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Geez, you're really off base on a lot of these comments. But to start somewhere:

> $1,200 in tax from 4,000 digital nomads is...$5,000,000. Thailand's economy generates $500,000,000,000 a year.

How are you only measuring direct tax income? They're spending foreign earned income on Airbnbs, hostels, bars, restaurants, likely multiples more than the average local, to the point that many successful businesses in Southeast Asia would cease to exist without a steady stream of these people.

> want to optimize for people who want to stay long term, adopt their values, become part of the social fabric

These countries don't want these people as permanent residents. As other posters pointed out, part of the unspoken contract is that they're leaving at some point. They come, they spend, and they leave before they get old and sick. If they were really taking more in services than they spent into GDP, the visa situations would change very quickly.

> What's more, the arguments all have a whiff of colonialism to them.

Please go travel to an immigration office in a third world country and see if you feel like you're exercising your white privilege. Officials in these countries tolerate travelers to the point that they're making out economically, but know they are in control. There's no subservience.

> there are effectively zero digital nomads who aren't white men

Sounds like you need to get involved in different social circles. I've seen the split to be about 50/50 gender-wise.

Mostly agree (see sister comment).

> Please go travel to an immigration office in a third world country and see if you feel like you're exercising your white privilege. Officials in these countries tolerate travelers to the point that they're making out economically, but know they are in control. There's no subservience.

I disagree strongly with this one statement. White privilege is definitely a thing. I have been a white tourist in many countries, and “travelling while white” simplifies plenty of things dramatically, and you can get away with things that a normal local cannot. However, I would guess 95% of that is due to the assumption made by locals that white === tourist === wealthy. The simple ability to fly into some countries immediately shows you are relatively very wealthy compared to the locals. I have also got away with plenty of shit as a English speaking tourist in “white” countries (euro and US), so colour isn’t the only thing. I do try to be generally respectful when I am a guest in other countries. Also I’m not American, which helps a lot as they seem to have a bad reputation most places.... Tourist often gets you the same privileges: I’ve seen white and non-white tourists in NZ get away with batshit crazy shit!

> might want to optimize for people who want to stay long term, adopt their values, become part of the social fabric...

Why would they want that? Perhaps the best part about Westerners, and why they get privileged treatment at the borders, is that they reliably leave.

>Unsurprisingly, countries (just like neighborhoods that crack down on AirBNB) might want to optimize for people who want to stay long term, adopt their values, become part of the social fabric...not just maximize marginal income from people who will never even try to learn the language and don't have a single local friend.

agreed... and there certainly are visa paths for people willing to participate in this sort of optimisation, the Korean visa I hold being a good example.

>What's more, the arguments all have a whiff of colonialism to them.

As do the blithe statements about "<country> is so CHEAP." That's always a bit cringe.

>I wouldn't expect the benefit to be significantly positive.

I was in Canggu in feb and it was full of digital nomad types and pretty prosperous. I just looked it up the other day and the nomads/tourists are gone due to covid and the locals are broke and often have no food. I sent some money to a soup kitchen operation to help feed a few who used to have decent jobs. They were definately better off before.

I would summarise your points as “I don’t like tourists, so I will make arguments against digital nomads” (which you summarise with your last sentence which is flamebait IMHO).

> $1,200 in tax from 4,000 digital nomads is...$5,000,000.

The export income from nomads spending money earned elsewhere is the total amount they spend less the imports they cost: it is certainly not just the VAT. USD10000 x 4000 is 40 million of export income - that is actually a significant number that politicians would chase after (well, they would here in NZ).

> Thailand's economy generates $500,000,000,000 a year.

Thailand’s export income is ~215 billion (2017), not 500.

> The expat contribution is a tiny, minuscule drop in the bucket.

Irrelevant: you could say about every small export business, so why not close them all?

Economically, look at the marginal benefit of adding one digital nomad, and decide whether the benefits (export income, but also positive externalities) outweigh the costs (negative externalities like social costs of having “bad” foreigners, or “colonialism” etcetera).

The marginal export income from a digital nomad is say USD10000 per annum. That is economically great, so long as the social costs are not too high.

Note that I’m from NZ and I definitely think it would be economically worthwhile to have high income digital nomads come here even if they pay zero income tax (see my cousin comment for that analysis).

Fundamentally: Thailand accepts foreign cockwomble tourists, so I can see little reason not to accept cockwomble “digital nomads” as well.

Edit: I actually empathise with your sentiments: New Zealand gets a lot of tourists (1 in 7 jobs are directly in the tourist industry), and for a long time we allowed foreigners to buy property, so I have seen some of the social damage they do. Albeit the damage from tourists is much less than Thailand from what I have personally seen. Although NZ is more of a “white” country, we still have mixed feeling towards wealthy US people e.g. Theil bought himself a passport here. NZ is more egalitarian than the US, but still has more wealth inequality than the scandy countries (on average most Maori are hit particularly hard).

Edit 2: It’s only really a legal difference between (a) a person that works at home then travels to spend money as a tourist, and (b) a person that works as a digital nomad while a tourist. The distinction is arbitrary. Countries can make whatever rules they like, but if you want tourists, you want digital nomads. NZ gets plenty of backpacker tourists that spend fuck all per day and we welcome them.

> Thailand accepts foreign cockwomble tourists, so I can see little reason not to accept cockwomble “digital nomads” as well

As I mentioned, I live in a South East Asian country and have for many years. There is a difference between tourists and people staying long-term and working illegally on repeated tourist visas.

Fundamentally, though, it isn't up to you or me. Those countries have their laws. They made their decisions. They don't want that marginal money. It isn't up to a bunch of white foreigners to tell them they made the wrong decision and laws don't apply to them.

Both Thailand and Vietnam have recently (in the past 6-12 months) changed their visa system to try to get rid of these illegal workers.

I think there are two main parts to this thread:

1. My summary: it’s illegal to be a digital nomad on a tourist visa. My response: illegal doesn’t mean the law is sensible. You make no argument that it is sensible. We all accept the laws given to us. I’ve argued there is very little difference between a tourist and a digital nomad (within the limits pointed out). “It’s illegal therefore bad” is not a very compelling argument in any country.

2. My summary: Digital nomads don’t pay taxes and are not paying their way. My response: I have pointed out many ways that it surely makes economic sense to have foreign earners in a country even if they are on tourist visas.

Also, repeatedly bringing up “white” in your comments is borderline behaviour IMHO, and doesn’t do you any favours.

Getting a VISA to work in NZ means quite a bit of paperwork but it's still a lot easier than Australia. Originally, I wanted to do my internship in Australia but didn't get a Visa but the friendly Kiwis let me in. I had a blast in NZ and love the country.