Tesla has already started making cars again at its California factory
theverge.com
theverge.com
He also suddenly found his "Free America" spirits, while being completely numb about how the Chinese government shutdown its cities and lied about the virus.
Now it is all starting to fall in place. When I bought my car in late 2016, Elon promised FSD in 3-6 months. We are still decades away from FSD and my Tesla still randomly phantom brakes on Autopilot
This factory saga is the latest where he unleashed his followers to wreck havoc on a county health officer, who is anyways under pressure of re-opening. And of course, not to mention that he has no concerns about workers in the factory.
I think the conclusion is fairly simple - Elon is not special. He is the same old.
i found that a bit wierd because he was complaining about twitter where people just say things without evidence, and there he was saying things without presenting any evidence...
source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
> The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) yesterday released new guidance implementing several provisions included in the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act. These provisions include:
> + A Medicare add-on payment of 20% for both rural and urban inpatient hospital COVID-19 patients;
> + Waiver of the long-term care hospital (LTCH) site-neutral policy for COVID-19 patients;
> + Waiver of the LTCH “50% Rule” for COVID-19 patients; and
> + Waiver of the inpatient rehabilitation facility (IRF) “3-hour Rule” for COVID-19 patients.
source: https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-04-16-coronavirus-update-c...
It's very clear that this is potentially happening on a mass scale. There is nothing preventing it from happening, at least, and the hospitals are under serious financial pressure due to the inability to perform elective surgeries. You cannot invalidate what he's saying. It's easy to chalk that up as yet another conspiracy theory. But at the same time, why wouldn't a hospital take advantage of programs like this? There's very little threat of it coming back to bite them -- there's no enforcement.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav...
I wouldn't say it's "magic" but I do think that this year has been very abnormal to the point that mortality rates aren't directly comparable.
Nobody is saying coronavirus isn't real. A lot of people are dying from it, but that doesn't mean it can't be overreported.
They pay people for reporting Medicare or Medicaid fraud now, so even if the staff at the hospitals had no ethics what-so-ever, they have considerable financial motive to report it.
i live in a small rural town with a hospital under serious final distress and it is for sure happening here.
Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by "shutdown its cities"? From my impression this was to contain the spread of the virus.
Disclaimer: Chinese national here.
Silicon Valley used to be famous for people like Bill Hewlett and David Packard, Andy Grove and Gordon Moore, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. In the latest generation, we have people like Zuck and Peter Thiel and Elon. No wonder our reputation is worse than Wall Street's.
Silicon Valley in general is full of remarkable people and companies. And it can be both positive and negative. Elon Musk is definitely a smart guy, saying he is a genius is I think, not exaggerated. It doesn't mean he is perfect. In fact, just like Steve Jobs, I think he is an asshole.
Zuck gets a lot of flack because of his view on your privacy (you have none), but Facebook often comes off as a great company to work with. So if you are on the topic of how employees are treated, don't put Elon and Zuck in the same bag.
Another reason why the old silicon valley was better is that it now has matured. They are not just explorers, they are now in production phase, seeking a sustainable business model for billions of people. The unwashed masses now have access to computers and the internet, and it is a good thing. So naturally, we need different kinds of people, and they tend to be less sympathetic. Explorers are still there, but not as prominent, computing is a mature field now, and not all discoveries are breakthrough.
Although it is a big factory they work quite spaced out in their departments. The health officials in CA must have found some issues they were not aware of, but due to talk tomorrow so will be interesting to see their point of view on the latest developments.
The media has developed a bad habit of amplifying the views of tiny discontented activist minorities inside major companies and presenting their opinions (which are often radical) as if they were typical of the majority. After seeing many examples of this kind of total distortion over the years, I simply can't believe any reports about what employees at major companies think.
Or the CA Health Officials are drunk with power, and/or have a must lower risk tolerance than the average person
We have seen countless arbitrary and illogical conditions and rules placed upon people by government, things like banning chairs on a beach but sitting in the sand is fine, things like keeping lotto sales open but banning the sales of seeds. Arbitrary designation as to what "essential" business means and countless others
To me it is more likely that the CA government just wants to mandate and control when things happens and does not like it when people challenge their authority
Somewhat pathetic to sue your local government for that.
> Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me.
Also note that he's opening at 100% (not 30% staff) and seems to have taken zero measures "learned from Shanghai". I'm guessing when his plane arrives he'll bring in a couple of masks for the photo ops.
Elon Musk is violating rules intended to keep people safe. And he's doing so to keep a business running that benefits him more than any of his employees. (You could make a different argument if this were a worker-owned cooperative.)
Is it good leadership because he's asking that only he be arrested? I don't think anyone on HN believes Elon will actually go to jail. Good leadership because he's (saying that he is) on the line? Elon cosplaying as an assembly line worker for a day doesn't make him a good leader.
A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe. Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/05/elon-musk-tesla-700-million-p...
"Keep people safe". That's the mantra for every tyrannical nanny state. We are doing this for your own good. It's why in china you can't watch youtube, it's why weed was illegal, it's why people demand certain books be banned from libraries, it's the reason for government privacy violations, etc. It's all to keep you safe. It's amazing the number of pro-authoritarion justifications here. You would think it would be the exact opposite.
> A good leader would be doing their best to keep their employees safe.
Keep employees safe while working and getting paid. Working and getting paid is a very important part of employment. Also, there is risk in all employment.
> Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify for another round of stock incentive is not good leadership, no more what theatrics he's publicizing on Twitter.
The idea that you care more about musk's employees than he does is absurd. After all he needs those employees to "qualify for another round of stock incentive". The virtue signaling over covid is very strange because it's pro-authoritarian and people are parroting the same talking points.
Sure musk wants to reopen his plant for selfish reasons, but everyone here attacking him are also acting out of selfish reasons - to keep the economy weak. I wonder if this is an election year?
Ahh the old "greater good", most violations of human rights begin with a speech about the greater good...
>Putting thousands of people at risk in order to qualify
Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective.
Do so with out using Appeals to Authority, or making a claim that "well the government says"
We are (or are suppose to be) a free society, not serf's of the government
And yet, plenty of controls to protect people don't turn into permanent revocations of human rights. Why, when this argument comes up, do we conveniently forget about those? Do you really think that the plan of governments around the world is to cripple their GDP output and keep everyone locked inside as some sort of mass population control exercise? And a pandemic that would benefit from these types of actions was just a great time to pull the trigger without anyone noticing?
I honestly don't understand this argument. On one end of the spectrum you have complete freedom with no laws, police & fire departments, public education, militaries, government welfare programs, airport security, etc. On the other hand, you have whatever world you fear we'll end up in when all of our rights are stripped. It would seem to me that most first world countries sit somewhere between those two, because we've generally decided there are many freedoms we're happy to give up (some temporarily, some permanently) for the betterment of society overall. Particularly those where one person's freedom would directly impact another person's right to life.
You can certainly say that you think we should open the country back up and that these restrictions are unnecessary, and provide your supporting data for that argument. But suggesting that this is some fundamental violation of human rights feels like quite a reach.
I am sure we are going to disagree on many of those. I am sure my definition of human rights, and liberty is very different from yours.
>Do you really think that the plan of governments around the world is to cripple their GDP output and keep everyone locked inside as some sort of mass population control exercise?
No, I do not believe it is conspiracy of population control, I think it run of the mill every day incompetence, panic, and fear at work
the road to hell is not paved with evil conspiracy, it is paved with good intentions
To be clear, I would not oppose all of the governments response to this pandemic, however I do oppose many many of the provisions of the lock down orders. I also oppose many of the individual actions of government officials, things like threatening a teen with arrest for an Instagram post, or the mayor of Chicago threatening to arrest anyone for getting a hair cut while posting on social media her getting a haircut... or releasing thousands of inmates from prison then arresting a business owner, putting her in the same jail that was deemed to unfit for convicted criminals all for refusing to close her business...
>I honestly don't understand this argument.
it is clear you do not understand the argument, you probably also do not understand why anyone would want to put individualism over the collective, or rights above safety
>> But suggesting that this is some fundamental violation of human rights feels like quite a reach.
I guess that depends on what you call human rights. I believe that all human rights flow from the Principle of Self Ownership. I believe in individualism and voluntary cooperation. I reject collectivism and cooperation via force.
I believe tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry and I do not believe the majority has the ethical right to deiced that I give up my rights for their safety, or that because the majority agrees to "give up" their rights they then have the ethical right to use force to compel me to give up mine.
I believe the law is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense, the law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. In that defense there is some room for government action to defend people from COVID, however I believe many of the governments actions moved far beyond justifiable defense, into organizing injustice.
The analogy fails because serfs couldn't vote for their king. We have a democracy here, albeit an imperfect one. So far California has a low COVID death rate, especially for a state that was hit early with outbreaks in its two biggest metropolitan areas: LA and the South Bay. It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives.
The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government. Billionaire CEOs like Elon Musk threaten our health and livelihoods by pressuring workers to come back to unsafe work environments early. Elon spending a day taking selfies on the assembly line notwithstanding.
> Quantify and prove that risk, and prove that Tesla's mitigation are not effective.
The burden of proof is not on me to to show that an auto assembly plant is safe for workers during an epidemic. The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant. The US has a long history of sweatshop, factory and mine owners coercing employees to work in dangerous conditions. Elon telling his employees to expose themselves to COVID to keep his plant running on time is keeping in that shameful tradition.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=vM-5XtjsIJLM-gTIm6CIDw&q=ca...
Ahh so we have traded serfdom to the king, for serfdom to the majority.. I thought the idea was for individual rights, and those rights were to be security from the mob mentality of the majority.
we have a Constitutional REPUBLIC for a reason..., and one of those reasons is to prohibit the government from doing some things even if the will of the majority demands it
>>It's almost certain that our early shelter in place orders (from our elected government) has saved hundreds of lives.
There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown. It is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role.it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data
>>The reality is that, for many Americans, our boss exercises more power over our lives than our government.
only if you allow it. a Boss does not have the power to put you in a cage, or even kill you for disobeying, the most they can do it cause temporary economic harm, the fact that you discount that difference or even elevate the denial of a paycheck over that of the monopoly of violence is crazy to me.
No your boss does not have more power over your life than the government, No where near it.
>>The burden of proof is on the owner of the plant.
I believe they have done that, and the workers can choose to come back or not. We have have choices in life, unlike mandates by government which are backed by men with guns who will kill you if you defy them, Elon has no power to force anyone back into that factory, they can all choose to stay home.
Further to compare today's employment with the past of coal mines, and sweatshops either shows your ignorance of those times, or is purposefully disingenuous, Coal mines of those days for example paid their employees in Company Script, and they lived in company housing, there is no comparison to that and today's economic reality and doing so just makes you look foolish and/or ignorant
Blindly going along with rules just because they're intended to keep people safe whether or not they actually a benefit overall isn't exactly a strong indicator of independent thinking.
Musk is demonstrating real leadership here because he's putting not only his company, but also his personal freedom on the line. He's putting a huge amount of skin in the game and asking to share the fate of the people he's asked to help him. That takes guts --- far more guts than you see among the mewling leadership of most big tech companies.
You may not agree with what Musk is doing, but he's being direct, sincere, and bold, and yes, that's real leadership, and it's missing in most places.
Seems like policy makers in the US fail on both counts, no?
Secondly you need to think about the fact that Musk is going ballistic about the US being a totalitarian state- and we're meant to be looking at China as the comparison? Really? I'd love to see a Chinese CEO make statements about the Chinese government like Musk makes about the US.
Finally, the government isn't even saying that Tesla shouldn't reopen the plant, they're just working on making sure they're doing it safely. And you should be listening to the government about this, because it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Musk that he can't be trusted on this topic.
There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown
it is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role.
Governments like to say that to justify their actions, and secure their authority for their future response
it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data
>>And you should be listening to the government about this, because it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Musk that he can't be trusted on this topic.
Why government has been routinely wrong on many fronts, including the CA Government. Why should I blindly listen to either government or Musk?
>>Finally, the government isn't even saying that Tesla shouldn't reopen the plant, they're just working on making sure they're doing it safely.
I think it naive to believe the government is purely altruistic and are only thinking about the "health and safety of the people"
Just like there are number of reasons why CA is doing better than NYC, there is an equal number of reasons why the Local Health authorities may want to delay Tesla that have nothing to do with the health and safety inside that plant
China's Covid19 deaths per 1 million is actually 3, not 58. As of today, 4633 deaths for a population of 1.4 BN. Maybe that's manipulated, but it's hard to believe they are hiding 95% of the deaths.
So, yes, in the matter of Covid19, we should better look at China as the comparison. Did you see drones checking if people are wearing masks? Did you see temperature checks when people enter various buildings. Photos where absolutely everybody is wearing a mask, fully covering their nose (not like in the US where they wear it under their chin many times). Rapid testing, people being escorted to a quarantine center, etc, etc.
Now, I am not arguing in favor or Tesla resuming production. I don't know much about this to have an opinion. But strictly on the topic whether we should admire the Chinese response to the Covid19 infection, I think we should give credit where credit is due.
The USA bragged about its western medical system, said the virus would miraculously disappear, and sold their supplies of PPE to china and other asian countries.
The USA has failed badly - and people like Elon, who spent months insisting the virus wasn’t dangerous and would go away (“The Coronavirus panic is dumb” - Elon Musk), are part of the reason why.
For someone who claimed going to 1/3rd of capacity and PPE for everyone, there seems to be a big gap between reality and "the plan to get back to work".
Even with perfect information, it would be unscientific to infer that A caused B.