Xcode 4 released | Hacker News Reader

Xcode 4 released

developer.apple.com

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"Wow, I'd love to develop for Mac! Let's see...where's Xcode..."

Dev navigates to the App Store.

"Ah! Here we are. Now I can make splendid apps for Mac and iOS like I've always want--"

He notices the $5 fee...jaw drops, eyes bug out.

"What is THIS?! A price for DEV TOOLS?! Confound it all, now I can't develop for the platforms I love!"

Buries head in hands, then looks to the heavens.

"JOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBS!!!"

End scene.

Working title of this play: "The Story of a Developer That Doesn't Exist."

How much do Microsoft's dev tools cost? (honest question)

My experience: they're free, but they cost a piece of your sanity. [0]

I wanted to set up Visual Studio Express on my Windows partition just so I could screw around with Silverlight. Two hours, about 12 forum threads, and three beers later, I vowed to never develop anything for Microsoft.

[0] http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-ed...

The SDKs are free, and ship with compilers. The Express GUI development environments are free, but limited.

There are third party tools like sharpdevelop which are generally better than the express tools.

There are free (Express) versions of Visual Studio but they lack those awesome Visual Studio Professional features AND Visual Studio Professional costs 1500 bucks.

What about someone who isn't in love with the platform, just curious?

Act two:

-----

"Hey, everyone's always talking about iOS...maybe I should check out it's dev tools."

Dev navigates to the App Store.

"Ah! Here we are. Now I can find out more about making apps for--"

He notices the $5 fee...jaw drops, eyes bug out.

"What is THIS?! $5?! Now I can't have my BURNT STARBUCKS TOMORROW!"

Buries head in hands, then looks to the heavens.

"JOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBS!!!"

End scene.

-----

On a serious note, I was a curious developer. Couldn't grab Xcode 4 because I didn't have Snow Leopard, so I actually went and paid $29 so I could try developing for iOS. Very happy with my purchase.

Okay, you've got me.

I hope there is some core distribution of basic build tools available for free in the future though, the first step to building anything on OSX is "go download/install xcode". The community could work around it since all these build tools are freely available, but it's nice to have an official bundle available from upstream.

I think people are forgetting that it's $5 AND the additional hassle of entering your credit card information and so on. The cost could be a dime and Apple would still be raising a non-trivial barrier to entry.

Further, it seems like a pretty big "fuck you" to anyone under 18 and/or living in a country, like Brazil, where you can't pay for it.

Everyone under 18 can buy a iTunes gift card. (It’s a hassle but it’s not impossible.)

What credit card info? You're telling me someone would want to develop for Apple after owning a Mac but having never bought something from iTunes before?

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but it seems like a lot of others aren't.

This is only five dollars folks. You get a hell of a lot of value for that five bucks. I don't think Apple will even recoup their development and distribution costs with that. I'm guessing the main reason for the price is to deter every man and his dog from downloading it - anyone who cares can part with five bucks.

Won't Apple recoup their costs through selling a platform strengthened by everything Xcode-using developers create?

Won't developers recoup their costs by selling software through a platform strengthened by Apple's massive infrastructure and marketing?

It is a puzzle. At one time, developer tools were priced to extract money from developers. Then, when third-party free tools came along, platform owners realized that market share and lock-in was much more valuable and started giving their tools away for free. But now Apple is neither charging to recoup development costs nor giving tools away. It is strange that the cost should be so close to free yet not actually be free.

My working assumption is that Apple is charging to ensure that each developer must experience the App Store purchasing process at least once, thereby encouraging them to write apps for it.

But, if you pay for the Mac Developer Program, you can download it from the website. So either $5 or $99/year. But you need to pay $99/year to submit apps to the app store—at least iOS app store, I assume the same for Mac App Store. So developers don't have to experience the app store.

I think it is to deter everyone from installing XCode just because they can. That 4+ GB download isn't free on their side. It is just enough of a pain point to make sure the user is sure they want it, but not so bad that people have to save up for it.

Well, each time a single app sells on the app store, they get 30%. If we assume it costs $5 to host XCode, then if each developer averages 17 downloads, they'll make a few cents off of each one. If we assume that one developer in a thousand gets 17,000 downloads, they'll still make money.

The argument for covering their hosting costs seems hollow to me, even if we assume it actually costs $5.

Does it matter in the slightest if every man and his dog does download this set of tools?

The more people (or dogs) who download this framework, the greater the potential revenue for Apple.

I understand that it is "only $5". But Apple makes $billions, so why the heck do they need to make $5 off someone who may want to code for their platform?

It's not about making money. It's about detering those that have no interest in downloading 4-5GB in software they'll never use. There are LOADS of people out there that do that. I know many people like this. The kind that download every Ubuntu release in ISO format, yet run Windows.

Anyone that is revenue potential for Apple is going to pay. Actually, many of them are already paying $99/year anyway, so they get it gratis.

And you're mistaken about the assumption that anyone who downloads this, at any price, represents greater potential revenue. Charging a tiny nominal sum for something of value is common practice to deter time-wasters. Not just in the software industry, either. There is a psychological effect as well - if you pay for something, you are more likely to ascribe value to it, and more likely to investment time into it.

What's the bet that this comes free on the Lion disc, anyway.

It sure does look like very petty nickel and diming. My guess is they put a nominal price so they keep out the undesirable riff-raff.

It's great software, and definitely worth $5, but one thing concerns me.

Most open source software I use requires Xcode to be installed in order to use GCC and other build tools.

Does this mean you'll have to purchase Xcode 4 in order to (easily) install these tools from now on?

Xcode is free. I'm not sure where you're getting $5 from. You do need to create an account to access the download page, but again that is free too.

Edit Ok, when I clicked through the link and downloaded it, I got no $$ warnings. Then as I read some other comments, I see that Apple has changed this. I didn't see anything about needing to pay because I have the paid dev account.

Xcode 4 is not free. I have a free developer account which I use to download previous version and where you see the download page, it refers me to the app store.

For those not registered as iOS or Mac developers (which is $99 a year), it's a $5 download from the App Store: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/xcode/id422352214?mt=12&l...

I totally agree that software is worth paying for, especially at 5$, but what is it that rubs the wrong way about this? It's so irritating. Developer tools should be free. Charge more for something else!

If I may quote PG: "They make such great stuff, but they're such assholes. Do I really want to support this company?"

This is only getting more and more true. Stop it Apple!

I want to point out Visual Studio (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/), but I don't know how it compares. The Express version is free, but the "Utlimate" version is almost $12,000. There are "Premium" and "Professional" below that. I don't know how the features of the various versions compare to XCode.

I couldn't do a feature by feature comparison but generally speaking if you're not in a team you can go pretty far on the express editions. The express edition of SQL Server is also good.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason they're charging for it is because they feel they're obligated to by accounting requirements. Same reason they charge for Facetime. I'd wager Xcode 4 will be included for free with Lion, just like Facetime will be.

I highly doubt it. This is not some part of the OS or something, this is a standalone product and it is still OK in the US to have products that are free. Also, they've been giving xcode away for free for a decade, long after this accounting practices thing came up.

Actually, they've been including Xcode with the OS and giving away minor updates for free. History of Xcode, every new major version was released with an OS and would not run on the previous versions of Mac OS X. See also: iPod Touch until recently. Major updates cost some nominal amount of money, minor updates are free.

Yeah, which I think invalidates your accounting hypothesis. If accounting is the reason for the cost then they would have already been charging for it.

No, because they were distributing it as part of the operating system, which they sold.

Why should dev tools be free? Adobe's whole business is selling dev tools. Should Adobe stop selling Flash Builder and instead sell Flash Player?

Dev tools should only be free when the platform owner is desperate for developers. This used to be true for Apple, but not any more!

Adobe sucks.

Well there's a limit to how many developer tools should be free.

If you're talking about the basic command line utilities and libraries that you use to build applications, then yes, they should be free.

If you're talking about a fully featured IDE with all the bells and whistles, stuff that can refactor code easily, has a decent built in build system. Then no, you shouldn't expect it to be free.

Same thing crossed my mind, then I remembered that I wouldn't really be getting much from the 3->4 upgrade since I don't use Xcode itself.

I'm guessing they'll something similar to what they typically do with iLife (and, more recently, FaceTime): Charge existing customers for upgrades, but offer it for free with new (operating?) systems.

Regardless, Xcode 3 is still available as a free download.

I just hope they keep Xcode 3 around. The idea of paying $5 for make and gcc is abhorrent.

Worth paying for if you're certain you need it, but it will turn away lots of curious hackers. I have a hard time seeing raising the barrier to development, even by $5, as anything but a horrible move.

I have paid a lot more than $5 for things I don’t need and I consider myself frugal.

The $5 certainly raise the barrier but that doesn’t mean that it’s not worth it for those who are merely curious.

If this ships with gcc or other GPL software, somebody will obtain the tools it legally, ask Apple for the sources to that GPL software so that he can build a copy of gcc and put it on a website.

If Apple does not distribute the sources (and probably also if they do) we will soon see a response from Richard Stallman.

Apple does distribute sources, though I'm unsure of how often:

http://opensource.apple.com/tarballs/gcc/

The http header's date for the newest tarball is:

    Last-Modified: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:39:59 GMT

One of the major changes for Xcode 4 is that Apple is moving from gcc to llvm as the primary compiler.

They still include gcc in the package as of now, but it is based off a now-old gcc version (4.2 series, back when it was GPLv2) for which they have already released their source changes and it is really only there so old code that expects gcc specific features can continue to be compiled... it is basically deprecated at this point.

Since when do you have to be a member of the ios or mac developer programs to download xcode? I'm pretty sure I've downloaded previous versions just using my apple account.

Since when do you get downvoted on hn for speaking the truth? Oh, yeah, always.

I actually laughed when I saw that happen. amazing.

Voting has always puzzling me here, but karma is not the pathway to haven.

It's not about the karma, it's about people attempting to silence those who simply speak the truth. HN fades one's comments more for each step below 0. I'm not sure how it works, but I assume eventually your posts fade into the background color.

The problem seems to have resolved itself.

All 62 days of always?

Your post and the parent's post were posted one minute apart. If you see a post that you think is unfairly downmodded, upmod it and hope others will be as fair as you are. That approach has worked well for me for some time.

Hell, Xcode was on the OS X install discs. You didn't even need to download it, unless you wanted the latest version. Not anymore, I guess?

True, and they sell those install discs for more than $5. Presumably the next OS update will include Xcode 4 on the discs.

You did, in fact, download previous versions of Xcode for free, but Xcode 4 has required a $99 developer account until today (Xcode 4 is so much better than Xcode 3 that I was happy to pay it).

If you are logged in and are trying to download but are getting an access denied error, go to http://developer.apple.com/membercenter and accept the new terms. You should now be able to download from http://developer.apple.com/xcode/

I also ran across this, and on the error page, neither of the links for Apple support worked. It sometimes amazes me that a company that's generally as polished as Apple can still suffer from bugs like this one.

If you're just learning iOS, you can still download 3.2.6 for free by logging into the Dev Center with a standard iTunes account.

If you just want to play around, I'd recommend that. https://developer.apple.com/devcenter/mac/index.action is where you'll find the download (unless they decide to pull that).

You can get the iOS SDKs without paying? I thought it was only 10.5 and 10.6 you could get without being in the iOS Developer Program.

You can get the (release) iOS SDK for free, but can only run your code in the simulator.

When you pony up $99, Apple will sign your code-signing certificate so that your code can run on unmodified devices, and they will also allow you to submit apps to the App Store.

I know it's not new, but I still get a kick every time I see "Zombie Detection" listed on the features page and I re-realize it's not a joke.

"Zombie Detection: Hard-to-find application errors and crashes can be trapped within Instruments when an application tries to access memory no longer available."

No longer available free for those without the $99 Mac or iOS developer membership.

It is, however, only $5 from the app store.

Wow! Apple is really doing some weird things lately. I don't like where this is heading. But when you think about the price and what you are getting it's unbeatable.

I would say 'free' beats it, even at $5. Still, it's gonna be worth it for the single window interface alone.

Even though $5 is pretty cheap. There is a lot of power in 'free' (As Dan Ariely would say), and I'm sure there will be some bad consequences for apple here, but not that many and maybe it's worth it for their new strategy for developers. What that strategy is, I have no clue.

Yeah sure free beats it. Most times. I mean sometimes people don't see the value when they are getting it for free. Example: Guy finds a bug in a free software and thinks 'what doesn't cost nothing can't be anything'. But these people are mostly end users not developers.

Long story short: I don't have a clue why Apple is selling XCode 4 BUT when I look at Microsoft you are getting a hell of a software for just 5 bucks. (Visual Studio costs 1500 bucks I think, to be fair there is also a Express (free) edition)

Anyway, I love the new XCode one window interface!

I'll pony up the $5 but I have to say, Apple sure is ignoring past lessons of the industry. Namely, those with free dev tools have little problem attracting developers.

Even MS gives away its Express Editions for VS. I'm a little surprised to see Apple move to a paid model, though $5 is very cheap, I admit.

I think it is either an accounting thing or they decided they wanted people to pay for the 4.28GB download and decided to charge their "standard low price".

You can still download XCode 3.2 free. Think of it as the equivalent of the Express Edition for VS.

A gobsmackingly weird comment considering that for the majority of the lifetime of the most popular application development platform on the planet, its development tools cost hundreds of dollars.

Then allow me to adjust his statement slightly:

Namely, those with free dev tools have little problem attracting good developers.

What does that even mean? I'm asking seriously. You're saying Windows didn't have a lot of good developers?

That's a very Windows-centric comment. The cases I am referring to are in regard to non-dominant platforms. Compare OS X, NetWare, Linux to the likes of OS/2, MacOS (8/9), Solaris.

During their dominant periods, dev tools on Solaris and OS9 cost money.

Yes, that is precisely my point.

Yeah, back when the original Mac dev kit was released you had to join the developer program for $1500/year. What you got was decent hardware discounts (for hardware that was much high priced than it is today), several loose leaf binders of documentation, and a big stack of floppies. IIRC, the original Mac compilers were designed to run on a Lisa (so toss another $10K in the pot).

As time went on, things got better. Codewarrior by Think appeared, documentation was distributed on CDROM, and the annual dev program dropped to $400.

The $99/yr, or the $4.99, is a pittance. Seriously.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the new accounting procedures (e.g. 99 cents for Face Time, charging for iTouch updates, etc)? Maybe it will be free to Lion users?

You're mistaken. Xcode 3 and 4 are still available with the $99/year dev memberships for iOS or Mac OS X.

I think you misread what he wrote.

Xcode 3 is free for anyone with a free developer account. Today, the newest version of Xcode was released, Xcode 4, and it is not available for free with a developer account, it is $4.99 in the Mac App Store. If you happen to be a member of the Mac Developer Program, or the iOS Developer program, both of which cost $99 per year, then it is included in your subscription and you may download it for free.

I have been using it since the first developer preview, and I have to say that is really a leap forward. Apple seems to have learned from good features in other IDEs. Still not perfect, but much better than version 3.

But it surprises me to see the final release this soon. The GM seed 2 still had some issues, especially with syntax coloring/code autocompletion, which is now tied do LLVM. I hope they addressed this in the proper way, since the last GM seed was just 5 days ago. When the syntax indexing broke, it rendered XCode totally unusable (I had to reinstall version 3 since I was not able to solve the problem in any way and I found a thread in the Apple forum where people where complaining about this issue).

EDIT: some grammar.

I wonder if they will package the toolchain sans IDE for free as a download. Otherwise in the future package managers on OS X (homebrew, macports, fink, etc) may have a $5 entry fee.

I really hope the toolchain is released for free.

Even if it is not, the various apps are open source, so I imagine someone will knock together a free downloadable toolchain.

It figures that this would come out just when I let the latest version download overnight for a new computer.

That having been said, I'm excited to give it a spin. I've heard a lot of great things about it.

Hah! My developer membership expired a few hours ago (ok they did give me 15 days' notice). So I have to spend $5 or wait a day for them to reactivate it. sigh

FYI, I was getting an error when trying to download (I'm a registered dev). Turns out I had to agree to their updated license agreement first.

In case anyone else runs into errors downloading.

P1?

I don't follow ...

The error page had a code, and I asking if that code was P1 for you too. I accepted the new license on behalf of my company and it went away, so it's a moot point now.

Now I'm baffled. I downloaded Xcode yesterday, and today I was going to start mac programming for the first time, and now Xcode is 5 dollars or join? Do I need to join now? I seem to have access already to their documentation so I'm completely baffled. I think I'll try development for all three, iphone, ipad and mac apps. I think you also need a license to develop iphone apps? Ugh, Help!

Am I going to lose access to this page soon? Or is there more I need?

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/

EDIT: found this

"Basically, $99 gets you access to beta software, 2 tech support incidents, and access to developers resources - videos and forums."

So I guess the docs will still be free at that link.

Also, you seem to be able to develop iphone apps and run on the simulator, but to transfer to a actual iphone, you need a type of license, which I assume is included in the ios developer program.

Wow, what a pleasant surprise. Didn't think it would be released before Lion.

Will there be a way for me to install the developer tools for the command line (a C compiler, the C library headers, linker, assembler, and debugger) without using the App Store?

I'm kind of wondering what drove this move to a paid app. Driving away pathological customers? Increasing app quality? Somehow tying every OS X and iOS app--for sale or otherwise--to an identity/credit card? If it's a signed app, they could in theory attach some signature to everything you build, even for Cydia or the like.

I wonder if the price is motivated by the cost of bandwidth. A free, multi-gigabyte Xcode that can be downloaded easily off the App Store would bring in many downloads from people with no use for it. Maybe the $5 price is just enough to cut back on the quantity demanded and impulse downloads.

Apple believes software is worth money.

I guess a lot of people here don't. Which I find odd.

It looks like Embarcadero's Delphi, even with that own debugger stuff. All in one.

Suppose I have 4 Macs but only 1 developer account ($99 per year). Can I download Xcode 4 for free on all 3 machines, or is there a limit on the number of Macs per developer account? Has anyone tried this?

Looks heavily inspired by Eclipse, and I mean that in a good way.

Yes, but Eclipse is still free.

And Eclipse still sucks.

Still less than Xcode.

So, never used Xcode for any length of time, then?

Well, they couldn't copy everything!

A white back, all the WebObjects devs transitioned from xcode to eclipse. Rumor has it that Apple uses IDEA for WebObjects development internally. I wonder if this change could allow WebObjects to move back to xcode ?

I can't dig anything up, does anyone know if there are officially documented ways to build extensions for xcode? Say, to support other languages?

Apple believes software is worth money.

I'm not sure why that surprises people. What does surprise me is that people here don't.

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