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Comment by scop | Hacker News Reader

The problem is that homeschooling and schooling in a classroom environment are two fundamentally different things. Tasking parents with mimicking a school environment and school schedule at home is a recipe for failure that teaches parents that they can’t teach their kids.

We have been homeschooling our eldest son for a year now and can never imagine going back to full time school. It has brought an immense amount of freedom and bonding to our family, not to mention an incredible amount of life experience for him with various activities (grocery shopping, museums, parks, hikes, etc). However, it was miserable to start primarily because we tried to mimic the exact school environment and schedule at home; a complete disaster! Schools are designed to teach a large amount of children; parents and homes are designed to teach individual children.

Would you use an entire cafeteria kitchen to cook lunch for your kids?

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You have to remember, the main purpose of school is to provide babysitting so all of the adults can work and keep the economy humming.

If you take a hard look at the time spent during school, you will see tons of filler. If you were _only_ going for schooling, you wouldn't need homeroom, lunch, PE (get your activity at home), and several subjects.

Not to mention, at home you can tailor the lessons to your kids, and you don't keep getting interrupted because some kids out of 30 in your classroom are being disruptive.

> you don't keep getting interrupted because some kids out of 30 in your classroom are being disruptive.

That depends on if you have multiple children and one starts flipping out.

Overall your point is pretty valid though

> the main purpose of school is to provide babysitting so all of the adults can work and keep the economy humming

This point has been especially proven by the fact that a lot of countries right now have reopened schools, but only for children whose parents can't supervise them at home because they have jobs that require them onsite still.

Then there's the rest of us, couples who both have to work 8hrs / day from home as well as look after 2 young children. It's really tough.

That just proves that school also provides babysitting. Which is a good and great thing, there should be more of that.

It does not proves that is the purpose of the school is babysitting. Moreover, schools are currently doing online education for kids at home. As flawed as it is and as it requires involvement of parent, it is organized by the school.

Is this a bad thing? Birth rates in developed countries are low as is. Take away the free day care and they will likely drop further.

> You have to remember, the main purpose of school is to provide babysitting so all of the adults can work and keep the economy humming.

I know this is a popular opinion but it’s ahistorical. Compulsory education was introduced in the late 1800s when about half of Americans still worked in agriculture, by far the largest sector of the economy at the time. Most families did not need childcare outside their home.

Today, school ends well before the professional workday does—pretty poor childcare.

The fact is that the main purpose of school is to educate kids, which is necessary to prepare them to live in a complex society. But, to teach kids you also have to care for them, hence the “fillers” like lunch and exercise.

Sadly, it’s true that for some kids, school is a major source of food and care in their lives. This is a failing of society, not of schools specifically.

> at home you can tailor the lessons to your kids, and you don't keep getting interrupted because some kids out of 30 in your classroom are being disruptive.

Which is why it’s legal to home school your kids if you want to, even when there is not a global pandemic. :-)

> Which is why it’s legal to home school your kids if you want to

This is far from universal btw.

> The fact is that the main purpose of school is to educate kids, which is necessary to prepare them to live in a complex society.

90% of secondary school is not necessary for living in modern society.

As long as you can do arithmetic, percentages and fractions and can read and write? You've got all you need really.

If you want particular jobs there may be extra requirements of course.

I couldn't disagree more. Modern democracies only work if large parts of the population are educated enough to hold informed opinions on matters of public policy, at least in the topics they care about. A lot of the problems we see today can fundamentally be attributed to the failure of reaching that goal and leaving room for demagogues, misinformation and outright lies to manipulate people into voting against their own interest and the common good.

As you point out, school fails horrifically at this goal.

It teaches a huge amount of stuff in a manner that does not help at all in forming opinions on public policy while failing to instil the most important basics, such as an understanding of sampling bias and appreciation for nation-level scale.

> and you don't keep getting interrupted because some kids out of 30 in your classroom are being disruptive.

and you will grow up unprepared to real life facts, such as people interrupting.

Precisely. We have homeschooled our three kids from the beginning and learned a lot. It only takes a few hours to go through the curriculum for three kids of different ages. It might take a bit longer if they are being difficult or going thru a new concept but rarely. After that we have various activities around the house / neighborhood they will participate in on their own. We would also have activities outside the house, piano lessons, P.E. classes with other homeschooled kids etc. They are kept fairly busy but not with the busy work you would typically find in public schools.

How did you manage 3 at once from the beginning?

We're debating what to do come August. We have a 5 year old entering Kindergarten. We live in a good school district, but we don't want to be part of an experiment as they figure out how to do online learning. Online learning for 5 year olds sounds disastrous too. So we've thought of trying home schooling.

The thing is, that 5 year old comes with twin 2 year olds. And the 5 year old has a huge attitude when dealing with us, but not teachers. She is way more productive when it comes to learning stuff in pre-school than with us because she flat out ignores us at least half the time. Can't imagine how my wife would manage that along with twin toddlers running around destroying everything.

Days are already frustrating as hell for her. A majority of the day is spent with at least one of them crying over something. Trying to stack learning on top of it sounds like a recipe for bad times.

Edit: especially with social distancing. Any other time we could lean on grandparents or local families in similar situations. Right now we can't. Not everyone can use extended family in normal times, much less the current problems we're facing.

That’s been the hardest part for us the last few weeks. The older 2 you can manage and get them to sit down to learn something, it’s the 1yo running around being distracting that makes it hard. 9, 6 and 1.5 = children with very different needs.

We had kids aged 2/5/7 at home while we were working in recent weeks; schools stayed open here in South Australia but many who could work remotely pulled their kids out as a precaution.

The 7yo is fine. 5yo is learning to read and can look after herself with some programs but needed help now and then - she also learns better with teachers. The 2yo disrupts everything unless you put her in front of an iPad for hours on end. The older two went back to school today and the 2yo back in childcare a couple of days a week. Depending on your work situations, I'd suggest leaning on formal schooling and get the 2yos in childcare a day a week to get a break for work or even just catching up around the house.

I think it'd be difficult to do the 5yo's homeschooling justice with 2yos helping.

I'm in this situation too; in VIC, Australia with 3/5/8 year olds. It's the 3yo who's hardest to deal with by an enormous amount. Given that the situation in Australia is about as under control as it's possible for it to be, I'm quite confident that schools will re-open within six months. And my gut feel is that we as a family would be better off (mentally, emotionally, and quite possibly even educationally) by treating this as a holiday from formal schooling rather than trying to make this work across such varied ages.

Schools are open here and I would've thought they'd open sooner than six months in Victoria?

The problem with treating it as a holiday holiday is that campgrounds are closed, restaurants and attractions are closed. So it's a home-bound holiday heading into winter. Otherwise I'd happily get the kids out of school again and drag them around AU or even just SA.

That said, you could just do 3-6 months of mucking around at home. Cooking, gardening, stay up late, informal learning, projects. I don't think kids would be catastrophically worse off from something like that.

In order to be successful with multiple children, you need to find a balance between self study (worksheet) and teaching. The younger the children, the more hands on you need to be. You need to figure out a good rotation so they are not all waiting for time with you.

It takes some adjustment because they may be used to having you full time. You can also start your 3 year old doing "school work". They can look at books, play with toys, watch leapfrog letter factory, color a page, etc.

The other thing to remember is that a 5 year old with attitude is always better than a 15 year old with an attitude. If you don't deal with it now, you are just going to push it off till they are older.

Note: we homeschool our 5 kids.

I was home educated from the age of 11, until the age of 18. I knew about 50 - 150 home educated children, among those I knew of only a couple that couldn't read or write.

The one, couldn't read or write until the age of 8 or 9, when his mum found books under his pillow he had decided to learn because he liked the subject matter, she left him alone and provided help when he asked, and within 7 months he could read and write and was completely and utterly fluent, moreso than some adults I have met who have a complete schooling.

The other, was not much of a reader, and was barely fluent, picked up reading and writing at around 9. He read lord of the rings at around the same age (10 or 11) and ripped through the series in a handful of months.

A lot of people treat learning as something you have to sit the child down to do, but that cannot be further from the truth were they removed from the exposure of school.

Personally for you I would look up Autonomous Home Education, and Unschooling. Children are extremely gifted at learning -- I mean, they're built to learn -- and if left to mostly their own devices (which is extremely terrifying at first), and occasional passive action (like say, buying interesting books, not communicating it, and leaving it on the shelf to be discovered -- brains are good at picking up when the environment changes C: ), they will find interest in learning and discovering subjects of their own accord.

(Do note, however, that many parents find that you have to give them a rest from learning and allow them to recover from the stress of school and discover their own rhythms! the average is 6 months, in my case because of a mathematics teacher that got me so stressed out I was unable to perform the act of adding up numbers in my head, it was 2 years!)

And even if they don't, a lot of people treat childhood as the absolute holy grail of learning -- if you don't understand it as a child you are doomed! However think about how much adults could learn if they decided they wanted to make a concrete effort, muted the distractions, and sat down for 2 hours total a week? They cannot because they find learning to be a chore! Ultimately your job as a parent is to make sure the adult that forms is capable and able to continue to learn. At best, schools fail disastrously at this, at worst, they actually hinder and set the resulting adult against learning forever more.

To clarify: By "Barely fluent" I mean to say that the second child mentioned was barely fluent at reading and writing, not that he was barely fluent in English as a whole.

I feel your pain. We have a 5 year old and twin 3 year olds. Our 5 year old will be entering K this fall too. Though, who knows what exactly that will look like. Right now the school which our 5 year old attends is having 45 min zoom calls with each pre-school class twice a week. It's not the same as having a whole day of activities and socializing but I respect what they have managed to do with the constraints that they are dealing with. Outside of that we've been reading to them a lot. But, there is a special force of nature weight that the twins somehow wield. And that is just tough. The way we've tried to spin that is to attempt to inspire them by feeding whatever their latent interests seem to be at the moment. And get that momentum in a productive direction. It does not always work.

I don't have any advice on homeschooling but I can sympathize with your kiddo situation (ours are 12, 10, 10). It can be rough with 3 that close in age, sometimes you just do what you need to so you can get through the day. You've probably already learned this but making loose plans with plenty of flexibility built in is key. At any one time 1 kid may be doing what they're supposed to (if you're lucky), 1 kid will be wandering off randomly, and 1 kid will be possessed by Satan. Hour two, they rotate. Good luck brother, you'll get through it and make sure to enjoy the crazy, chaotic, awesome times along the way cause before you know it, you'll be shipping them off to college.

You don't have to wait until a certain date to try — there is nothing magical about August or September that makes it a good time to start learning.

Do you have any concerns about your son’s social development? If so, how do you address these? Personally, I would be worried about accidentally isolating my kids and causing them to miss out on certain soft skills.

All of my friends who were homeschooled did boy scouts, church programs, etc. and almost all of them have better-than-average social skills. I wasn't homeschooled but, based on the outcomes I've seen, I'll be homeschooling my children at least until high school.

A potential confounding variable is that homeschooling doesn't happen without a good home environment with dedicated and involved parents, and that the student would be just as successful in a traditional schooling environment for those reasons alone.

It can happen without a good home environment, and then the results are very poor indeed.

Virtually all homeschooling families are extremely active in at least one social group.

Do you have any concerns about the social development of kids who go to traditional schools, where they interact solely with other kids close to their own age or teachers who are much older than them and whose interactions are rigid and artificial?

Sorry to sound snarky, but the idea that homeschool kids are somehow socially stunted is a myth that needs to die. If anything, it's the other way around. Homeschool kids are exposed to a much wider variety of social situations which develops a broad base of social skills and preparation for adult responsibility much more effectively than the stifling and artificial environment of public schools does.

> Homeschool kids are exposed to a much wider variety of social situations which develops a broad base of social skills and preparation for adult responsibility much more effectively than the stifling and artificial environment of public schools does.

You need to elaborate, it is not at all clear how homeschooling will lead to a kid being exposed to a much wider variety of social situations.

Homeschooling typically involves very little sitting at home, doing traditional schoolwork. As others have noted, and my extended family's experience supports, it only takes maybe 4 hours max to get through the basic curriculum--usually less--when all the ceremony of public school is removed. That frees up a ton of time for a combination of self-directed learning, engagement in extracurricular activities with other children of a variety of ages (e.g., may nephews have done karate for probably ten years now, started learning with older students and progressed to helping teach younger students) and regular "field trips" (e.g., when there isn't a lockdown in effect, my kids go to the aquarium at least once a month, and interact with the... zookeepers? fishkeepers?... there to ask questions about the animals, pet the rays, etc.), and navigating the world with their parents. Now, a parent can still isolate their kid from responsibility, by, e.g., taking them along on an errand to the bank and the grocery store and making them be quiet and Let The Adults Talk, but they don't have to, and those who choose to homeschool generally don't. Heck, my kids aren't even school-age yet, but I still let them hold the credit card, talk to cashier, stick the card in the chip reader, take it back out when it beeps, and grab the receipt. And since they are around the house with their parents, they also tend to get to know many of their parents friends, which is conducive to learning how to interact with adults, who are not your teachers, socially.

On top of all that, even when engaging in core curricular study, homeschool kids are usually doing so in mixed-age groups, according to subject ability level--especially if they are part of a co-op.

The variety of social situations in typical schools is narrow and artificial. Once you leave school, never again in your adult life will you be forced to endure such a stifling environment.

If a homeschooled child never leaves the house, then yeah I can see it being a problem. But if they are allowed to go out and experience the world with their parents then they learn social skills by interacting with people of all ages, but mostly with adults who (most importantly) are already socialized and therefore model proper behavior instead of the insanity that goes on in age-segregated classrooms.

But by primarily socialising with adults, they aren't as successful when it comes time for socialising with people their own age.

Real life socialising is done with adults who are probably not exactly the same age as you. The kind of interactions a homeschooled child will have are a much closer model of the kind of interactions everyone has post-school than what happens in school is.

That's not what the previous poster said. They were talking about socializing with people your own age, which is critically important. When I was 18 if I acted like a 40 year old I would have never made friends or found a girlfriend.

But relative age is not what makes the difference. Interacting with 20 year olds as a 20 year old is much more like interacting with 20 year olds as a 10 year old than it is like interacting with 10 year olds as a 10 year old.

Depends. Will you know the slang your 20 year old peers use if your main source of socialization is 30 year olds? Did you go through all the same cultural crazes and fads?

A shared culture is important, and each generation has their own touchstones.

That’s not what dating or friendships are like though, which are pretty damned important for happiness.

The difference is between peer relationship. Adult friend is not a peer and has different level of authority.

How's this at all different from traditionally schooled children? Nothing you said applies to homeschooled kids at all.

You're basically just saying "if your parents socialize you then you'd be socialized." Sure, but if your parents don't socialize you then at least you'd have a slight chance to pick it up at school, if you're also kept away from school then you're just completely fucked.

I'm speaking as someone whose parents didn't socialize me.

I'm an only child and had plenty of adult interactions outside of public school. If I was homeschooled I would have been miserable, even if I met people through sports and other activities.

This site is filled with introverted engineers -- not exactly a representative sample. 3.4% of kids are homeschooled, 64% of which are doing so in order to provide religious instruction.

Can't agree more!

And I have no reason to doubt you. Homeschooling definitely isn't for everyone... but that is not the same as saying that homeschooling is across-the-board inferior to public schooling. Public schooling also isn't for everyone.

Are you telling me that a homeschooled kid will get exposed to more social situations than one in a public school where every race, ethnicity, and social strata are represented?

Unless the homeschooling parents went out of their way to isolate their child, it seems like the amount of interaction with people of various ethnicities, social strata, etc. is going to depend more on the community than whether a child is homeschooled. There are plenty of public schools with very little diversity.

I'll argue the other way, even if the parents are social butterflies, they end up socializing with people who belong to the same income strata. I live is a HCOL suburb in the San Jose bay area, and even here, 20% of kids are from low-income families.All races and ethnicities are represented.

But they're all the same aged or very closely aged. Having genuine interactions with an non-authority-figure adults is important for children (and was how most of the world worked until the invention of modern schooling).

Learning from, and teaching, other kids at different stages and with different abilities too. Peer-teaching doesn't seem to happen much in schools.

Homeschooling today is very different than 20 years ago. Since it has become more mainstream, there are so many more activities and support groups. My kids have a better social lives with a more diverse set of people than any of our friends that send their kids to school. When their kids come home from school AND finish their homework, that is when they get a little bit of time to play with my kids.

You can cherry pick in both directions. Are you telling me that a kid at a socially homogeneous local school of kids all within the same age bracket will be exposed to more social situations that a homeschooled one who regularly deals with shopkeepers, tradesmen, and people of all ages and all walks of life?

I don't get it, do you think kids in public school do not interact with shopkeepers?

What does interaction with shopkeepers, tradesmen, and people of all ages and all walks of life have anything at all to do with homeschooling??? Kids can (and do) go to school and do all that too.

Is he running a home business or just being home schooled? Just to prove your point you're now resorting to daft arguments.

I don't think it's a myth so much as it really doesn't reflect the broad range of both possible and actual home schooling scenarios.

When home schooling is used as one aspect of minimizing broader social contact for your children, it can be an issue. But it's not the home schooling per se that is the problem, but the attempt to narrow their world. And I agree it's totally unfair to paint every home schooled child with that particular brush.

But they do exist, and where they exist, most would highly benefit from traditional schools if for no other reason than it breaks the bubble a bit.

Having know a bunch of people who were home schooled in various ways I think your claim of clear superiority of preparation for adult life is also a bit too strong. On the whole I'd say it's a bit of a wash.

Exactly. There are certainly socially-stunted homeschoolers. But in those case, it is not the homeschooling that is the problem.

> Sorry to sound snarky, but the idea that homeschool kids are somehow socially stunted is a myth that needs to die.

I'm sorry, but it's not a myth. It's something that can and does happen in many cases, depending pretty much entirely on the attitude of the parents. I was homeschooled. My religious parents viewed it as an opportunity to shelter me from the evils of the world. I now have social anxiety, difficulty relating to other people, an inability to make and keep friends, and several other mental health issues.

The majority of "homeschooled" students I knew (and know) were barely homeschooled - starting in middle school or high school, most of their classes were taught co-operatively by other homeschooling parents, or paid community college professors looking for some extra money. (I took several math and science classes this way.) Full homeschooling (where every single "class" from K-12 is done in the home) needs to be undertaken with extreme caution, if at all, especially when the kids get past grade school, and need to be hearing the ideas and input of peers as they relate to the things they are learning. The also need to be having social experiences with peers many times per week, which becomes very difficult even for dedicated parents.

    It's something that can and does happen in many cases, depending pretty much entirely on the attitude of the parents.

Or, in other words, it's not actually the homeschooling that is the problem. It's the attitudes of the parents. And it turns out that when you have cruddy parents, public-school outcomes aren't good either.

Well, yes, but it has the important difference that being in public school can hardly fail but to give you a certain minimum level of social skills and in most cases one or two friends at least. And on the other hand being homeschooled by bad parents can hardly fail to have a bad outcome for you.

Also, can you use ">" to offset quotes instead of four spaces? Because HN uses that for code, it's not readable for mobile users.

Hmm, plenty of people have an awful time in state schools. Parents who are so bad they leave their kids to do their own education sometimes inadvertently give them a great environment in which to grow (but it seems super-rare). I think you're more right on this second part than on the first.

> plenty of people have an awful time in state schools

For sure, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying there's a difference between the possible outcome of having an awful time and being so socially abnormal that you get panicky talking to the cashier at the Burger King and can't make any friends.

In my experience, the worst possible outcomes in each case tip the other direction: I have never heard of a homeschool kid committing suicide because they were so unprepared for Burger King, but public school kids commit suicide because of how incredibly awful their social experience is all the time.

The absolute worst-case, most socially-awkward homeschooler I ever met ended up just fine after a couple of years of college, which fully made up for any socialization deficiencies he may have suffered from being isolated from his public school peers.

There were multiple sever abuse cases children in families where kids were homeschooled to cover abuse. It happens.

https://hsinvisiblechildren.org

>Our preliminary research suggests that homeschooled children are at a greater risk of dying from child abuse than are traditionally schooled children.

https://coloradosun.com/2018/10/08/homeschool-child-abuse-co...

>In a 2014 study published in the Journal of Child & Adolescent Trauma, Knox seemed to confirm that. Examining cases of severe and fatal child abuse, Knox found that 47 percent of the young victims had been removed from school to be home schooled

This is the sort of thing that is really subject to selection bias.

Are social problems more prevalent amongst homeschooled kids, due to homeschooling?

We don't do education otherwise, we wanted to flexischool (UK) but the teachers vetoed it. However, we know quite a few families who homeschool and they have an incredible bunch of socially active, artistically skilled, intellectually capable kids. Socially, they seem to be ahead of other groups, to me, because (I contend) they get/got a lot of inter-age interaction. There's probably a lot of selection effects too.

My own kids seem, in contrast, to have gotten more out of clubs fitted in around schooling, as opposed to their socially fulfilling time seeming to be more co-terminous with educational experience.

One thing I'm concerned about with school is that up until 12yo the kids only regular day-time contact with men is the janitor ... it's a slightly orthogonal issue, but I guess in general "you can't pick your teachers" applies for most people and even in our pretty nice neighborhood a couple of the teachers have had lasting negative effects on our kids.

> Are social problems more prevalent amongst homeschooled kids, due to homeschooling?

My guess is yes, but I have no direct evidence of that. The thing I think I can say with certainty is that there's a long tail of parental effects on socialization for homeschooled kids. Very severely conservative or religious parents are very likely to have kids with these problems to a moderate or strong degree. And quite a few homeschooling parents in the United States are like this - you might very well be in a liberal or urban bubble if you don't see this in your local homeschooling community.

> My own kids seem, in contrast, to have gotten more out of clubs fitted in around schooling

I don't mean to sound like I'm totally opposed to homeschooling. I actually think it can be much better than public schools with the right parents, the right environment, the right amount of money, and so on. I'm not clear on exactly how old your kids are, but I would warn that I do think it's significantly harder to encourage the best social development once they become teenagers.

> a couple of the teachers

By "teachers" I assume this means you are hiring outside instructors or doing co-op classes with other homeschooling families where your kids and there kids are being taught at the same time. This is a very different kind of experience and not what I referred to as "full homeschooling" in another comment in this thread.

I can relate to your experience growing up homeschooled and dealing with social struggles as an adult. I don’t think homeschooling automatically leads to these issues, but I agree that there’s a risk and parents need to be mindful of the impact of their decisions.

I agree with everything you’re saying about social experiences. I think making sure kids have plenty of opportunities to interact with people outside of their immediate circle is super important. It’s just as doable with homeschooling as with traditional schooling but it requires more intentionality because it might not happen naturally in the same way.

On the other hand, I can understand the frustration that homeschooling parents feel when other people assume that homeschooling will cause their kids to grow up weird.

I’m also annoyed when a discussion about the pros and cons of choosing to homeschool one’s kids leads to people citing cases of child abuse (further down the thread; I’m not talking about any of your comments).

The fact that some parents homeschool as a cover for abuse isn’t relevant to my decision on whether or not homeschooling is a good path for my kids.

I plan to homeschool my kids. My parents did a decent job with me, but I can do much better with my kids (in part because of my experience with my parents’ choices).

If you’re home-schooled, then how do you make childhood friends? How do you meet that dreamy girl, that you remember after all these years, just because she did something nice for you once.

Most friendships are based on serendipity and closeness and repeated interactions.

While public schooling does have its drawbacks, and some bad bullying scenarios (we’ve all been there), it also does have some good things. And you meet a variety of other kids, that comes from different walks of life, that may positively (or negatively) influence your own life.

Sure, you can supplement your kid’s social activities with going to church, or karate, or ballet, or piano, or other extracurricular activities, but it’s not quite the same.

Church, for one, is too cohesive, and results in groupthink. And that’s if you really want your kid to worship a bible, instead of understanding science. The other extracurricular activities on the other hand, lacks cohesion, that you don’t build lifelong friendships through that.

The other thing is, home-schooling tends to shelter your kids. You need them to build the toughness and mental resilience, from peer competition with other kids at school, in order to face the real world.

Because in the real world, you now compete with other adults, and a lot more is at stake. And you tend to learn these lessons along the way, as you grow up.

    If you’re home-schooled, then how do you make childhood friends? How do you meet that dreamy girl, that you remember after all these years, just because she did something nice for you once.

You meet kids in your co-op. Or in your extracurricular activities (if you don't have access to non-school-related options like karate classes, dance classes, community sports leagues, etc., plenty of school systems still permit homeschooled kids to register for their extracurricular programs). Or by hanging out with your parents' friends kids. Or by playing with other kids in the neighborhood after school.

   While public schooling does have its drawbacks, and some bad bullying scenarios (we’ve all been there), it also does have some good things. And you meet a variety of other kids, that comes from different walks of life, that may positively (or negatively) influence your own life.

Yes, it does. And for some people, public school is the best option. One of my sisters, for example, has a mix of kids in public school, private school, and homeschooling, because each of them has different needs and different approaches to schooling have ended up working out better for each child. But the fact that each option has its strengths does not mean that homeschooling is deficient.

    Sure, you can supplement your kid’s social activities with going to church, or karate, or ballet, or piano, or other extracurricular activities, but it’s not quite the same.

Of course it's not the same. That's the whole point. But "not the same" does not mean "worse".

    Church, for one, is too cohesive, and results in groupthink.

Depends on your church.

    And that’s if you really want your kid to worship a bible, instead of understanding science.

Again, depends on your church. I grew up in a religious family, and made many friends through church, but I still got degrees in two scientific fields, as did several of my siblings, and I don't think you could accuse any of us of "worshiping a bible" or "not understanding science".

    The other extracurricular activities on the other hand, lacks cohesion, that you don’t build lifelong friendships through that.

You have no evidence for that. My nieces and nephews, and homeschoolers I know of my own generation, would say exactly the opposite.

   The other thing is, home-schooling tends to shelter your kids.

No. Homeschooling is sometimes used as a tool b people who want to shelter their kids to give them greater control. But it does not in and of itself result in excessive sheltering. Some of my niblings have online homeschool classes with kids from all over the country, with way more diversity than they would get in their local public schools.

> Some of my niblings have online homeschool classes with kids from all over the country, with way more diversity than they would get in their local public schools.

Is an online class with a diverse crowd a sufficient replacement for actually going out, interacting, and being next to people of various racial, ethnic, religious, and economic backgrounds?

I've spent half of my life on online communities. If I went out into the world thinking the average person I interact with online was the same as the average person outside, I'd be very stunned by the reality and very ill-equipped. The types of people I encounter on Hacker News and other communities/groups I participate in online, well, I've almost never encountered similar people outside.

    Is an online class with a diverse crowd a sufficient replacement for actually going out, interacting, and being next to people of various racial, ethnic, religious, and economic backgrounds?

Probably not, but like I said, that's not an option for them, so it's not a fair comparison. The local public schools would not provide significant interaction with or proximity to people or differing racial, ethnic, religious, or economic backgrounds. Is an online class better for that purpose than a public school classroom in Fairfax, Virginia? No, absolutely not. But they don't live in Fairfax, Virginia, or in New York, or in California, or anywhere else that's reasonably diverse.

I think you vastly underestimate the diversity and types of people you'd find even in monocultural small towns. Being born in a town of 1000 people and moving all around the world, it's pretty strange the way people tend to look down on some places. There's plenty of variety within people that you'll quickly become aware of when you sit down are and expected to deal with them.

Why do you think I underestimate the diversity of places where I or other members of my family have lived, where we have gone to school, and where most of my parents generation have been school teachers?

I know there is plenty of diversity in small monocultural towns. But it is of a qualitatively different type.

Online or offline communities beyond 20 people are garbage. Being in a tight knit community is more important than the mechanism that is used for communication. It's the same reason why urban environments are so lonely. You meet way too many people.

All I can say is there are several times in my life I’ve encountered a teen/adult that I instantly knew was homeschooled.

Personally, I don’t think the occasional shared class or meetup with their peers compares to 8 hours every day being around hundreds of different personalities. Sometimes it can be hell, but you learn a lot about social interaction.

All that said I live in an area where most people that homeschool do it for religious reasons, so that could definitely be skewing things.

It is likely that there are far more times in your life that you've encountered a teen/adult that actually was home schooled and you never knew.

- martial arts class gives (non-parent) teacher-student setting w/ same-age peers

- play groups gives play time w/ mixed-age kids

- piano lesson gives (non-parent) teacher-student setting

- living every day life has child interact with adults for various things (e.g. ask the cashier if they have X for you to buy)

- tight knit parish community gives very diverse age range (babies, toddlers, teens, seniors, etc) for both play, service, hikes, etc

- siblings close in age

Full disclosure, I was very skeptical of homeschooling to start and am myself a product of one of the best Bay Area private schools. I only chose to give homeschooling a try as I had a flexible remote-work situation and thus a year of not being tied to a school schedule seemed worth a shot. It has been a success beyond my imagination and my son is not only ahead of where I expected scholastically, but also socially.

How do you mix work and homeschooling? How many hours do you work / week, and what do your kids do during that time?

Cool. I'm wondering though, personally I've had STEM teachers and met experts that have inspired me to do what I do now. Have you introduced things like science/robotics clubs to him? If it's not a secret. I'm just very curious.

Thanks for your response, I'm glad to hear things are going well. Judging by your response, your son seems to be (relatively) young--do you have any plans to reintroduce him into the schooling system during his high school years, e.g. for college preparation?

Also, where I live, driving around to all those activities would add up to a lot of time. I assume you live in a more urban area where those things are in close proximity/within walking distance?

This is the most common question we homeschoolers receive.

1. Students and teachers are not always good role models and schools are not always a good environment for learning soft skills. Some schools are quite toxic. I'm sure many here can relate.

2. Who better to teach you social cues than your parents who love you and will be patient with you?

3. It depends on the child and the parents. Our oldest daughter is extremely introverted and was homeschooled yet has better social graces than her mother and I combined. Our middle daughter (extrovert) has a strong network of online/offline friends through various programs and activities. She will be starting a private school in the fall.

4. Homeschooled children get used to interacting with adults who are not in a school environment and tend to communicate in an adult like manner (IMHE).

5. The successful homeschoolers tend not to advertise it, yet they are everywhere. Unsuccessful home schoolers often become the subject click bait articles or books (ala Tara Westover's experience).

School for me was a horrible experience socially for me. I wish I'd been home schooled.

The assumption that parents love and treat their children well is a quite a big assumption by homeschooling advocates.

My mother is a teacher. She has become surrogate mother to so many kids because their home lives are trash.

1. Parents are not always good role models and homes are not always a good environment for learning soft skills. Some homes are quite toxic. I'm sure many here can relate.

The most toxic of toxic schools don't even begin to compare to the toxicity of my home life. I would rather be in school getting bullied by other kids then home getting told that I ruined my parents life and they wish I didn't exist.

Truthfully, the bullying by other kids didn't even bother me in the least because it was so mild compared to what my parents dished out non-stop.

Exactly! It's more difficult (for most) to become a teacher than it is to become a parent and I think we can agree the average teacher is better at their job then the average parent.

While homeschooling can work wonderfully in some places, it is exceedingly irresponsible to advocate for unregulated homeschooling while knowing the terrible home life some children have.

For what it's worth, among me and my siblings, the one with the best social skills, the widest circle of friends, and who is still most in contact with childhood friends is the one who was homeschooled.

No, that wasn't me. I certainly spent a lot more time interacting with other kids my age during weekdays, but quantity isn't quality.

I'd be curious to know if there's been any long-term research on this subject, but I'm not aware of anything.

There is no chance that a homeschooled kid is going to learn all the social, leadership skills that a kid who goes to a public/private school does. The diversity of people that you get to meet in a school, is pretty much impossible in a home school setting. What about the freedom to be away from your parents and run wild? I imagine a homeschooled kid always tagging along with his parents.

As if every kid that goes to public school learns social leadership skills (hint: the vast majority don't)... and as if a bunch of delinquent kids running wild without adult supervision is always a positive thing...

There are plenty of ways to intentionally foster and coach leadership skills without putting your kid into a public school, and there are plenty of ways to give your kids freedom without them running around and getting into trouble.

These things are in no way things that are strictly exclusive to the common public school experience. If anything, you are more likely to have success by being intentional with your approach in a homeschooled environment that is free from things like peer pressure and drugs and lack of supervision.

People are very opinionated about this topic, and I’m sure that’s because there’s not really an answer to “does homeschooling have negative impacts on social development?”, beyond “It depends.”

I’m saying this as an unschooler, who was entirely without a mandated curriculum from 2nd grade until adulthood.

A lot of it depends on the reasons for home schooling. My mum was just hippie-crunchy enough that when 6 year old me said I didn’t want to go to school, she just let me leave at the end of the year.

I’ve met incredibly awkward homeschoolers who were not in school due to religious parents. I’ve met families who just travel so much, it was easier on everybody to just homeschool their kids - these kids tend to be more socially developed than average IMO - May be because that lifestyle rewards kids for being outgoing. I’ve noticed many more trends, but there is ALWAYS an exception to the rule.

I should note that “successful” homeschooling does seem correlated with economic and social privilege; for me this was the case - I had the privilege of being raised in the greater Boston area, near enough public transport I could go into the city whenever I want. Personally, I can’t imagine raising kids in a rural environment where they can’t take bus anywhere, and don’t have easy access to other kids their own raise. But, of course, I know several people who were raised like that and are way more mature adults than most. I think this point is obvious, but traditional homeschooling also requires the privilege of having a parent who is not working, or the money to hire tutors (unschooling and co-op based homeschooling obviously has less of a dependency here).

School could easily be considered a negative social experience. Unnaturally spending 6+ hours/day with kids of the same age under loose social guidance. A home-schooler has his neighborhood and extra-curricular time which are more than sufficient, but also one huge advantage: the potential to spend time in the real world with authentic relationships with people of all ages.

I disagree based on my school at home experience with 2nd and 4th graders.

IMO the two big issues are teachers who have difficulty with the online model and more importantly parents or caregivers who cannot control their kids.

We’re lucky in that our teachers get it and are doing a college like schedule with weekly assignments and three days with 2 one hour live sessions with two days of office hours and recorded sessions.

It is a weird position at the moment too where you are home schooling but you know your kids will be returning to school and the schools are still setting work, so you are forced a bit into the 'school at home' thing. We're trying to get a balance - doing an hour or so of the set work each day and doing other more stealth educational stuff at other times. Unfortunately a lot of the staples of homeschooling such as museum trips (other than virtually) are obviously out at the moment!

Interesting (to me anyway) that (it seems?) you decided you wanted to home-school separately and before you decided how?

I suppose I just imagine most people have an idealised view of their child's education, and then decide they need to home-school to realise it. But perhaps that just wrong, I've no experience, first-hand or otherwise.

>>However, it was miserable to start primarily because we tried to mimic the exact school environment and schedule at home; a complete disaster

They had decided how, it just turned out they found a better way after giving it a try.

>I suppose I just imagine most people have an idealised view of their child's education, and then decide they need to home-school to realise it. But perhaps that just wrong, I've no experience, first-hand or otherwise.

They do, and they also have idealized views of their children. If you go into home education with a rigid plan of execution, you (and your children) are likely going to have a bad time.

Teaching is hard. Striking out on your own vector of pedagogy is a large risk that, if done well, can yield very large rewards...it can also be a disaster.

Just curious, how do you deal with socializing the kids?

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