Got a sweet tooth? Your gut bacteria are asking for some sugar | Hacker News Reader

Got a sweet tooth? Your gut bacteria are asking for some sugar

massivesci.com

61 pointsdazosan75 comments

I know fruit contain still a bunch of sugar, but a bunch of fibers and a treasure of nutriments

If only more kids were raised with more fruit and vegetable in mind than processed products.

What's a better treat than an apple, an orange, a persimmon, fig, kiwi (tip: don't hesitate to eat them with the skin, above all if they are organic), and spinach, salad and all sort of herbs, or even a raw scallion or leek for the adventurous?

It's a habit you need to keep your whole life. I grew up eating mostly fruit for dessert every day until I was 17. Once I left my parent's home I lost that habit very quickly. Now I'm 33 and still have to push myself to eat fruit instead of junk sweet food.

Modern fruit is so very sweet. I'd love to see a proper study of sugars and GI index in a 2020 Honeycrisp vs what the official stats say is in an apple. I really suspect it isn't much different from a candy bar.

surely yes, but the fiber along-side the fruit is very very important, for its nutritional value, and how it helps to slowly release the sugar in your intestine, like a sponge

Absolutely. That's why folks say fruit juice is not great, because you get the sugar with little of the beneficial stuff. 0

So everyone should drink their Pepsi with some Metamucil?

No. The theory is that, in order to get to the sugars, the body has to first break down the fiber in the fruit. This "flattens the curve" of sugar that is available to the body. That doesn't happen when you mix already separated sugar with fiber. But, it should be noted: this is merely a theory. In truth, not much is actually known about the finer details of human nutrition.

I actually think hey are too sour most of the time. That's one of the reasons I don't like eating fruits much.

Any GI index which is not determined on an individual level is likely to be useless.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2015.11.001

http://dx.doi.org/10.1001/jama.2014.16658

>What's a better treat than an apple, an orange, a persimmon, fig, kiwi...?

If 'better' refers to taste, the answer is simple: an Oreo.

Taste is in the tongue of the beholder.

For someone who has not eaten any chocolate bar or biscuits since 10 years, I'm not sure to like their taste anymore like I used to (unfortunately)

For someone who really likes sweet chocolate etc, an Oreo is too vulgar even too me. I feel sick to my stomach. Powdery sugar with something brown in it.

I still miss Hydrox cookies.

You can (could?) order them online. I ordered some last year and found them to be “crisper” than Oreos. In a side-by-side taste test, my family agreed that fresh Oreos seemed stale by comparison.

Are there different Oeros? What you described doesn't seem to fit the description of a the North American Oreo. It's artificial sweetened shortening wedged between two chocolaty "wafers". No powdery sugar involved.

> Are there different Oreos?

In fact... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oreo_varieties

But I suspect they are describing the texture of the classic wafer when chewed, which does seem like an apt description.

Oh yeah there's a ton of varieties, but I was wondering if there was a regional thing here where the products are totally different even with the same name, like chips.

No I mean the classic (I assume) dark wafer with white shortening in it. Now I also remembered how vile the white stuff is too - it kind of sticks to your upper palate.

There are sugar overloaded competitors [0], which are pretty shameless too. But at least they taste like an honest lot of sugar, flavouring, fat and flour.

I feel bad for kids getting fat on Oreos. If you get fat on real sweets, at least you taste something decent in the process. Oreos are vile. I have given them the benefit of a doubt!

I have even tried putting them in ice cream, thinking maybe they are just too sweet, and that their sweetness will fit better together with something else not as intensely sweet. But no, the ice cream just diluted the Oreo vile-ness. The perverted, gone-one-step-too-far industrial wiff of Cthulhu was still in there, carefully masking the fun from each spoonful of icecream.

Vile.

0: https://www.goteborgskex.se/products/

That's a lot of vitriol for a tasty vegan snack.

Uranium, selected from the finest natural ore, carefully enriched, is vegan too. :)

Harder to chew though.

Just grind it fine enough and mix it with vegetable shortening.

Oreos taste like sugar, chalk and chocolate. I used to love them but, the more I desensitize to the insane sugar levels in these types of food, they have become kind of nasty. They make me feel horrible and taste funny.

Actually I can't detect much chocolate taste. Sugar and chalk.

ugh, no idea how anyone can "enjoy" these.

much like things like Twinkies and Peeps... I dont understand how they became so popular with the american taste buds.

I feel ill after eating one Twinkie, Peeps are so sweet they make my teeth hurt. (Australian here)

Personally, a sweetish orange. Apples are more texture than flavor, and figs have too many tiny seeds. Kiwis are too tart. And the veggies are fine but an orange is way better.

Oh my. The mouth texture of figs, including the crunch of the seeds, is probably the single best thing about them.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/blogs/are-there-re...

Not saying that's bad. It's just funny.

Wait until he hears about dates.

I had never seen a fresh fig until my thirties when I moved to the West Coast. The insides are so alien looking that it creeps me out (and let's all agree not to think about fig wasps). But, my God, what a divine fruit. They are truly heavenly. One of the rare foods that is near perfection all on its own.

We were doing this, but the lockdowns pretty much blew a hole in it. It's difficult to maintain eating this kind of food without going to the store every 2-3 days or accidentally end up throwing out massive amounts of food every once in a while.

> One of the key things in the study is that all of the action is happening away from the tongue. This shows that there are circuits inducing our love for sugar, beyond our love for sweet tastes. This also helps explain why artificial sweeteners have not changed our consumption of sugar, since they fail to activate this new gut-brain circuit.

Could this be (yet) another explanation of why people who use artificial sweeteners don’t control their weight or real sugar intake in the long run? Developing habits is quite hard for many people. Any advancement in handling sugar addiction (without other negative side effects) could prove to be a good thing for all humans (except the ones running corporations whose purpose is to create, maintain and increase such addictions).

Maybe. Or maybe you're just bored and looking for a distraction. I'm certainly guilty of that.

HN + Ice Cream is 200% more interesting than HN without Ice Cream.

When you are craving something, ask yourself: "Would I eat boiled tilapia because I'm so hungry?"

If the answer is no, you're not hungry. Just bored, or thinking of food. Reductionist, but it works for me.

Writing it down before giving in to your craving also helps immensely. Shameless plug, I do run a nutrition tracking company at https://www.joyapp.com. But even a handwritten log will help.

I've found I crave food for the reduction in anxiety. Fasting makes me feel panicked and anxious. (Like I need to get outside and chase down something to eat RIGHT AWAY.) Eating relieves that anxious feeling. It's not true hunger, just pain and suffering. Exercise and controlled breathing help a little. But mostly just make the effects happen faster.

Oh 100%. If I run into a seemingly unsolvable technical challenge, I go eat and it takes my mind off of it.

But I'm not sure that's a healthy pattern. Better would be to go for a walk or the like.

Sounds like withdrawal (sugar).

See: white bread intake, sugar intake.

Yeah, seems to not be a problem after 2 days of fasting. I kind of focus on protein and fat before a fast to try and get there a little earlier.

Why does this article talk about bacteria?

I don't see any mention of bacteria in the original article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2199-7 Instead, if I understand it correctly, it seems to say that it's certain intestinal cells (not bacteria) that sense sugar. Do I misunderstand, or is the news article wrong?

The Nature article's abstract says:

> neurons in the vagal ganglia and brainstem are activated via the gut–brain axis to create preference for sugar

Wikipedia says:

> Broadly defined, the gut–brain axis includes the central nervous system, neuroendocrine and neuroimmune systems, including the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis (HPA axis), sympathetic and parasympathetic arms of the autonomic nervous system, including the enteric nervous system and the vagus nerve, and the gut microbiota.[1]

Having access to only the article's abstract, it's hard to know how or if the microbiota (bacteria, etc.) are involved in nerve activation. E.g., are the neurons activated directly by glucose, or are they activated by some chemical that the bacteria produce in the presence or absense of glucose?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut%E2%80%93brain_axis

I've had this sticky note on my monitor for 2 years that says 'what do my intestines want for lunch'

I'm very one dimensional and being in opposition of something trying to control me has helped me get much more in shape this decade. I basically got fit because of a personality flaw but I am happy with the results

An excellent example of "knowing yourself". Bravo for the improvements!

Can you elaborate on how reminding yourself of this has changed your behaviour? How do you action this?

interesting idea... forcing yourself to think with more than just hunger pangs.

Rule of thumb: If you don't think carrots taste sweet, you're eating too much sugar.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2199-7

"...these findings reveal a gut-to-brain post-ingestive sugar-sensing pathway critical for the development of sugar preference. In addition, they explain the neural basis for differences in the behavioral effects of sweeteners versus sugar, and uncover an essential circuit underlying the highly appetitive effects of sugar."

The article doesn't mention whether giving those bacteria the sugar they want is a good thing. I am not an expert by any means but I have researched this extensively as a lay-person. I would be very concerned that this sugar is feeding the wrong kind of bacteria (or fungus) and would ultimately be harmful. That's before you consider the negative effects of consuming sugar.

> These neurons are stimulated in response to sugar but not artificial sweeteners

That kind of sucks for those who reach for e.g. stevia to add to their tea when feeling the sweet tooth?

> Brain stem and vagal ganglia

So would it be appropriate to guess that this sugar benefit has something to do with the brain processing more primal pressures, like really harsh treatment by a boss at work?

"The scientists directly injected either glucose or an artificial sweetener to the guts of mice, and saw an activation of different regions of the brain when glucose was present, but not with the artificial sweetener. "

How do they directly inject?

In humans this would typically be an oral or naseo-gastric tube that runs down to the stomach, effectively bypassing the mouth.

Of course you could use a needle but that's generally rare.

Not sure what is considered standard for mice.

Maybe an artificial, intentional fistula like they do with cows to study and monitor their digestion.

> they genetically silenced that specific brain region, which completely took away the mice’s preference for sugar

Hopefully it will not come to that in humans and someone finds a way to "re-educate" gut bacteria :)

It's easy to re-educate them with fasting.

and a long-term diet change

That mostly works if one is able to stay away from other humans and social events forever. For the rest, there are ditches everywhere to fall into.

Self-discipline. Impulses and social pressure are more like brightly lit billboards than ditches. You don’t have to fall for them.

I think our current culture over-emphasizes "self-discipline" or "willpower" and doesn't admit the influence of our environment enough.

Personally, as a nearly-life-long sugar junkie, I know that if I'm around a pile of cookies, it is difficult to resist, and will wear me down until I eat one, and then another, and then another...

On the other hand, if there is no pile of cookies, there's no temptation or possibility of that happening.

I have had much more success with adjusting my environment than with trying to exercise willpower.

Any source on that?

My personal experience: After fasting, I do not start craving sugar unless I eat it again.

Honestly, I'd sign up for something that removed my preference for sugar.

I'd argue I could probably lose 10-15 pounds right away.

Same, I would love to kill my craving for sugar.

I wonder if fecal matter transplants are a way of doing this, since they supposedly populate your gut with 'good' bacteria.

4 hours fast is enough, and eat properly. Trimming in the gut for that goes very fast. I find that skipping breakfast is a nice way as well, and durable over time. You need to get friendly with the sensation of hunger.

I highly doubt that a 4 hour fast is sufficient for anything. Any guy bacteria that can't survive through a nights sleep would have been wiped out long ago.

It's not as much for getting rid of the bacteria but rather ending the continous stream of eating thay we end up with.

They can, but they can also populate your gut with worse bacteria. More research is needed. It is promising but I wouldn't do it until more studies are done.

In the mean time years of eating right will feed the good and kill the bad. Over time you will catch more good bacteria which will grow and multiply. Depending on what you eat, different good foods demand different good bacteria.

I have a good friend who was hired a couple of years ago at a psychological clinic to build a program for treating depression without pharmaceuticals where possible focusing instead on diet, gut health and exercise. After talking with her I got curious and started doing a lot of research on gut health and food. Up until then, I had never heard of fermenting vegetables and I wondered if an experiment with those would help me get over a bad burnout.

I read about all kinds of chemical and nutritional details and studies and edge cases I didn't understand. I tried fermenting some beans which turned out terrible reminding me I had no idea what I was doing. But I kept at it. One day, a couple of months into the experiment, by then I was fermenting successfully and enjoying it daily, when I realized that my life-long love of sugar was simply gone. I have no idea where it went. I wasn't on a diet, I wasn't restricting my food choices in any way other than to be sure I ate a couple of spoonfuls of ferment each day; it just disappeared. I never expected that to happen...

If you really want to kill that craving, try fermenting nearly any vegetable you like and just eat a little bit each day. It takes time for your gut bacteria to improve but fermenting is quick and easy to do and it costs next to nothing. Feel free to get in touch via the email in my profile if you have any questions at all and good luck!

You can do a zero sugar, zero carb fast for three days. Once the gut bacteria starve and die the cravings disappear. The first two days are a bit tough.

Any source for this? Because if this is true, I'm willing to try. Absolutely no carbs is really hard, though. I'd essentially have to drink rapeseed oil for 3 days... Even butter has carbs.

Eating vegetables for three days seems easy enough.

A lot of vegetables have carbs.

Sugars are carbs but carbs are not sugars

I've done it myself (zero calorie water fast) and it worked for me (n=1). The difference between day two and day three is stark. It's free and easy to try. Maybe check with your physician first if you are on medications or have health issues. If the question that you are trying to answer is "will this work for me?" then there aren't any papers that I know of which will answer that. :)

Drink water. This is a full on fast.

Check with your doctor first. My cousin did this for a month got type I diabetes. (I suspect he would have anyway given his genetics, but the fast changed his body enough to bring it on sooner)

Just anecdata- several times I've done something similar and I noticed after 3-5 days I'm just not into grabbing a candy bar or maybe a leftover dessert. When I shop I'm even a little turned off by most sweets.

The most recent experience has been the quarantine. We stocked up on essentials from costco, which meant no sweets. After going a couple of months without candy, I entered a market yesterday wanting to grab some basics and a snack or two. I ended up with beef jerky and some gold fish crackers. It's not like they're healthy, but it's out of character for me.

yeah I'll add to "anecdata".

I've trained myself to not want to add sugar to anything, after a while I stopped wanting to have things that had a lot of sugar in them.

I'll still go for a bit of carrot cake with a coffee on a weekend outing to the shops or something. but my day-to-day activities no longer want sugar in my coffee or tea or Chicroy

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