Why SARS-CoV-2 Bluetooth contact tracing apps are a tremendously stupid idea
raccoon.onyxbits.de
raccoon.onyxbits.de
What a ridiculous straw man argument. Nobody is saying this is a silver bullet. Nobody is saying it replaces social distancing. That's either disingenuous or it's based on a massive misunderstanding of the purpose here.
It is one weapon in an arsenal of several, and the goal is to keep using all of them at once because each one helps reduce R0. Contact tracing doesn't replace everything else. You keep doing as much social distancing as you can. You keep washing your hands. And you also do contact tracing.
> Day 6 [ ... ] Joe’s test results are back: positive. [ ... ] Potentially a few hundred people are going to have a really rotten day.
Yeah, well, that is the idea, isn't it? They were possibly exposed. Sometimes learning bad news means you have a bad day. What's the alternative, ignorance is bliss? You might also have a bad day if you get COVID-19 and give it to your grandmother and then she and half the people in her retirement home die.
this is NEVER the plan. why cant people get over that fact? Like home made masks, they're a small layer that helps to reduce the rapid spread. slow it down, let us control it a bit more.
Of course, because all computer scientists share the same opinion... not!
Some computer scientists are even aware of the limits of their knowledge and understanding and give answers like "it depends". There are tons of variables that play into how well any of these solutions work, and yes, there's a privacy trade-off. Just like with license plates, card payments, mobile phones and leaving your house. Or using Linux. Are you one of the 10 people using Linux on the Internet? Yeah, we know who you are ;-) Welcome to the real world, where people make compromises.
Also: do you really want to be the guy saying something doesn't work while others are currently trying to make it work?
We can make compromises on a covid-tracking app. Worst case scenario: fewer people install it and it's less effective—still better than not having it in the first place.
We can't make compromises on a voting system—worst case scenario: democracy is overthrown forever.
There is a BIG difference in the threat models here. The prople objecting to electronic voting recognize that a major breakthrough in computing security is needed before we get there. OTOH we van probably design a _reasonable_ covid app with acceptable compromises.
If you think that having your position tracker is unacceptable: great for you, stand up for your rights. Most people do have google maps and its tracking installed, and don't give a crap _because it lets them see traffic_. I think the tradeoff here is definitely better.
On the cost issue, the obvious solution is to make testing free and easy, and to provide a financial incentive to get tested quickly after the app alerts them.
No, you can't. The virus spreads exponentially and the app is suppose to keep up. In other words, you get an exponential number of alarms.
> On the cost issue, the obvious solution is to make testing free and easy
Cost is not the limiting factor. Equipment, reagents and time is. We could have easily beaten the pandemic by now if simply going from door to door and taking a smear test was an option.
if everyone has the app, you won't have an exponential growth.
This one’s easy. Bob commits a crime. Police think there’s an accomplice. So, they use a contract tracing system to identify and start investigating Bob’s direct and second-order “contacts”.
Note - this is independent of the actual implementation, which does seem fairly secure against such uses. Still, I worry that given the public nature of the “infected” list, and that phones automatically add themselves to the list, there are some statistic correlations which could be made.
to be able to read the ids from contact tracing apps, they need to capture the phones and decrypt them, at which point there's probably more evidence to be found than some random ids
Having been in the same cell (potentially several square miles) as the murder victim is not quite the same as having been in tracing distance (4m²).
That's quite a strong argument/pretense, why law enforcement would immediately lobby to get the system changed in their favor. Don't you agree?
the way the contact tracing framework ACTUALLY works makes it doesn't really make it useful to them.
they could lobby to change it
they can lobby with or without the framework being implemented
that information is a lot more sensitive and a lot more useful to law enforcement. most people don't even know how much your location is being tracked.
the contact tracing framework by comparison, isn't really very useful for anything other that just that...contact tracing
If "identify" means to discover the identity of, I don't see how law enforcement can do that under the Google/Apple system.
Law enforcement can get Bob's phone. And it will have a list of all the pseudonymous ids it collected. They can pull that data, but what do they do with it? The ids aren't IMEI or phone number or anything. And there is no central database of them.
If you had the contact's phone, then you could get data off both phones and confirm whether they had been nearby. But if you're confirming a link between Bob's phone and someone else's phone, it means you already discovered the identify of the contact through other means.
It would be possible to build a central database of these ids through dragnet surveillance, but since they are stored locally only, that would require putting malware onto the entire population's phone to upload the ids somewhere.
* you need a key from a doctor to be able to mark yourself as positive.
* when you get a notification that you came into contact with someone positive, that's it....nothing else happens. it's up to you to go get tested (possibly with a priority because of the app)
* you are giving up 0% privacy by using contact tracing
Also, people can't troll using the app, you'll need a key to be able to mark yourself as infected
I think giving up a significant amount of privacy for technology that’s “not perfect” is a pretty dangerous slippery slope.
i've gone into detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23053624
Yes, you need a key and the article explains why that's the case and why you don't want one.
Joe the hacker What if Joe stayed home the first day (did not get infected), got hold of Jane’s phone and decides to swat her for fun?
// What does that have to do with anything?
Joe, the slacker What if Joe was not a neighbor of Jane, but one of her students, desperate to meet a deadline. Could he buy himself an extension by faking an infection?
// not really sure what this has to do with the tracing app...you can't fake an infection on the app, you have to get tested
Joe, the movie buff What if Joe had invited Suzie to the movies and turned his phone off before entering the cinema hall?
// who the fuck turns off their phone in a movie theatre?
Joe, the deceived Plot twist: Joe just caught the flu. Same symptons, different pathogen. Should he wait for test results (or be tested at all) before hitting the alarm?
// Again, you can only tell your app that you are infected with a key that you get after you test positive.
Joe, the unprepared Joe is single. What if he runs out of food while quarantined? Will he sneak out, leaving his phone at home?
// not sure why he's leaving his phone at home? who does that? even if it does happen, it will be rare.
Joe, the kindergarten teacher What if someone had the idea to reopen kindergarten, thinking the availability of Bluetooth contact tracing renders social distancing unnecessary?
// people want to open kindergartens because 'MERICA...not sure how this app will change things
Jane, the hypochondriac What if Jane had an unrelated symptom, quarantined herself without a test and thinks, she gained immunity afterwards.
// what does this have to do with the contact tracing app?
Jane, the gym instructor How many contacts would Jane’s phone log, if she left it in the locker room?
// I don't think most people leave their phones in the locker room. Even if they do, they will have contacts...other people that are in the gym at the same time.
John, the secret agent Are there countries that would benefit from keeping other countries in lockdown? If so, what could be more effective than interlinking as many people as possible, then sending a fake alarm?
// ugh...sure...I guess...if they're bored? and they get a key from a doctor
101010, the software bug Is it possible that a piece of software, especially one, that is based on a bad idea and coded in a hurry, might malfunction?
// pretty much everything around us runs on software...yes, there might be bugs, they get fixed
Just focus on inventing vaccine for couple hours a day then hit the pub.