Hacker News Reader

Comment by joncrane | Hacker News Reader

My, how the pendulum swings!

I'm firmly in the camp of hating open office plans. My first job out of college making $50k per year in Washington DC, I had my own office.

It was all downhill from there.

In my career (I'm 45 now), there is literally a direct negative correlation between how much money I make and the quality of my office surroundings (specifically, the privacy and quiet all go down as my pay goes up).

I used to rail against it but I figured that's how the world works and always insisted on enough money to make up for the crappy office space.

I would be THRILLED if COVID reverses this (IMO) awful trend.

However, I do not have my hopes up.

View on HN

Open floor plans make concentration nearly impossible. Headphones and music is a must. It's also deeply unsettling to have people walking behind you 24/7. I think human evolution makes you not happy about this.

A coworker of mine left for a company where all employees have offices and according to him the gain in productivity was wild.

Having intentional collaborative workspaces, while maintaining private space for concentration or just personal retreat, is optimal. Forced collaboration is suboptimal.

Private officies are perfect for collaboration. There is no need to schedule meeting rooms. Just talk in your office.

Yes. I worked at a company for many years that was offices (mostly for managers) and cubicles. Collaboration was fine. Culture was open door unless you specifically didn't want to be disturbed/overheard for some reason. I imagine it's different at other places but private office shouldn't be equated to private office with always shut door.

This.

Scheduling meetings is a pain despite good Outlook tools, because they're always booked. A decent sized office would make this a non issue.

You shouldn't have to retreat to personal space. You should retreat to collaborative space. If personal privacy is not the default, then social expectations will have you rarely able to take advantage of it.

We do not have enough collaborative spaces to accommodate this, so we end up having crucial conversations and impromptu problem-solving meetings out in open space, wrecking the productivity of everyone else who is trying to meet a deadline.

I want to concentrate for at least 3/4 of my working time, but 2006 was the last time I had semi-private space for it.

I see it less as forced collaboration and more as a vehicle for high frequency interruption, which is a core tool of what I call panic or chaos management.

At most places I've been, team management and inter-team cooperation are both so poor that it's pure chaos. Every day there's panic - necessary or otherwise - and the fastest way to put out the current fire is to to storm across the floor and presume to interrupt everyone who might help.

Open plan offices work to make this the norm rather than the exception. They're a cover for no improvement to organization or management.

There's also health effects. There is subconscious anxiety from being observed and from having someone walking behind you. There is stress from trying to listen--or not to listen--to other conversations. There is stress from needing to maintain a facade for management's panopticon. It all takes a toll on cube farm crops.

Cube farm is nowadays a premium. We are just sitting in rows. Like school class. No walls, nothing. Managers sit in corners, so they can observe others. Upper management has private offices. With increasing pay office quality drops dramatically.

Dilbert strips are now an utopia with proper cubicles. How ironic ...

If you would have asked me 15 years ago if having your own cubicle would be a positive, I'd have laughed at you. It's sad how this has turned out.

About 8 years ago I changed jobs and went from a big semi-open office space to my own cubicle in a small department of a smaller building. I was so happy about that, I had to take a picture and send it to some people.

The human element of some open office spaces is also (IMHO) a little dehumanizing when you're required to carry your headset and any personal effects from a locker to your desk in a plastic tub and then login to your phone.

Although if those who are predicting a lot more WFH (but with companies still maintaining some level of physical offices), I would expect hoteling to become much more common whatever the physical space looks like. If many/most people are only coming in a couple days a week, it doesn't make sense for employees to have a dedicated space in general.

Thankfully I've never had to do that. It sounds pretty awful. I spend 8 hours a day in my cube, so it is basically my home like it or not.

I hate them too.

When someone does an overhaul and introduces role-based areas, the library (where you really are allowed to tell people to shut up) are immediately more popular than the few stand-up desks on the floor.

At one place I worked (big bus. w/ offices all over) my floor was full of fake alphas who were always talking to their laptops on video conferencing. I'd take the internal stairs up a floor where it was crickets and productivity bliss.

And I'm guilty of being the annoying person in the area (ok, one of the annoying people). Sorry everyone! I've learnt and promise not to be that guy again.

I'm not a fan of open office either, but then what's the point of having an office if employees are isolated and it's the same as working from home anyway.

Had an office with wrap around white board for my first developer job. I don't think I have ever absolutely crushed that much work since -- up until COVID. Working from my home office has been a wake up call. I like the office, chatting with people over breaks, building personal relationships, and I genuinely love interacting face-to-face with almost all my coworkers, but the drop in productivity due to the open office is immense. Would love to stay home after this since I know no company in a tech hub can afford offices for everyone.

I'm older than you and have run the entire gamut of office types. Single office, shared office, cubicles, half cubicles and open office.

Open office is my favorite by far. I'm a programmer and I'm not easily distracted and I find the environment a lot more social and enjoyable.

My least favorite was the shared office and cubicle. I found offices isolating, but at least you had privacy unless you shared your office. Cubicles were the worst of both worlds, which is a lack of privacy but you're still isolated.

> Open office is my favorite by far. I'm a programmer and I'm not easily distracted and I find the environment a lot more social and enjoyable....My least favorite was the shared office and cubicle. I found offices isolating, but at least you had privacy unless you shared your office. Cubicles were the worst of both worlds, which is a lack of privacy but you're still isolated.

There's the key right there. You're an extrovert.

Half the world isn't. And there's more introverts in tech. Your isolation is our happy solitude in getting shit done.

I'm not an extrovert. I'm definitely an introvert. But it doesn't mean I eschew all social activities.

You might want to reevaluate that. The words you're using to describe open offices and cubicles is definitely more of an extrovert trend. Very few are 100% one or the other, but the words (isolating, social, enjoyable) show extrovert.

Introverts can like being social and feel isolated from others. Not liking being social is something else.

You're going to evaluate my introvert/extrovert status based on two sentences? That's a delusional level of confidence you have in yourself. Also, you need to reevaluate your definitions of what introvert and extrovert mean, not all introverts are like you. Educate yourself before making widesweeping assumptions.

Well, yes. Words mean something. And no need in insulting or demeaning me in taking you at your word.

And I'm sorry for triggering you by calling you an extrovert.

I guess the saying stands true that the pay is respectable when the company's not.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com