regional Lidl HQ and she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you"

Sounds reasonable. If someone did the same to me in a professional setting my instinct would be to treat it as an intentional lack of respect. Albeit my language is French (but it functions the same as German in that case).

As someone who is familiar with formal/informal you difference in 3 languages (French, Farsi, and Azerbaijani), I had the same reaction. But I guess things are difference in German.

German here. I absolutely loathe the formal form. It can be compared to using "Sir" with your superiors. While it is super common to address people informally in younger IT companies, in more traditional ones it is mostly informal.

If they talk formal, run. It's most likely a shithole.

This level of formality between people I find very patriarchal and outdated. Also, with people you just met it becomes somewhat awkward to always ask for which formality to use. English is doing very well without it.

When meeting new people, it's actually a pretty good indication of whether the interaction is strictly business, or might include off-topic conversations.

> she got reprimanded just after being hired for having used the singular "you" (less formal) instead of the plural "you" (I'm not sure how it translates into German)

Are Germans usually this strict about language in a professional setting? I am from the USA but worked for a company with offices in Germany for a couple years. They were formal in some ways but also made many jokes that could get you fired in the USA. Maybe my experience was the exception.

>> The Cloud idea very likely was acquired together with a former SAP cloud sales VP. Here is the difference: Core Schwarz DNA is selling packed soup to end customers at a crazy scale, without even intervening in the whole process. Core DNA SAP is a large scale enterprise sales. Go read the Stratechery posting about why Google failed with GCP to understand why Schwarz should not do this.

This is exactly what I have guessed. Many people think that replicating AWS is just the question of money. It is not. Most of the great datacenter people are hired by AWS, MS and Google. These are the guys who can think of cost efficient reliable solutions, quite often inventing new things in the process that the outside world has no idea. I was watching countless videos while working for Amazon about the data center tech. Mind blown, every single time. I seriously doubt that the Schwarz group will be able to attract the talent to replicate this. Many of the AWS guys are life timers, do not care about money. What is a more likely scenario that they will burn through a few billion EUR before realizing that they know nothing about cloud computing and cut their losses.

It is going to be interesting to watch though.

> Many of the AWS guys are life timers, do not care about money

I've heard, anecdotally, that Amazon/AWS engineers tend to be more money-driven than others in the same tier, or at least they're willing to put up with a lot more headaches because of the money.

Is that a misconception?

If not money, then what keeps them there?

I used to work for Google and have friends at Amazon.

Google definitely seems to have the better working conditions. The impact on the world you have is probably similar. So relatively speaking, I'd expect people at Amazon to be into it for the money more.

Google pays better than amazon though and if you really want money, you go to facebook as they are known for top pay and promoting you really fast if you are willing to put in the hours.

Granted, this is assuming you can get into each one and there is some luck in that so a lot of people are just where they could get in.

> Granted, this is assuming you can get into each one and there is some luck in that so a lot of people are just where they could get in.

Yes, though I assume that if you can not only get in but get at least one promotion at one of the big tech companies, the others would take you as well.

I don't know. Maybe in the lower engineering tiers. The senior datacenter people are not as easy to move. The made a fortune when AMZN went from 130 to 2000 in a relatively short time. Not sure though.

I was running a stall at a graduate careers fair and was amazed at the interest both Aldi and Lidl were getting.

Both had amazing starting salaries - I think Aldi was £48k rising to £70k over 3 years if you went on the area manager scheme. Plus a car. The teams there were so enthusiastic and energised and appeared to really really enjoy their jobs.

I am impressed by any company that consistently looks after their staff financially and otherwise.

I don't have firsthand experience but from what I know those salaries come with very high expectations. Things like "you have to drive to some random neighborhood on a Sunday to check that flyers were being delivered correctly'.

Once you're in a managing position, expectations can be high. Depends on the department however. Everything that is core business related (purchasing, logistics, store management) can be insane. Especially IT is a joke, mostly. But that's just my perspective.

> Salaries are off the charts (it would make senior software engineers in SV look pale).

I have a hard time believing this, given that senior engineers at places like Google or Facebook are making 300k+.

According to https://www.comparably.com/companies/lidl/salaries/software-... and glassdoor senior software engineers are around 150k to 200k and directors are around 200k to 300k.

So they are largely comparable to SV salaries at Google/Facebook. Which means since Google/Facebook pay more than average, they are above average for SV.

And that's at places like Berlin which are cheaper to live than SV.

GP said that the salaries would make senior engineers in Silicon Valley pale. That implies that they're much higher. Instead, they're actually much lower, as I suspected.

This is true even for the senior engineers, at around half the compensation or so; for the principal engineers and directors, working somewhere like Google or FB gets you 3-5x what's quoted for Lidl.

> So they are largely comparable to SV salaries at Google/Facebook

This is completely wrong. Compensation for senior engineers at Google/FB is around 350k USD: https://www.levels.fyi/#

> And that's at places like Berlin which are cheaper to live than SV.

Agreed. Nevertheless, the salaries aren't going to make any senior engineers in SV "pale", when they're half as much.

Agreed! Let me clarify: high wages, once you're an engineering manager it's probably comparable. However, you're not nearly as relevant, from a value-sdd perspective. FAANG etc. are software companies. Lidl is an offline retailer. So top notch engineering there is not nearly as critical as for a company like facebook. So let me rephrase: way more buck for way less bang!

But a fair critique! Thanks for pointing out.

Most first level managers at G/FB are L6 and thus clearing about 500k a year [0]. Lidl really pays that for first level managers?

[0]: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engi...

>And that's at places like Berlin which are cheaper to live than SV.

But most of the Jobs aren't in cities like Berlin. Most of them are at there HQ in Heilbronn or near it. So the cost of living is even lower.

"skill level did not take off so much"

Big problem in German enterprise.

They don't have any IT skills, but much money and are constantly crying for "digital transformation" what usually only leads them to being conned by big consulting agencies.

Why is this? Is there a brain drain going on?

Should be. The salary disparity in US and EU is immense.

And on the other side so are the healthcare and public services. I don't think there is a big scale brain drain to the US.

I am doing the job for about 6-7 years and I don't know a single dev that went to the US. But I know many devs that came from other european countries and even the US.

Not really. The difference in salary isn't enough incentive for people to leave Western Europe at scale. You'll still live very well as a STEM graduate in France/Benelux/Germany.

It's just a cultural thing. Germany has tons of family-owned businesses with a fairly conservative ethos that manage to do well in spite of complete technological illiteracy.

Having worked in multiple German Blue Chips, my 5 cents:

- Brain-drain, likely (US vs German salaries is a joke) but also likely offset by brain-gain from other places (in my experience only Scandinavia, Netherlands and Switzerland beat German salaries, lately)

- safety-seeking culture draws the wrong people to the big corps. The more of them there are, the worse productivity and innovation gets.

- because of their appeal to masses of safety-seeking underperformers wages at German blue-chips are usually noticeably lower than at consultancies or Mittelstand, pushing away even those few talented they did recruit

- keeping talented and motivated people long-term is even harder because if enough of the wrong there are, you’ll often have strictly defined career-options, so that e.g. after 10 years you cannot possibly get another raise unless you stop engineering and do Inner-corporate bureaucracy work.

- I’ve seen niches in these companies where people shield their team / unit from that mess, pro-actively outsmarting the corporate machine (e.g. hacking the hiring process, securing backing from CEOs, pushing for technological visions...) Those units have a big draw on inner-company talent, but are limited in how much talent they can take into care. Working there is very pleasant. As maybe highlighted by the fact that these guys are more likely aware that their pay is an insult, but they stay regardless.

"safety-seeking culture draws the wrong people to the big corps"

So true.

I have the feeling big German corps are basically a work creation scheme.

I worked in the Real Estate Dept at Lidl for a (very) short time, awful company. Never have I seen people being treated so badly, especially in stores.

Their IT was an absolute joke back then, we had to use a 20-year-old ERP and most of the work was done on paper. Thinking that these guys could take on AWS sounds ludicrous to me. However, they are cost-killers and hyper-aggressive when it comes to selling, so this might even work...

> Stratechery posting about why Google failed with GCP

I believe you meant https://stratechery.com/2019/the-value-chain-constraint/

> Salaries are off the charts

Are they?

I received few offers from them and their salaries where in par with what I earn in Italy (around 100k) which is very good for Europe but not as much as SV

Just out of curiosity what do you do that earns you 100k in Italy if I may ask?

Most Italians I met working in Austria and Germany left Italy because of low salaries and they're not making anything close to 100k here either.

I've even met Italians who moved to Eastern Europe for higher tech salaries than back home so something doesn't add up.

Can confirm. As senior software developer I made 25K EUR in 2019.

That's a very poor salary for your job, if you don't mind me saying. Are you in Italy? What's the cost of living like?

Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

Starting salary will average ~£25k, rising to ~£35k as you get more senior, then maybe £~45-55k one you're 5-10 years in.

This is excluding London and contract-based work, of course.

In Germany at the senior (10+ years) scale €70k/year is not unusual & if you work for the better paid companies (like google) you can expect significantly more.

What about starting salaries, salaries at 2 years, 5 years etc.?

in Munich: starting salaries with a masters are 55-60k€ (before tax!) at average car related companies (even for non-CS-grads doing SWE with a physics/math background), 60-70k€ at the actual car companies. Social sciences/other jobs with masters: 42-50k€, below that with a bachelors/apprenticeship. Independent of the education in IT you should be able to reach 50k after 5 years (excluding grunt work) and 80k with a masters. Some engineers I know have been taken by electronics industry as PMs for 120k€ straight out of grad school. Rents are high (20€/m²), so other parts of Germany might be better overall (subtract 20-30% of salaries).

All this doesn't hold true for a lot of immigrant labor and people working at startups, where you are offered 30-40k€ with a masters (these kindd employ most of the immigrant labor I think - of course there's the odd 100k YC). Imho this (at current rent levels) is exploitation and something which makes working in Munich not particularly attractive for anyone not from Germany or getting a job at a car company.

Why can't non Germans get hired at those salaries in car or electronics companies?

1. They absolutely can and do, but many sell themselves short.

2. Big caveat: There are absolutely many conservative managers who insist on speaking perfect German / not switching the team language because of the new junior dev, so there will definitely be job openings where immigrants are discriminated against at those big corporates, but IME that doesn't apply to the companies as a whole.

The reverse is obviously also true: If you want to work in a young, international, open culture, you might prefer startups, but most of them offer lower salaries.

they can of course (and are), but there are still a lot of underpaid jobs (compared to cost of lving) out there (and these companies are not going out business strangely, so they seem to find labor). Basically for a german it doesn't make a lot of sense to take a job, where you will be having the life of a barkeeper in Berlin (e.g. hustling through at <50k€) - and frankly, these jobs exist and they find employees, so imho this is mainly people "wanting to live in Germany" (at whatever the social cost)

70k for senior level in Germany seems low to me. Siemens for example pays around 45-60k starting salary for developers.

In which city/division can one find this salary? Siemens is huge and has multiple business units in multiple cities each with their own salary grid.

Siemens pays according to the IG Metall labor agreement which you can find here (in German) https://www.igmetall.de/tarif/tariftabellen/wie-viel-gibt-es

A software engineer should get _at least_ EG10 which ends up being >50k e.g. in Berlin.

As I said you can find better but I'll bet the average wage for developers with 10 year of experience is actually below (or at least not above) 70k.

Also my experience reflects living in Berlin (& previously Vienna), in Munich or Frankfurt salaries may be higher.

This is pretty accurate and refreshing to see. Contray to everyone elses salaries, UK (excl. London) seems very low.

I am just below the £45k mark with 3 years at my current company and 12ish years overall. So should be bang on your numbers when it comes to 5-10 years at this company.

Where in the UK are you based?

Don't get disheartened when you read these big salaries online. The average reader isn't bothering to post theirs.

The UK is actually pretty good when it comes to IT salaries. Go to France, for example, and they're much lower. The attitude to devs is quite poor in a lot of places, treating us like we're one rung above car mechanics. We also have a good contract market in the UK; in many other EU countries (even Australia) contractors make peanuts in comparison.

Outsourcing and the low barrier-to-entry have all dampened IT salaries. Immigration has also played a part in the UK over the last 15 years; a lot of devs from Eastern Europe have gone where the money is - i.e. here. I know it's a contentious issue here but I say that with no malice. I'd do it too if I was them, and a lot of them are talented devs, but there's no point pretending it hasn't had an impact.

IME salaries have risen fairly significantly in London over the past 7 years or so, up until about 2 years ago.

I don't think dev immigration has hurt that much if at all. There's a virtuous circle: the more devs there are, the more startups are created and the more FAANGs set up shop. Devs get more experienced on bigger and harder problems, which makes them more valuable.

There's a huge amount of developer immigration to SV, and yet that's where the highest salaries are. Would they really be even higher if FB, Google, Apple etc. couldn't find enough devs to hire, or would those companies have set up shop in other areas and countries instead, to accommodate their needs? Or would those companies have been growth constrained on availability of talent instead?

Yes, salaries usually posted on HN are quite far from the average or median salaries for engineers.

E.g. as a french junior SWE I earn €50k before taxes and I known that’s more than most and less than some.

> Go to France, for example, and they're much lower.

Personally heard some horror stories from french IT, any particular reason that attitudes don't change there?

niwork, i can't reply directly so will reply here.

I am based in the East Midlands, I have been offered up to 50k from other companies in the East Midlands but have either rejected (commute) or withdrawn due to slow references.

I feel like salaries are creeping upwards here but only for in fashion stacks. I am part of a larger organisation here and have the influence I'd like in the team so chasing salary isn't a demand for me anymore, however it does get disheartening at times!

Yes, I'm in Italy. Maybe it's because I live alone in a small and really cheap apartment, I keep the heat off even in winter (I dig cold) and I try to not eat at home (only lunch at work in the cafeteria), but I never had money problems. Things will surely change when I decide to buy a house.

> Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

That's mostly London as far as I can tell. The rest of the UK isn't so hot.

That's after taxes?

That's roughly the salary you'd get in Poland, but with a lower cost of living.

Not saying you should relocate or anything - I'm just amazed at the state of the Italian IT job market.

I spent a few years in Italy and have a friend who lived and worked in Poland. Hated the experience, but by his account it was the most stable and well paid job he had ever.

I never understood how could that be possible.

Yes, that's after taxes. Relocating is on my wishlist but I'm really too afraid to do it.

To clarify as I can't edit: my friend is Italian, I'm Polish.

Anyway while you'd probably be better off relocating to Germany, France and of course Switzerland if you ever consider Poland then give me a shout at:

hand @ wringing.it

It's a throwaway email that I check once every week.

Perhaps I would be able to help.

Thank you!

Why? Go get a remote job and triple the salary, to start with. Of course don't mention your current one. Seriously, go scan HN Who Is Hiring thread for remote jobs - for US or Swiss companies, don't bill below six-figure. For German companies, aim high five-figure. Do it now.

Does that really work? What sort of experience levels are you talking about?

I have one year of experience at a FAANG and i posted on the HN "who is looking for a job" thread and got an email from a company.

Do you have an American or EU or other passport?

American

That makes a lot of things easier.

It's easy to make fun of America, but they still have one of the broadest labour markets; and also one of the highest paying for software people.

Would you have gotten that offer with a year of non-FAANG experience?

Probably not

I think your motivational comment has unintentionally come off as patronizing and lacking empathy.

Are there really that many US jobs hiring remote including outside the US so that every underpaid developer in Europe can get hired?

No, probably not. But it's possible that any particular (loosely speaking) underpaid developer can, because not all of them are actively looking for remote work.

> Why?

I used to like this job. I was looking for a new one but COVID-19 happened.

As for the remote job, I currently work 6:30-17:00 with 45 minutes of commute, and the work environment is exausting. I don't think I could handle another job.

I think they meant find a different job rather than an additional job.

Remote jobs paying 6 figures? Aren't they flooded with Indian applicants? Why can I hire an outsourced Indian or Ukrainian for £10,000 PA then? Sounds weird..

They exist.

India has the most unfortunate timezone I guess, so US companies prefer Europeans, as there is at least some overlap. Plus, maybe there's unconscious racism? I.e. subconsciously associating white skin with higher skills.

Simple. It's the difference between being able to find good paying work, and relying on others to find it.

You can be located in a cheap country making thousands a day while others make that in a month. Just need to be a good at finding people whose problems you can solve.

Can you give an example of that? What have you been doing?

Depending on where you live and on the company you can get paid more, though not much more.

In 2013 I was paid 27k€ as a junior developer (2 years experience) in Florence, before taxes and employee-paid social security (I think if you count company-paid social security it adds up to around 33k€), but I think I was a bit lucky. I think software engineers making more than 60k€ as employees of an Italian company are exceedingly rare.

You can make twice that as an independent contractor, as long as you charge by project (if you want to be paid hourly you get killed by the sticker price comparison). Being a contractor demands a different skill set though, as the programming is only half of it; how much you make will depend for the most part on how you can deal with the customer.

Is this gross or net? I earn 50K EUR gross and 30K net on same role. It's close to top market rate in my country (Poland). I know some top engineers getting 80K. Anyway unless working contract taxes are too high to incentivise putting more effort.

I interviewed a lot and it's hard to get more than 70K EUR / GBP at least with my skillset and would need to move. I wonder if places like Amazon/FB/Google pay more in EU?

BTW are US salaries posted gross(pre-tax)? I wonder if it's worth applying for me.

To earn that in Italy in IT I only know a partner at Deloitte. Everyone else is well below that.

That's a completely fair question.

I'm a senior developer who works on distributed systems for one of the largest Italian private held financial institutions.

To be completely honest I know almost nothing about finance, I just know how to make reliable software for them.

I've been there for almost 4 years now, I started as a contractor but they offered a substantial yearly bonus to the base salary so I accepted the hiring proposal.

Before that I've been an independent contractor for more than a decade and at the end I was making a bit less but not far from that. I mainly worked for overseas companies remotely (a few times I went over there for short periods - weeks or a couple of months) or in agencies here in Italy that worked for the fashion industry.

Must say it all changed when I moved to Milan, I could dream this kind of salary in my birth city (Rome)

Hi, I'm Italian too working in Milan, just wondering if you have any suggestions on how to get these kind of offers, i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin.

if you don't mind we can talk about it via email.

> i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin

Can they do that? Just hire through a small network of people in the know? Sounds like a recipe for cronyism.

I'm not sure about Italy but in the UK companies legally have to advertise a job publicly and, if they receive an application that meets the criteria, I think they have to at least consider it, if not conduct an interview. That's not to say there is no nepotism, but there are measures to control it.

There is no legal requirement in the UK to advertise a job publicly in general, and no legal hindrance to explicit nepotism for that matter.

However there is a requirement not to discriminate on the basis of certain characteristics, and the easiest way of protecting against such claims is to advertise publicly.

But a huge number of jobs in the UK are never publicly advertised anyway.

Don't know Italy, but two things stands out above:

Getting in via contracting, and financial services.

Financial services tends to often have salaries significantly above the average for developers, and having gone the same route of contracting first myself it has some definite advantages:

- You establish your value on charging a high day rate that is entirely within the norm as a contractor but usually well above the pay for a permanent employee of similar seniority.

- The company knows you when you negotiate the permanent contract, so you represent a lower hiring risk.

- It's easier to appear as if you have options. E.g. when I went full time permanent, I had been on a part time contract, and I could point out that I had realistic expectations of booking a very significant amount of income over the following year from clients already mostly lined up, so to go permanent I made it clear the offer needed to justify to me why I should give that up.

This route is tougher and more uncertain, and frankly I wouldn't recommend it unless you're happy contracting as there's no guarantee you'll find a contract where they'll want to hire you.

Hello fellow Meneghino!

The usual advices apply here:

- you solve problems, sell yourself as that. It's okay to fill a résumé with technical skills, but also add something that tells potential clients/employers what you really do (developer is ok, experienced frontend designer/iOS developer is better) and what they can use you for. Sell your experience(s)

- if you're above junior (you are confident with at least one major technology) start charging at least 200-250 a day. Charge more if the rate is hourly. It is honest to ask at least for that. You usually will work 200-220 days/year so don't multiply your rates for 365 or you will be disappointed at the end of the year.

- remember that if you are doing contract jobs you are in charge of your taxes and retirement savings, so account for that in your rates. It's easy to dismiss a rate as "too high" until you start factoring in the expenses.

- if you find offsite jobs (you are sent to the client's office) add to your rates travel expenses and hotels/relocation if you have to move. Don't take jobs that won't accept it or will try to pay you a little more. You are payed for your job, they should cover any extra. Including lunches/dinners out. They are probably asking at least 2x to the client of what they are paying you.

- hire an accountant, they can save you thousands euros/year. It's worth the cost.

Are the 100k before or after taxes and social security? That's quite impressive for an employee position in Italy, good for you!

If you can say, how would you judge the competency of the developers working for your company? From time to time I interact as an external contractor with developers from banks/insurances et similar and the average level of their IT has seemed quite lackluster to me.

In general I think sofware development in Italy suffers from a low-balling syndrome. Developers are not held in high esteem and are not paid much, so developer positions do not attract many capable and ambitious people - most either move to management positions as soon as possible, start contracting or move abroad.

Before taxes.

I think developers in Europe in general sell themselves short, they feel like outcasts who have to go through suffering for having a better job than the average. I used to be like that, I would accept lower rates to not feel obligated to wear a suit and a tie.

Now I don't care anymore, still don't wear ties at work, I show up late in the morning (not a morning person, sorry!) but charge what I think is the right amount.

> The whole corporation is basically a 2-person-empire (the only two people that own shares and have taken the thing from 1 store to ~13k stores globally). They make every major call, and even random minor calls. It should be mentioned that they are 72 and 80 years old, respectively.

Sounds very similar to Dyson. The biggest problem is that nobody wants to make decisions because what's the point when James Dyson is just going to come along and casually overruled it? Especially frustrating if it's something he isn't interested in.

> They are getting into the car sales and recycle business as well. Just to give you an impression.

They were also supposed to get into housing.

> they are getting into the car sales and recycle business

To be fair, the recycle business is basically "free money" in Germany.

Interesting! I would have expected competition with eg Aldi would have kept them on their toes?

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