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I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long.
You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them:
https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416...
Western media romanticizes the whole thing by not reporting anything about the dark side of the movement, and by cutting footage to make the rioters look like heroes: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/125835760285075456...
Here's the real story, I've written a summary just earlier today: https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928
This isn't just about one or two people who are criminals. The rioting, the violence, the hate for mainlanders (hate for PEOPLE, not just CCP) has completely taken over the movement. Heck, I don't even dare going to Hong Kong anymore -- as someone with a mainland background, I fear for my life.
Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040
The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti.
My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype.
What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners?
> You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom?
Yes.
> Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416....
I looked but the video wouldn't play.
If that's what happened then that's also bad.
Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. I also don't get my news from mainstream Western new media because they are biased (I agree with you about that.)
> Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040
I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers.
But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. Chinese culture is a part of my culture. I grew up in San Francisco. There has always been a Chinese cultural influence in my life. The first Chinese New Years Parade was held here in 1851 (predating the communist party by ~70-80 years, eh?)
Also, there are millions of Chinese that do not live in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese
So China as a people and a culture is much much older and larger than the communists. That is the China that lives in my affections. I want to add that Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" is the greatest book of wisdom in the world (in my opinion.)
CCP != China
You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism!
You just can't.
People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh?
> My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China.
"...of the CCP" you mean. I don't blame Chinese people for the crimes of the CCP.
> If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from.
A billion and a half people don't need any help from me.
> This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype.
I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I don't follow the media.
FWIW, I straight up studied China for awhile until I realized how vast it was and how silly and arrogant I was to think that I could possibly encompass it. Now all I want is for the CCP to stop trying to edit history, stop locking people in mass concentration camps, stop stealing their organs, and stop fucking with the South China Sea. Those seem simple enough for even me to opine on, in all my ignorance.
It's about the accuracy of the claim that there's involuntary harvesting going on: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harve...
There was harvesting going on of prisoners that have already been executed. China admitted as much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 This practice has stopped since 2015.
> Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter.
Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about the fact that most media outlets don't publish videos like these. But the video footage speak for themselves. Here's evidence of rioters setting a man on fire for disagreeing with them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs
If you are interested in a more long-form discussion about what's going on in Hong Kong, check out Daniel Dumbrill, a Canadian who lived in Hong Kong and now lives in Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg
> I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers.
Thanks. I'm already plenty glad that you're at least willing to take a look, even if you disagree.
> But I can tell you what I mean when I say that.
All right, point taken.
For the sake of discussion, I'll limit my scope here to mainlanders, not the diaspora.
I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland.
> You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism!
The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government.
For some perspective, try this video. This is an interview between an American and a Canadian, who both live in China. They discuss their experience with Chinese society, and things (including things about the government) are different from what they thought it is based on western views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI
It also kinda depends on what you mean by criticize. If you try to incite riots or government overthrow, or if you work with foreign agencies -- yeah they REALLY don't like that sort of stuff, and you'll get into a lot of trouble. But for more perspective, try this example:
In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted.
> People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh?
The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations.
Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic.
In re: the organ harvesting, I really hope you're right. I mean I really fervently hope you're right.
(It reminds me of the Walled City of Kowloon. I saw a BBC documentary about it and was haunted for years. Then one day I looked it up and, lo and behold, they had torn it down years ago. Always value new information, eh?)
> But the video footage speak for themselves.
But they don't. I'm not going to watch that (I have firm policy not to watch footage of IRL death. I watched "Faces of Death" in high school with my friends and regretted it.) but whatever it shows I'm not a video expert so I can't tell what it actually is: it could be fake, or even deepfake.
(FWIW I am firmly against setting people on fire, under pretty much any circumstance, for pretty much any reason. I think we can all agree that things have gone too far when someone gets immolated.)
When you get right down to it, I have no idea what's really going on over there, and no way of finding out.
The best I can do is go by things like the actual formal actions of the CCP, which don't seem good. (Although, as I say that, I recall that they presided over one of, if not the, greatest economic transformation on Earth. So: good job on that. Credit where credit is due.)
> check out Daniel Dumbrill
Despite what I just said, I'll do that. Always value new information, eh?
> I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland.
Cheers! Well met.
FWIW, I'm serious when I say I like China. Y'all are like a stern and distant Grandfather: wise and kind but also a little frightening. Don't tell the other Americans I said that, though, okay? ;-)
For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. In the USA, I feel that we are kind of all to blame for things like invading Iraq on a pretext, or electing a human cartoon character to be POTUS.
> I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland.
Yeah... * sigh * me too. But I don't like it.
It's been long enough IMO, and they are stable enough (again in my almost-worthless opinion) and the UN let them in, yeah?
Honestly, we over here were all set for the great Eastern Glasnost, if you will, and it's really a downer that China seems hung up on sabre-rattling. Can't we all just settle down and make some money? There are asteroids and Mars and places to go and things to do...
> The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government.
Again, I really and sincerely hope you are right!
As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. "Donald Trump is a pathetic excuse for a President!" See? No one cares. But jokes aside, as long as the CCP is punishing criticism at all they'll never be fully legitimate (again, in my all-but-worthless opinion!)
It's a weakness. Same with trying to rewrite history.
They either have to get their act together and be big enough to admit mistakes -or- pressure the rest of the whole wide world into toeing the line on their political picture-show. That sets them on an inevitable clash with Western-style freedom of speech. It's bad policy even for a legitimate government.
The stability of China is crucial to the whole world. If the legitimate government is weak that's a cause for concern.
But again, I know just enough about China to know how inadequate my knowledge is, so this is all just the ranting of a rando on the internet, eh? :-)
> For some perspective, try this video
I will. Despite it all, always value new information, eh?
> In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua.... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted.
Okay, but that happens here too. That wasn't the same thing as standing in front of the White House with a sign saying "Donald Trump is Winnie the Pooh".
> The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations.
Alright, I'll credit that. Cheers.
> Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic.
Now that I agree with. Thank you for an enlightening conversation, and I really will read/watch those links (not the one with the person getting burned to death, but the other ones) FWIW.
A few additions:
The man who got burned didn't die. He got hospitalized for a few months. He is now recovered, but with scars and trauma. Here is an interview with his wife back when he was still in coma: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife...
FYI, SCMP is based in HK, though they are partly owned by a mainland company. Still, I find that SCMP as a whole is pretty balanced. The site has a mix of pro and anti CCP articles. The sentiment varies between authors.
> For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does.
I understand.
To me, the people are to blame too. As explained in the article, CCP has 90 million members. Just the party only has more people than many EU countries. Many members are normal people: doctors, nurses, factory workers, businessmen. The CCP isn't a small elite who rules over the mainland, they are the fabric of mainland society.
The madness of the cultural revolution wasn't a CCP only thing. Many people supported the madness, that's why it took off. We all own the madness. Nowadays we can see that it was wrong.
I think there is nothing wrong with the normal people owning mistakes. I think it is rather crucial, in order to learn and move forward.
> As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous.
I see what you mean. China still isn't quite on that level. But don't know whether it ever will be.
But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to judge China by that standard. China has a very different history and condition. If you judge it by western standards, China will forever disappoint you, for nothing else but "it's not like the west".
Here's what I think is a better perspective to judge China by:
The country literally had 150 years of war, revolution and poverty. Starting 40 years ago or so, that is finally over. China was quite low on the Maslow pyramid of needs, so it's no wonder they prioritize food, safety, money, prosperity.
And they succeeded in that. Everyone can eat, which was not at all a given. 200 million people lifted out of poverty -- the biggest contribution in the world. Universal Healthcare. Millions of Chinese travel to foreign countries every year, and pretty much all of them voluntarily go back. For the most part, Chinese people nowadays live a normal live.
Economic freedom, the right to survival, the right to health, are human rights too. The CCP prioritizes those over freedom of speech. As a developing country, it is impossible to prioritize everything, so you have to make choices.
It's also not just a case of "China is still behind the west, but they are working on it, give them a break". On some dimensions, they are ahead, or at least different. For example:
Chinese cities are very safe. You can go out at night, into dark alleys, without getting mugged. The police don't carry guns, there's no need to.
China managed to restore huge parts of deserts into green land.
China as a state also faces threats. The censorship, which I don't like, is meant to protect against that. It's not so much criticism that they don't like (in fact there are official channels for submitting complaints), it's threats against the state. As an American that may sound weird, but recall that mainlanders are tired of 150 years of revolution. Now they want stability, unity, prosperity. And requires a stable state.
The threats are not theoretical, as I've found out recently. A big threat comes from... The US. The US regularly stages coups against governments they don't like. Even democratic governments. Democratic Iran in the 60s. And just now, Venezuela. Part of the reason why the CCP top leadership is so secretive, and why they are making society more controlling, is to protect against US lead coups.
Yeah if you wonder why the Chinese are putting Uyghurs in camps it's because the US and Saudi Arabia sent Uyghurs to fight their proxy war in Syria. You can imagine what the Chinese government thinks of that.
What's problematic to me is that a government censors information that could change people's minds. How can we call "legitimate" a government that is not allowing those who are supposed to be the source of its legitimacy, to access opinions and ideas that could influence their choice of which party they would legitimise?
Of course it would be hypocritical to say that our western governments don't try to do the same. But at least they are forced to limit the scope of their control to information that can somewhat fit under the umbrella of "National Security" -and at least their propaganda is forced to compete with everything else out there. Censoring by force books, websites and public media that express vastly opposing ideas is out of the question -as it should be -don't you agree?
As for disallowing criticism: nowadays it's not as bad as you think. Check my other threads.
I don’t have to try a dozen VPNs to read western news outlets anymore?
Does China have problems? Yes, many. But my point is rather that it's not the hellhole many people think it is.
And if this progress happened to coincide with loosening up the restrictions of personal freedoms and the censorship that you mention, perhaps the case is that a government that allowed more freedoms might had facilitated even more progress.
The states in the middle east, which had democracy forced upon them, aren't doing that well either.
It takes a while to get there, and not all stages of development of a country is a good match for democracy.
And you say that it is not that hard to do things less badly than before. I disagree. The CCP is literally the first functional and competent government they've had in 150 years. I think you are massively underestimating how difficult it is to develop China.
I am not saying economic concerns should forever be their number one priority. At some point that has to change. But is democracy really the best path for China right now? Do they deserve no credit for what they have already achieved?
Perhaps the (late) CCP deserves credit for improving economy, infrastructure, efficiency and quality of life, to the extent that it did. And for being less cruel than its predecessors.
It is just that from the perspective of westerners, it is hard to judge positively a government that still has no respect for individual freedoms and private aspects of people's lives -i.e. looking the social score system, it is a step to the wrong direction.
My worry is that if the Chinese people become complacent and just feel grateful that they have more prosperity than before, the day where they are able to enjoy the freedoms that every person deserves will be far. And that, if they are not used to having free access to information and being in control, it will be more likely for someone less peaceful than the current CCP leadership in the future to start a war or something.
Taiwan and the Republic of China debunks this.
Maybe you're talking about how Taiwan does not like the CCP. Correct. So let me be clear: when I said "Chinese people" I'm referring to mainlanders.
You claim that all mainlanders like the CCP, which is a spurious claim given not only how impossible it is to generalize over such a huge group (including people the CCP is actively persecuting, such as Uyghurs!) but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it.
Even aside from that, your conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders" and further conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders who like the CCP" is precisely what I'm talking about. It's improper, it's politically biased, and it destroys the conversation we're supposedly trying to have here.
> but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it.
See my other thread regarding this topic.
One managed to mishear "Uighur Muslims" (yes, there are anti-anti-China people who don't know who they are, and yes, they misheard "Uighur" as a word starting with "N") and it took me quite some annoyance to get that straightened out and everybody on the "Chinese people pretty cool, Xi really not so much" page.
This shouldn't be hard to get across, except the CCP is very interested in ensuring people don't distinguish between the government of the People's Republic of China and Chinese people as a whole. Which leads to criticism of the CCP/PRC being seen as racist, which adds lots of heat to the discussion but absolutely no light. Precisely what the CCP would want, were it to attempt to influence online discussions. But I'm sure the CCP doesn't try to influence online discussions.... right?
CCP influencing online discussions in the west? Hahahaha! As someone who's neutral (not even supportive) about the CCP, I can only hope that they become that competent within a decade. Those idiots still have no idea how sophisticated communication with western audiences needs to be. In the mean time, western media walks all over them, even with stories that are easily debunked.
You don't sound very neutral.
I am not. I have plenty of critique against them. But the sentiment in HN is already so anti China that there is no need for me to voice that critique.
I am not even saying "CCP good". I am saying "CCP not as bad as you think" and "there are alternative perspectives that are just as valid".
As for my hope that they become competent in media: it is to counter all the obvious lies. I mean... Wuhan lab virus? Really? And people willingly believe these stories all over the world?
Your insistence on not making a distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people makes it hard to engage in any discussion, as criticism of one is taken as criticism of the other. I have a strong feeling the CCP is depending on this mentality from it's people, playing up ethnonationalism and xenophobia to distract from any criticism towards them.
You said clearly you wish the CCP had better propaganda and communication, why? That would make them stronger, yet you claim to not be in favor of them. Do you care to clarify?
I gave the Wuhan lab virus theory as an example. Actually the entire COVID-19 reporting is a big example, and is what triggered me to speak up in the first place. I was in China in January, I personally witnessed the news, lockdown progression, etc. And yet when I look at western reporting, there is so much misinformation, so much unjustified blame for things that are obviously not true.
For example, I see so many comments on HN saying China covered up for months (they didn't -- downplayed jan 1 to jan 20 at most), saying that China deliberately allowed international flights from Wuhan after the lockdown in order to infect the world (they didn't), and more. I see so many extreme, obviously untrue information, that I see this as anti-China.
And Chinese media is very weak against such unsubstantiated attacks. How can I sit back, see all the lies and bullying, and not hope that Chinese media gets their act together? This has got nothing to do with whether I support the CCP in the end -- just because CCP has problems, and that there are legit criticisms against CCP, doesn't mean we should accept lies against CCP, nor does it mean that they shouldn't be able to defend themselves against lies.
Again, you're not actually saying anything here, these are just your perceptions.
> I see so many extreme, obviously untrue information, that I see this as anti-China.
Right as I said it seems that you view all criticism of the Chinese Communist Party as criticism of China and Chinese people. This makes you a (ethno)nationalist, which is ironically another western stereotype. That Chinese see all criticism of China as criticism of them personally.
> And Chinese media is very weak against such unsubstantiated attacks. How can I sit back, see all the lies and bullying, and not hope that Chinese media gets their act together?
It's hard to make any conclusion other than you see the CCP as fighting for your image as well as their own. I'm wondering if you are willing to concede this is the case, and if so how do you suggest someone like me to attempt any sort of dialogue? Seems self-defeating.
And if in your opinion I got something wrong, what is it? Thanks for your response ahead of time, I come in good faith to better understand you and your perspective.
I will admit that I have an emotional bond with China, by virtue of being born there. If you define nationalist as anyone who feels as having a personal stake at the reputation of a country, then I guess I am. I wish for the country to develop, to be prosperous, to be recognized as an equal (more on this later) and to be treated fairly.
I do not personally agree with that definition, because I see a nationalist as someone who accepts their country unquestionably, and someone who thinks their country is better than others. I conform to neither of those properties. China does have many problems, it’s lagging behind the west in many aspects. If you want me to list some (besides the obvious freedom of speech things): support for disabled people is not very good, hygiene of public toilets is poor, social safety net is not as good as e.g. Netherlands, the tendency of local governments to cover up bad news thanks to structural problems with incentives. I also don’t think China is better than others, I merely wish for it to be able to stand as an equal (in value, not in likeness) among western countries. Respect other countries, and be respected in return.
In this sense, you can also say I am a Dutch nationalist. Having lived in the Netherlands for longer than in China, I have absorbed many western ideas and ideals, some of which I think China should embrace better. I also wish for the Dutch to be well, and despite the high taxes and rigid rules here I am pretty glad at how well-managed the country is.
You suspect that CCP is deliberately instilling nationalism in order to make Chinese people unwilling to accept criticism against CCP. Here are my thoughts:
- For myself, it is not true. I lived in China until early primary school. I did learn a vague sense of being proud of being Chinese, but that isn’t very different from how e.g. Americans learn to be proud of their country. I didn’t learn much history yet, nor how the state works or how other foreign countries worked. Everything after age 8 was Dutch education. But I have always felt a disconnect between what here in the west I am told about China, vs my own experience and what family tell me. Only recently have I started to do my own research to learn where this disconnect comes from, and how Chinese history was like.
- This presupposes that the CCP can be neatly separated from the mainland people. And that if we cannot, then criticism is impossible. I agree with neither: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23124883
- The more I learn about Chinese history, the more I think you’ve got it backwards. The CCP derives legitimacy from preexisting nationalism. It was already there before the PRC founding, the CCP didn’t create it. The CCP top leadership are actually moderates: they try to suppress nationalism rather than making it bigger. For example: there is a saying that if the mainland Chinese were allowed to vote, they would’ve already launched an invasion against Taiwan already; while the CCP is happy with the status quo without openly saying it.
- I don’t know how much it applies to HN, but in the wider world, I see the statement ‘I am against CCP, not Chinese people’ being used merely as lip service. For example: Trump invoking the Hong Kong Freedom bill, and many people cheering on it, but the only thing the bill does is hurting HK economy and thus the livelihood of ordinary Hong Kong citizen. I suspect many people are sincere about the abstract idea of that statement, but they haven’t given any thought about what it means in more practical, realistic terms. And at the same time, many other people are not being sincere at all, and merely use the statement as a cover for racism.
- I do think criticism against CCP is okay, but I am not seeing a lot of fair criticism. I see a lot of double standards, where CCP is criticized for something while other parties are not. I see a lot of criticism that’s based on either false info, or info with dubious evidence. Such dubious evidence is often accepted without question, even though when it comes to other countries people would’ve probably done a better job scrutinizing.
Imagine that everybody thinks Netherlands is a country of drug addicts and prostitutes, and that that is what people talk about all the time. I wouldn’t be happy about that either.
- A lot of criticism isn’t per se wrong, but does assume that western values are universally correct. The more I learn about history, the more I cast doubt on this. Western values arose under very specific circumstances. Mainland China has a very different history, so the values there are different. The insistence on criticizing the CCP from the viewpoint of western values, comes over to me as imposing one’s values on others. Some mainland Chinese values arose specifically because of western imperialism, so this imposition even comes over as hypocritical or tone-deaf at times.
- So much emphasis on criticism, but I think what we need is more emphasis on solutions. I mean: many problems in China aren't going to be solved by overthrowing the CCP (if that is at all possible). This isn't as simple as kicking out the bad guys and things will be better. For better or worse, and for all its faults, the CCP is still the only government that truly advances mainland Chinese people's interests; no other government will do it for them, and any post-CCP government will not necessarily be better than CCP. Rather than focusing on criticism, I think we need to focus on mutual understanding and finding ways to cooperate. The CCP will not feel inclined to accept western values as long as they believe that they are being treated as inferior instead of as equals, and that those values are a thinly veiled excuse for overthrowing them and for ignoring the west's own problems.
I hope this clears things up. If you have more questions or thoughts, I would be happy to engage.