Is most of the 12% just market speculation that the virus issue will pass without a long-term earnings hit?
1. People keep saying about the market being up recently, but skip the part about it still being down about 10% since the start of the year.
2. S&P is heavily weighted towards the strongest companies. Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and Google account for 20% of S&P market cap. Most of those companies have been helped by the pandemic, or at least not hurt nearly as bad as smaller companies.
3. The market is always very forward looking. It is essentially betting that things are as bad as they'll get. I don't know if I personally necessarily agree, but if you look at countries starting to open up it's not an unreasonable bet.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_recenttren...
It is no harder to inflate the dollar than any other currency. Print enough of them, and the their price will go down. It's no different from any other commodity.
But it is simply not possible to keep pumping currency into a shrinking economy without producing inflation. Sooner or later the law of supply and demand will catch up with you. The only question is whether it will happen before or after November.
For everyone who will respond "oh but CPI has a housing component": https://slate.com/business/2014/02/housing-inflation-the-cpi...
But that is NOT what is happening at the moment. What is happening at the moment is almost the exact opposite: money is being injected mostly at the top in order to prop up asset values, with a little bit coming in to the bottom via the $1200 relief checks, and the middle via PPP.
If you increase the reserves, you are forcing the interest rate down, so you are making credit more cheaper (until it arrives zero and can't go further down).
For inflation to appear you need borrowers to who the banks think is good business to lend, and that spend that borrowed money in the economy. That it's not going to happen in a depression, when nobody wants to invest and the banks are scared to lend.
What is necessary is a decisive fiscal policy. That would increase the central bank balance sheet also, but what would cause some inflation would be the spending in the economy, not the number in the balance sheet.
So, down 10% from the previous bubble.
> 2. S&P is heavily weighted towards the strongest companies
Good point. Dow is also up almost as much though.
> 3. The market is always very forward looking.
I may be cynical, but I see perhaps 2 to 3 years to regain the jobs we are losing, to see the employment rate return to earlier levels. That's years of depressed spending, and all the other woes of society from high unemployment.
So the market is looking to, what, 2025 or something?
Sorry to pick on you, I still just don't get it.
Well, another point not mentioned is, where else are you going to park your money? Interest rates globally are basically <= 0, real estate may be a dicey proposition for many years to come, bond yields are garbage, so... stock market. And considering so many companies are selling at a discount (regardless of whether or not you think that’s the case), dumping money in the stock market is a pretty good bet right now.
Long-term these problems should work themselves out and real estate (particularly in hot coastal metros) should start going up again, but 2020-21 is going to be rough.
Sure. People are basically betting that stock prices are cheap right now, and if they hold onto them for a few years they'll be back to where they were.
Look at the 2008 recession. If you bought then you'd be doing very well.
They're basically betting that the worst has already been priced-in. In a sense, they're probably betting that we won't get a totally calamitous re-opening of the shutdown, or a totally calamitous fall and winter next year. But, in any case, most people adhere to the idea that stock prices always go up eventually, and therefore they buy accordingly.
We're about to hit bedrock, I suspect.
The dow is a subset of large companies in the S&P.
Interest rates are negative or near zero, so bonds have the risk of losing value as interest rates rise, as the Fed needs to fight inflation. They also have no real upside, since interest rates are so low.
The Fed has agreed to print unlimited money to prop up businesses that basically don't exist, so having a bunch of cash is not safe, since the Fed is printing so much more of it.
So grossly overvalued stocks may be the best thing now.
And as always the stock market isn't anywhere near a holistic view of the economy, it just gets over used because it's a convenient constantly updating number that can get slapped beside any news cast or announcement.
I would also add a #4 to your list that people often miss. There is risk and there is uncertainty (think unknown unknowns). The market hates uncertainty because it is so hard to price. Risk though can be priced. This is often why the market will go up with numbers that look really bad when they come in. They are no longer uncertain.
The downside for those companies will be the regulators at DOJ. I have no doubt they will survive this pandemic in even better shape than before. The question then is if the government will work to break them up.
Obvious examples would be splitting YouTube from Google, splitting Instagram and WhatsApp from Facebook and forcing Amazon to pick a side (own the marketplace or be a seller).
In a mathematical sense, the relationship isn't as much between the absolute level of the economy and prices, it is the tendency of the economy and the prices. You should look at the first (maybe second?) differentials.
Furthermore, values like GDP are inherently lagging. They show data that has happened months ago. There's almost no new information content in that number. Yes the number is bad, but everyone knew it's going to be bad. It sounds like (judging by the market action) that it wasn't worse than consensus.
Now, all the above is viewed through a lens of efficient markets. Reality is again more complex. As it has been pointed out, the price is not just driven by expectations about the economy or stocks, it is very much driven by central bank and government action. Easy money distorts prices. When Tesla which makes a puny 400k cars a year and has just about stopped being loss making is priced higher than VW which makes >6 million cars a year and made $17 billion, something is off. Let's put that into context, Tesla shares have priced in decades of non-stop geometric (20% YoY) sales growth to justify the _present_day_ valuation.
Don't think for a moment that traders don't know this. It's absolutely a game of musical chairs and they know it. Everyone, and I repeat, even the most boring, backwater pension fund board knows that this is a bubble. Everyone is participating and hopes that when the music stops, they'll have already made some safe haven stockpile to weather the storm.
"Sales of monitors increased by 73 percent compared to last year, PCs were up 53 percent, printers were up by 61 percent, and microphones were up by a massive 147 percent. Chromebook sales are also reportedly seeing triple-digit sales increases, which makes sense given how popular they are in classrooms.
Underpinning all this tech is a 70 percent increase in the sale of networking equipment. Although not detailed in Baker’s tweets, we’ve also seen a shortage of webcams, leading to skyrocketing prices."
It does look like some businesses besides medical equipment manufacturers have benefited. I'd be shocked if other things like sewing machines haven't seen huge growth in sales, also.
I want to add emphasis on (2). The effects are not spread out uniformly across all businesses. The hard hit businesses including restaurants, bars, and hair and nail salons have seen almost all of their business evaporate. You're not going to find the corner nail salon in the S&P 500.
A related assumption is also that government bonds will be a less attractive alternative place for investors to park their money.
The employees of these businesses also consume products from large cap companies. Who is going to buy things if they’re out of work?
I'm not without hope, but I fear we're going to see a lot of otherwise great businesses (breweries, bakers, barbers, spas, bars, restaurants, etc) go under and not get replaced by businesses of the same caliber anytime soon. If my barber closes I'll keep cutting my own hair. Same with my favorite local bakeries, restaurants, breweries, etc. I certainly won't start eating Applebee's microwave dinners and sugarritas just because they're the only joint in town.
I've diverted a significant portion of my savings due to this pandemic towards my retirement, but that actually has a small deleterious effect on my local economy as it is not strongly exposed to greater market forces as I'm reducing the volatility of money in my locus. I'm sure that I am not be the only one making choices like this.
It's also at the same level as one year ago. The economic situation, and outlook, is surely worse than one year ago? What has improved is the Fed inclination to make it true that stonks can only go up.
April is in Q2.
A key detail from the Alphabet earnings: there appeared to be different performance trajectories for the brand and direct response components of their advertising. Direct response continued to have substantial year-on-year growth throughout the entire quarter — can be explained by brands now directly reaching people at home under quarantine. Brand advertising growth accelerated in the first 2 months of the quarter, but began to experience a headwind in mid-March. Snap's earnings call appeared to include the same observation, from Evan Spiegel: "In the short-term, we are shifting sales resources and pulling forward some investments in direct response to better serve the advertisers who are trying to reach our audience during this time…".
Additionally, Alphabet obviously also makes its money through Google Cloud Platform, whose compute usage will continue to pick up as more and more people consume online content at home. The net argument is that, even in Q2, Alphabet might come out looking stable because it is not as exposed to the downsides of COVID as, say, Twitter or Facebook.
THAT is what I mean when I say "we'll see".
At the moment, the stock prices of health care are up +5%, consumer staples +6.5%, and information technology +8.5%. Energy is down -50%, consumer discretionary -27%, and financials -22%. Due to this, the composition of the S&P500 has dramatically changed, most of its underlying capital is now in higher priced assets in the former list, rather than the lower priced assets in the latter list. Because the S&P500 is a capitalization-weighted index, the total market value reflects this.
Honestly this is all just a giant advertisement for investing in index funds.
And the only thing that can explain where the stocks are now is that the Fed has pushed 2 trillions of liquidity into the market in matter of weeks, which is just unprecendented (the previous QE were much more gradual) and that lifted all asset classes.
But at one point stock prices will need to get back in line with earnings. I don't really hear anyone talking about v-shaped recovery anymore.
That's not entirely true, the composition of the S&P500 has pretty dramatically changed in the last few months[1].
If you look at the linked chart most sectors are down — energy is -50%, consumer discretionary is -27%, financials are -22%. However, a few sectors are up — healthcare is +5%, consumer staples +6.5%, information technology is +8.5%.
So with shelter-in-place and quarantine, it makes sense that the world's demand for oil and travel is at all time lows, and the stock prices reflect this. Instead, the demand is now almost entirely online, on the internet. Nearly every IT sector company is surging.
Even real-estate is down, as expected (fewer moves happening, less commercial leasing), but it appears to have a high variance[2]. Why is that? There are actually a few real estate companies on the S&P that are doing really well: $SBAC (operates wireless infrastructure), $EQIX (specializes in datacenters), $AMT (wireless and broadcast communications infrastructure), and $CCI (shared communications infrastructure).
So, many sectors of the economy are down, as are most companies. The current pandemic has pushed more capital to businesses which operate online. So the reason why the market cap of the S&P500 hasn't changed dramatically is because the distribution of the money underlying it has. The S&P500 is a capitalization-weighted index.
> But at one point stock prices will need to get back in line with earnings. I don't really hear anyone talking about v-shaped recovery anymore.
This week a lot of tech companies are reporting their earnings. Alphabet announced a 13% increase in revenue. If other tech, communication infrastructure, consumer staples, and personal health companies report similar earnings, then this whole thesis will be validated: the S&P500's current market value can largely be attributed to a flight-to-quality, where the "quality" is pandemic-proof stocks.
That's super interesting and makes a lot of sense. However, could you elaborate a bit further? Suppose we have an S&P 5, if the top 5 companies remain the same, but they on average do worse, we'd see the S&P 5 go down. You seem to imply, if I understand correctly, that the S&P 5 is not down as much because 1 company did really well and stayed, 4 that did poorly left and got replaced by 4 companies that did really well, too. Thereby the S&P 5 changed its composition.
And that makes some sense. However, that would mean that if you had an all-world or all-us stock indexes, which did not exclude any companies dropping out of a top 100 or top 500 or whatever, would have to see a large drop.
And I'm not really seeing that. These stock indices track roughly the same shapes as the S&P500, with perhaps few percentage off, but nothing substantial.
No that's not what's happening. Think of S&P 500 index as a basket of stocks. What does that basket look like? If I buy one "unit" of this basket, does it include 500 shares of stock, across the 500 companies? NO. The distribution of the basket is weighted, and it's weighted by market capitalization. So if all stocks were worth the same, you would have a unit amount of every single stock. But if, say, 5 companies do really well and 5 companies do really poorly, 1 "unit" of the S&P500 basket will actually include more of the "really well" stocks, and less of the "really poorly" stocks. The capital is automatically reallocated based on the market capitalization. Because of this, the market value of the S&P500 has stayed relatively stable.
> And that makes some sense. However, that would mean that if you had an all-world or all-us stock indexes, which did not exclude any companies dropping out of a top 100 or top 500 or whatever, would have to see a large drop.
Again, that's only true if this index is naive enough to not apply any sort of weighting. Most indexes in the world are weighted indexes, in fact we are generally instructed that indexes that do not apply any sort of weighting are bad indexes.
The market doesn't need to reflect the reality when you have an excess of cheap cash on the market.
The market incorporates news quickly, such as that there is a pandemic and it is going to have bad effects. Then it essentially forgets about it. I suspect most of the 12% is a response to government actions to control the pandemic and to the recent news that it is coming under control. You will see another drop if relaxing controls leads to another covid spike, and when economic effects appear on corporate financial reports, and when long term job losses are reported. Those are perfectly foreseeable, but in the meantime the market will likely go up as the memory of why they went down in the first place fades.
I thought I'd look up the performance of various indexes for the past month (as of the time I looked them up):
* S&P 500: +15.2%
* Dow Jones Industrial Average: +14.1%
* Nasdaq Composite Index: +17.9%
* Russell 2000: +21.7%
* Russel 3000: +16.0%
* Wilshire 5000: +16.3%
I then looked at the YTD, and didn't bother comparing them because they all essentially looked identical to one another.
Note that the DJIA and NDQ are mostly contained within the S&P are they are highly correllated. Weighting aside (I'm not actually sure what differencs their might be), the S&P is contained in R3k and W5000, but not R2k.
So no, I don't think the idea that Apple and Facebook are doing well (thus keeping hte S&P numbers inflated) holds weight. In fact, the Russell 2000 does not include the top 1000 companies (like the Russell 3000) and shows the highest return for the past month.
Rather, it seems like all of these indices are correlated. It reminds me of the Hillary Clinton autoregression of prediction markets during the 2016 election: immune to new information.
The easiest, and best, comparison for this is to look at the S&P 500 vs an S&P 500 equal weighted index (where all stocks are weighted equality, instead of weighted based on market cap). Over 3 months (i.e. just before the market peaked) the equal weighted index is down almost 15%, while the market cap weighted index is down just over 10%. This is clear evidence the larger companies are significantly outperforming the smaller ones.
This is despite the economic slow down as B2C companies losing 20-100% of their customers and B2B companies lose their B2C customers who no longer have income.
If you're interested in preserving purchasing power 15 years from now, would you rather hold dollars or things today?
As a value investor, all of my theses were blown out of the water by the unprecedented Fed intervention. It is an environment in which the fundamentals are uncertain. I'm standing pat and waiting for things to make sense before moving again.
The trailing (!) S&P P/E is greater than 20 right now. The Fed is supporting prices above their historical mean/median of 15. It makes zero sense, from a financial standpoint, unless the market is pricing in substantial inflation.
Pretty much this. The Fed is backstopping losses. Betting against them post-2008 is a tough position to be in.
It's especially galling because the people pushing for these nigh-Stalinist levels of fed intervention and central planning (look how much support oddly favoured industries like manufacturing and coal get) are also posturing as champions of the Free Market. It's like we can't make any progress because nobody in charge is willing to argue in good faith.
2. Fed helped and did what they are supposed to, which is good for everyone.
3. Market is forward looking and it should be, otherwise it would be dumb. In other words corona will pass, it is not the end of the world and if stocks went too deep, potential earnings from stocks within 5-10 years down the line would be huge, so anyone looking at that timeframe would be buying at discount.
High p/e does not mean things are overvalued. It means whoever buys into market estimates strong future potential. Now knowing that you can start to argue whether they are over or under estimating.
Good for everyone. Much better for asset holders in a relative sense. Populism will continue to rise.
No, it's just pricing in low returns across all asset classes (to simplify, low interest rates) - assets are priced by excess returns not absolute.
There's nothing unreasonable about a P/E over historical norms if you think interest rates will continue to stay well below historical norms.
It is paradoxical that a sputtering economy can make equities worth more cheeseburgers, rather than fewer, but I see the logic. At some point, given the choice between a low-yielding equity and a cheeseburger, I'd rather have the cheeseburger.
For sure. People are not factoring in the long-term interest rate here - they should look at the risk-free T-bill rates in the 1980s and how equities performed against them, and what we're looking at as well.
Now a month later, my initial instincts don't seem so wrong anymore: My portfolio is doing fine... All I missed out on was a bunch of theoretical day trading gains.
(Too bad the things that really matter, like my friends that run local businesses, and everyone's mental health, haven't fared as well)
https://howmuch.net/articles/price-changes-in-usa-in-past-20...
If the dollar gets less valuable due to the government printing cash (or buying bonds or issuing loans they are expected to later write off), then things denominated in dollars increase, even if the real value remains unchanged.
It's hard to tell if the dollar is weakening, because most other currencies are in the exact same position.
Expected inflation can be calculated as the difference between a Treasury and a TIPS of the same tenor - say 5 years.
Treasury yields: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/i...
TIPS: https://www.wsj.com/market-data/bonds/tips
So 5 years out, the expected inflation is .37 - (-.418) = .788%; pretty low. In other words, the market doesn't expect all this money printing to translate into general inflation (as measured by the CPI).
Personally I would be dollar-cost averaging into equities.
More important than anything though is that the market right now is absolutely rigged. It's not just irrational and forward looking, it is completely rigged. Central banks all over the world are directly propping up the market up. The market has never been more of a ponzi scheme for the rich than this exact moment in time.
Also, the S&P 500 is made up of mostly large companies, many of which could benefit long term from the virus. Sure in the short term there will be a revenue hit, but in the long term if their smaller competitors can't survive that hit and they can, they will become more dominant in the future. As far as I know, small business indexes have not recovered much.
The stock market is not trading in baseball cards.
It's mostly companies that do well in any market or have a habit of surviving massive market disruptions. Sort by founded date. Almost all of them are 2000 or older.
As an investor: Very happy with my "QQQ" (NASDAQ-100 ETF) investment, but my more diverse retirement portfolio is nowhere near as good. I have recently been buying hard hit stocks that I think will survive over the long term: Disney, Marriott..
As an employee: well, the trick is to remain employed.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&t...
Investing in Amazon is almost as profitable as a 3x leveraged parity risk bet on QQQ. I get what you are saying, "buy when people are fearful", but do you really think it will be more profitable than betting on the top 6 tech stocks?
I guess I don't believe in the statistical basis of the risk calculations (bell curve is an invalid model for sure for stocks), so only one stock is way riskier than you would think and tech only is already exposing you to some kinds of systemic risk.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/a-visual-history-of-the-lar...
https://howmuch.net/articles/100-years-of-americas-top-10-co...
QQQ would be a hedge on "big" but not necessarily just these current big.
This may also help explain why many people are terrified of the wealthy getting less wealthy: it'll cause a massive market correction as the demand for investment vehicles decreases to a more reasonable level.
A significant number of S&P 500 investors (roughly 40%) hold their investments in retirement accounts. These people are not going to sell unless forced to because they lost their jobs. If you're looking for a huge drop in the S&P 500, then keep an eye out on laws that allow for penalty-free withdraws from retirement accounts and reports that Americas are taking money out of their retirement accounts to live.
Also, there are plenty of people betting on the market going down.
https://www.fedweek.com/issue-briefs/covid-19-stimulus-bill-...
The S&P 500 was up 29% last year. It's now back to the level of October last year - when there was no pandemic or economic crisis. So you could say that the market is remarkably blasé about the current situation.
Wait 'til the music starts and there's a scramble for seats.
You meant 'stops'.
The 17 min documentary from Netflix might be interesting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFkWDdmXG8
So the real value of stocks is lower when adjusted for true inflation, but everyone claims inflation is minuscule / nonexistent so we can pretend that printing trillions of dollars and handing it to banks is having no effect.
Can't post this enough these days. TLDR is that the stock market is forward looking. It goes up or down based on whether conditions are better or worse than EXPECTED. If reality is in line with expectations then nothing happens. If it's better than expected stocks go up, if it's worse than expected stocks go down. The current shitty economy has already been priced in as far as can be known.
Plus there is the expectation that once a vaccine is developed/distributed it'll be the roaring 2020s as everything recovers fully, which I largely agree with. So if you're looking at record profits less than 2 years out, makes for a pretty rosy outlook.
That of course is assuming there aren't any particularly economically devastating effects from the oil price wars/demand drop, educational lapses, hurricanes/wild fires on top of corona-virus leading to a renewed spike during evacuations, and any other manner of things that can go wrong. That's where I'm generally making the opposite bet, there's just too many unknowns and plausible disasters that can happen, and if even one of them comes true things get a lot worse quickly. But that's pure speculation/conservatism on my part.
A lot of businesses are cutting back because people can't go out and do what they'd normally do legally. So when governments start easing restrictions, people [stockholders] are probably more optimistic because the situation seems more tractable. It's a lot more predictable than 2008 when people were talking about the collapse of fundamental financial institutions and systems involved in monetary supply because of their underlying structural composition.
I do think there's some disconnects in interpreting the stock market, but it seems to me investors are just seeing restrictions being eased, daily COVID case counts on a downward trajectory, etc. They're reinvesting in markets they see a path of recovery in, early.
What's less certain to me is if in say, July, this all gets worse again with overrun hospitals, etc. in a second wave. Then markets might really take a nosedive.
I don't think any of the market growth from this month reflects actual economic growth, most just optimism or perhaps reined-in pessimism.
The word 'recession' is essentially meaningless without knowing the impetus for it.
The 'outsourcing of Jobs to China' is a huge, permanent, secular shift that may affect stocks one way or another, but the 'coronavirus' is something I think business believes we will recover from quickly - for the most part.
Tim Cooke told Trump he thinks it will be a 'v-shaped recovery'.
But remember that this recession was 'self imposed' in the sense that we ordered businesses to shut down. We can open them again just as quickly. Obviously that won't the entirely the case but I think this is the sentiment.
When a new CEO takes over a business, he might 'write off' a bunch of crap. Even though the company loses money that quarter, analysts see it as a 'positive sign' because the company is getting rid of dead weight on their balance sheet. So like a 'one time charge' type thing.
I think markets are seeing corona as a 'one time charge'.
This isn't about what people want to do. It's about what they will be able to afford to do.
Point being, the markets are seing corona as a 'flash crash' that will take some time, maybe 18 months to re-adjust, but it won't really hold things back long run.
If someone hits a vaccine the markets will go on a tear.
also, even if there is a decrease in earnings, interest rates are also lower, making stocks more attractive.
The market is still down from overall highs. We're not as far down as we were since we don't think it's going to be as bad anymore as we had feared. For 500 large cap stocks listed on US stock exchanges, perhaps about 12% better.
Also, in any recession situation, there's very high volatility. The days with highest stock gains tend to occur right before and during recessions. Even if there's a net downward trend, we'd expect things to be swinging all over the place as people keep overcompensating to the daily news
You wouldn’t bet the economy will be normal by the end of the year but you might bet others think it might.
It's going up because poor people are being forced back to work.
It's not that they're merely different, the modern stock market bears almost no relationship to "the economy". It's HFT algorithms all the way down.
This is the most optimistic market participants (bulls) buying at low prices and creating momentum that others follow.
Waiting for them at higher prices are the pessimists (bears) ready to sell into the rally.
Since there really hasn't been a capitulation, where everyone who would ever sell actually sold, it's likely the bears are still in control. I think some people are mistaking the extreme volatility as capitulation.
I have heard this before, but I am having trouble feeling this. How do you determine capitulation? We had several days where trading was halted for a time due to steep losses, and 3/16 was the second biggest percentage loss in history (for the Dow at least).
If that isn't capitulation, what is? Hitting the 20% circuit breaker a few days in a row? Only in 1987 has the market fallen more than 20% in a day.
One reason I think the market is rising is because "everyone who would ever sell actually sold". Therefore, only the eternal optimists are left; the pessimists are sitting this one out.
Perhaps the Fed intervened early enough to prevent a retest of the bottom, but I wouldn’t count on it.
People were saying that when the market jumped back above 2250. It's improbable we'll get that low again.