Hacker News Reader

Comment by outime | Hacker News Reader

I came to the same conclusion after seeing all my family drinking at least 3 cups daily. Then all my friend, then me being 15 years old started.

About 13 years later I’ve quit cold turkey after having some anxiety problems and headaches. I did some research and read a book which is from the nineties and a bit outdated but holds up pretty good. It basically cured both problems (but withdrawal symptoms the first days were tough, I admit).

For many people it’s ok to drink coffee I guess, but consider that it can affect you and almost no doctor will look into coffee consumption when you pay them a visit to see what could be the reason of some of those ailments. Also I saved a good chunk of money.

So no, you don’t need coffee. You need to give your brain a break (sleep properly) if it asks for it, and you don’t need to drug yourself with substances to “focus” and go on with your life. If life isn’t exciting then you may want to change it.

I recommend reading r/decaf for some interesting testimonies.

View on HN

> If life isn’t exciting then you may want to change it.

I, like many people, need to exchange my time for a paycheck. During this time I often have to pay close attention to minute details in a text document, and think through implications of design proposals. As much as I enjoy it and feel very fortunate to have such a comfortable and mentally stimulating job, the fact is that it just isn't always going to be exciting. I imagine that dedicating myself to any worthwhile effort over a long period of time would result in many periods during which optimal excitement levels are not achieved.

I'm in the position to already know exactly what my life would be like without coffee, as I grew up Mormon and believed I was personally commanded to not drink coffee or tea by the creator and sustainer of the universe. The result was: I was sleepy at inopportune times. It didn't matter how much sleep I got, or how interested I was in the subject matter. I just got sleepy when I needed to sit still and pay close attention to things. It wasn't ever a huge deal, and I was able to work around it, but that's just how it was. I don't think my sleepiness was particularly unusual or extreme. I just think that humans aren't optimally evolved to sit in math lectures or review intricate documents on a daily schedule.

As soon as I started drinking coffee, there was noticeable improvement. No more than 2 cups per workday. One in the morning, another in the afternoon. My sleepiness all but went away entirely. Ever since then I've been slightly more productive. Like I said, it's not a huge thing, but it's an obvious improvement. If I gave it up as part of some righteous attempt to remove my excitement crutches or whatever, the long term result would simply be: I'd be sleepy more often.

I’ve had a similar experience, although with one notable exception: within a week after I began microdosing a certain psychedelic, I spontaneously decided to quit caffeine cold turkey and had no qualms about it. Like some inner voice just said “why the hell do you have to push the accelerator so hard?” and there was no sensible answer so I quit. Unfortunately, that was short-lived because I don’t have a steady microdose supply so now I’ve reverted to my old ways.

Unfortunately for us, the delivery vehicle for caffeine can taste great and the process to remove the caffeine can leave a substandard result.

I’d totally use other nootropics in managed doses if I could do so long term with no serious side effects.

Offices are also way too cold, I will just sit there drinking hot water if I don't want the caffeine...

I don't find coffee to have much of a warming effect. My solution to cold offices is three shirts and wrist warmers.

It might go beyond the temperature of the liquid, though: caffeine is a vasoconstrictor, meaning it restricts blood flow to your extremities, meaning you'd be better at retaining your core temperature. (That said, you should also be "feeling" colder in your hands and feet.)

(This is the opposite effect of alcohol, which is a vasodilator: it makes you feel warm by filling your extremities and outer layers with blood, but at the cost of actually losing core temperature. Hence drunk people easily freezing to death in winter.)

Caffeine is generally thought of as a vasodilator. It's a bit more complex than that, but it definitely doesn't restrict blood flow to your extremities.

I've actually quit coffee a few times for 6+ month periods. One thing you'll notice, or at least I did, coffee just didn't taste that good, and your mind quickly connects the caffeine rush it's going to get. Even trying to drink decalf wasn't a worthwhile endeavor (even though there's still a tiny bit of caffeine in it). I imagine, it's a variation of a junkie not loving to put the needle in their arms, but anticipating their high.

Note: I don't drink coffee "drinks" like mochas, lattes, frappachinos, etc. just drink black coffee, without sugar and milk .

I'm not sure, but depending on how micro your dose was, it might have had a similar wakeful effect. Anecdotally and based on experiences of people I've spoken to, psilocybin tends to keep people awake. Some even say they couldn't possibly fall asleep for anywhere from 6 to 12 hours after taking a dose intended for psychedelic effects. Perhaps in micro doses it has the same effect but more mildly.

LSD also absolutely keeps you awake.

This reminds me how Australia solved its beetle problem with a toad problem. One day, they were like, why are we letting all these beetles eat our sugar cane. Lets bring in toads to eat the beetles.

That sounds like a toad problem in the making.

Well, we can probably bring in foxes or something.

> I, like many people, need to exchange my time for a paycheck. During this time I often have to pay close attention to minute details in a text document, and think through implications of design proposals.

Anecdotally, I can concentrate and focus a LOT better when I get a plenty of sleep and exercise and don’t drink any coffee at all for at least a few days beforehand.

I do love the flavour of coffee though so I still drink it, but I try to keep my intake low.

> The result was: I was sleepy at inopportune times.

I’m certainly no expert and definitely don’t know your specific circumstances, but on the surface this looks like a sleep hygiene or even diet issue.

> One in the morning, another in the afternoon.

I don’t know what age you are but I used to do this in my twenties and never had any problems sleeping, but in my thirties a coffee in the afternoon really messed with my sleep, although it took a few visits to the doctor to realise. I now very rarely drink coffee after about 1300 and I sleep a lot better. Basically, if you’re young, you can get away with it but be careful. If you’re not young then... maybe your body handles it differently, lucky.

Interesting. I never drank coffee in my twenties, and only started in my thirties. I now realize that I would have had a better time during undergrad, grad school, and part of my career had I drank coffee in my twenties as well.

> I can concentrate and focus a LOT better when I get a plenty of sleep and exercise and don’t drink any coffee at all for at least a few days beforehand.

Confirmed. I've been off for a few months now. Getting a good night's sleep is the key.

I'll second that. Growing up, I saw my father drinking lots of coffee every day, and complaining about his "addiction". This simply registered as a bad thing in my mind, so I avoided coffee at all costs until I was about 30. Even now, I still have a "moral" repulsion towards coffee, if you wish. Most non-working days, I don't touch coffee. So, I was able to get through a PhD without caffeine. But, man, how many times was I sleepy. The worse was being sleepy at the wheel. How many times did I not started dozing for a few seconds while driving (never got into an accident though). And no, I was not sleep deprived.

There are people, like me, who are sleepy at times, despite not skimping on their sleep.

I will note though, that for the last 6 weeks I did not drink any coffee, with all the work-from-home thing. I drink only tea nowadays.

Tea has caffine, too. Any reason you switched to tea? And what has been your experience, so far?

Curious, do you prefer the CTC tea [0] or whole-leaf / fannings?

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush,_tear,_curl

> Any reason you switched to tea

It's irrational for me. I simply don't associate tea with "wrong". I also know that tea has much less caffeine than coffee.

The experience so far was good. The only unpleasant thing is that I get nausea from simple tea, so I need to use cream and a sweetener, and sometimes even with that I still get nausea.

Long term I would like to be able to ditch caffeine completely. But it's not really on my top 10 todo list.

> So no, you don’t need coffee. You need to give your brain a break (sleep properly) if it asks for it, and you don’t need to drug yourself with substances to “focus” and go on with your life.

I'd suggest that the reason so many people drink so much coffee is that giving their brain a break by getting plenty of sleep and R&R is just not feasible.

Take people with small children, for one. Unless you're very lucky, you won't be getting regular quality sleep for 5+ years after having your first child. If you have more than one, then extend this period as necessary.

People don't drink 3+ cups of coffee a day to be their best self living their best life. They drink that much coffee to function at all when they have no other option.

Nah, I drunk 3 cups of coffee before I had kids and I slept a lot too. Also, when you are sleep deprived, coffee dont do all that much.

>People don't drink 3+ cups of coffee a day to be their best self living their best life. They drink that much coffee to function at all when they have no other option.

They maybe something is deeply wrong with out current system.

I drink 3+ cups of coffee because I enjoy the taste and the centuries of history behind the ritual.

This constant drive to be some sort of scientific Puritan, to the exclusion of anything else, is really tiresome.

Why is it tiresome for people to experiment with substance abstinence? How is that affecting you?

Well, to be clear, I was reacting to the specific statement that people only drink three coffees because they have some problem in their life. If you want to cut down on your coffee use, have at it, but do so without casting aspersion onto those who think otherwise.

Otherwise, to me it’s tiresome when any sort of substance is critiqued because it doesn’t fit the standard sober societal narrative, especially because it’s assumed that people are incapable of making decisions for themselves. It is a sort of creeping, subtle Puritanism and is usually totally arbitrary; you’ll see the same people gleefully talk about marijuana yet call tobacco users dumb. These things have costs and benefits and a mature society should be able to rationally discuss them, rather than act like a heavy-handed nanny. As an American living in Europe, this seems to be less of a problem in somewhere like France or Italy that has a tradition of wine cultivation. America seems to always skew to the extremes of over-indulgence or prohibition.

I simply don’t agree with the idea that everything with a supposedly negative health effect is necessarily a bad thing. Intoxication and substance use has played an important role in art and culture for thousands of years. To casually dismiss it just seems really short-sighted.

I could write more about this but these are my summarized thoughts.

>America seems to always skew to the extremes of over-indulgence or prohibition.

I completely disagree. You must live in a different bubble than I do and most of HN. Most of the people here support the idea of experimentation with LSD or other psychedelics.

>I simply don’t agree with the idea that everything with a supposedly negative health effect is necessarily a bad thing. Intoxication and substance use has played an important role in art and culture for thousands of years. To casually dismiss it just seems really short-sighted.

To casually support the idea that substance abuse hasn't harmed society seems pretty short sighted as well. Alcohol being a big one, it has such a negative societal impact, yet we are scared to broach the idea in a public forum.

Well I meant more America in general, not so much HN. I doubt the average person, even in somewhere like Northern California, is really encouraging of psychedelics.

And sure of course alcohol and other substance abuse has harmed society and continues to. I’m merely suggesting that moderation is a better solution than prohibition.

I would go further and even say that on HN you see these extremes. People that previously consumed massive, unhealthy amounts of coffee now authoring testimonials and blog posts about how life is better without coffee. People that previously could not go 5 minutes without checking news headlines and Twitter hot takes now authoring testimonials and blog posts about how life is so much better when lived in total ignorance of current events. Lukewarm takes about moderation aren't inspiring and dynamic enough to generate views, upvotes, and discussion. We're always looking for that neat life hack, and "don't do quite as much of X and maybe do a little more of Y" is not very neat.

I can't disagree with that. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

> giving their brain a break by getting plenty of sleep and R&R is just not feasible.

That sounds like some nasty health problems in the making. Over caffeinated, over stimulated and far too little sleep. It’s a recipe for disaster. I’ve seen first hand how it affected my health and I’m still dealing with consequences, although am a lot better now (stress was also a factor) and I’ve seen how drastically coffee addiction can affect people as I’ve had family members who were (past tense luckily) so addicted they were unable to function without multiple very strong cups a day. It was horrible. Be careful people, use stimulants in moderation and be careful not to become completely dependent!

For short periods when you’re super busy, sure, no problem! But every day long term? You’ll damage yourself.

I quit a few years ago. I wrote about my experience: https://enki.org/2017/08/13/quitting-caffeine/

This was a nice read, thank you for sharing.

I give up both alcohol and caffeine for one month every year. I've currently been off caffeine for 2 months. The most pronounced effect is by far the consistent energy levels throughout the day. It's an incredible feeling to wake up in the morning, before sun rise, and just be "ready to go"! You forget what that's like after years of coffee consumption.

I also found I'm much more aware of other folks who are hyped up on caffeine or needing more.

The biggest loss for me is the positive effect that caffeine had on my weightlifting capabilities (via incr blood pressure).

Ultimately I think giving up caffeine for the rest of my life would be the most logical decision; but it's not something I've ever even considered. Habits that act as crutches can have such a powerful hold on our lives.

Increased BP is probably not a good thing I switched to decaf for that reason.

An informative article! And this is the key issue: "One needs to gradually and continually increase the amount of caffeine consumed in order to experience the stimulant effect.".

Thanks. Interesting read. I have cut down my coffee consumption but I still drink it regularly (and I mean that; I drink at at the exact same times every day). Reading about your experiences shows me that I'm really not dependent on the drug. I don't use it a crutch like you did.

I have, however, completely cut out alcohol so I sympathise with the bit about social situations. This was odd for me at first too. At certain evening events you are expected to have a drink at all times. I don't know why, but it's awkward if you don't have one. Water doesn't cut it. It has to be sparkling or brightly coloured or something. I discovered that I can ask for a lime soda pretty much anywhere and it's not too sweet and seems to completely satisfy the need for a drink. It's also cheap. I don't miss alcohol one bit.

As for the laxative effect of coffee, this is something I enjoy. I really hate the feeling I get when my bowels are not regular. The best times of my life are ones where I can set my watch by my bowel movements. It makes a huge difference to my life! So I'm glad if coffee helps me stay regular.

Now that I don’t depend on morning coffee, I have found that my bowels are regular again without any addiction.

I wish there were more decaf options. Good decaf is delicious. There was this startup: https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/a-bold-new-w... that unfortunately never got off the ground. There are also beans from the Swiss water decaf process that you can find at some speciality cafes. What I'd like is a 50/50 blend of decaf/regular beans, something with the content more of tea than coffee.

My dad drank 5+ cups per day, into the evenings. I can't attribute anything, but the guy was the biggest mess of nerves I've seen in my life.

I subscribe to mustache coffee club and they have a decaf option. High quality single origin decaf delivered every week. Highly recommended.

Thanks, I might subscribe once I run out. It took me a while of hunting through their site to find the decaf options, I actually had to start a membership and enter a credit card number to find the it. Now I'm trying to cancel (5 minutes after registering), and it turns out I have to actually email them to cancel it. There's no way for me to cancel through the site. There's also no option to remove my credit card, I can only change it. To change it, for some reason it asks for my email and full name/address again even though I am logged in. This is an unpleasant process and seems more predatory than a porn site, so I might seek an alternative.

I also drink decaf and in my experience (Europe mostly Switzerland), the majority of coffee shops offer it. Just ask. The selection at the supermarket is very limited here, though.

I cut down on my coffee consumption drastically. I used to drink sometimes 6 cups a day as a student, and well into the night. Now I have two cups a day: one in the morning and one at lunch time. I find that my sleep is good because I'm off caffeine by ~23:00 when I go to sleep.

I have completely stopped alcohol, though. That was far, far more detrimental to me health than caffeine and I would encourage others to look at that first before looking at caffeine. There are many benefits of caffeine. There are none for alcohol.

I was never dependent on either drug, though. I often go without coffee when I'm travelling and it's not practical; I don't notice it. The only drug I've had withdrawal symptoms from is cannabis.

> I’ve quit cold turkey after having some anxiety problems and headaches

Use no-doz pills to quit without side effects: reduce/taper/titrate the dose down from one pill per morning to, part-pills, to none over a few weeks.

I quit every few years, and just stopping is very unpleasant. Using caffeine-only No-doz pills as above is cheap and easy. I’ve also done it by using instant coffee and reducing the size of the spoonful of coffee, although it’s mentally harder to break the habit that way. Edit: I guess heavy coffee drinkers might need to start at two pills (check dosage info on package: I've always been fine starting at one). They taste nasty bitter, but OK if quickly washed down with water.

I didn’t know about those pills but they do contain caffeine as you say, so it was no good for me even if temporal. Some people switch to decaf coffee only to find out that it has some caffeine and still affects them. I can’t vouch for that personally but seems a common occurrence.

But it’s a good alternative for those who see it as an impossible task, and also yourself. In my case I had to take NSAIDs - which I very rarely take - for a couple days just to get by (since the vasoconstriction “feature” of coffee wasn’t present anymore, headache ensues) but then I was ok, just tired for some weeks.

Congrats on quitting!

That's a good idea. People have this weird fear of caffeine pills, but many of them are just 100mg of caffeine. That's a cup of coffee. Don't abuse them, and for what you are talking about (easing off caffeine) they are are a great way to easily taper your dose, which can be hard with liquids.

Fear of accidentally high doses of caffeine is founded, especially if you don't fully trust the measurement or quality (e.g. for those sourced from a certain knock-off-prone online retailer).

Excedrin is acetaminophen, aspirin, and caffeine so it helps with the headache and allows you to taper off the caffeine. I trust the accuracy of GSK’s dosage infinitely more than I trust some gas station caffeine pills for college kids.

I think worrying about measurement or quality is being over-cautious. Caffeine is not difficult to source high purity since it is added to drinks etc, and is extracted AFAIK, so risks of quality issues are low. Measurement risks are low because 100mg is a sizeable percentage of the pill volume, so it would be very difficult to reach a bad dose (let alone a lethal dose of 100 pills). 100mg is what you might get from a large or strong cup of coffee. If worried, buy a known brand from a pharmacy for maybe the price of two coffees.

are you serious? tapering liquid coffee is much easier than breaking 100mg pills into smaller sizes.

source: i've quit coffee numerous times, just drink less each day, it's super easy.

Rather than drink less quantity (I don't wanna drink a quarter cup of coffee!), the easiest way I've found is to gradually titrate the coffee with decaf. That way you're not disrupting the ritual while you break the chemical addiction. The same method (gradually turning down the dose, while still indulging the ritual) has seen excellent results for nicotine addiction by using a vape.

Tapering makes a huge difference, and in my own experience, you can taper down pretty quickly. I went from ~5 cups per day down to 1 in 3 days and didn’t really notice it. Caffeine withdrawal from 1 cup a day isn’t that bad.

I had trouble sleeping at the start of the lockdown when I realised my caffeine intake had gone way up, I was drinking 4-5 coffees a day instead of my usual 2. I decided to quit caffeine for a while, I had always thought about quitting just to see how a cup of coffee would work when I wan't drinking so much. I'm off it five weeks now and can't see myself going back to drinking it every day, only as a treat or when really needed as I do enjoy it.

I'm getting some slight anxiety/headache problems from drinking too much coffee, but strangely, I also get them from drinking decaf. Am I alone in this, and what could cause it if it's not the caffeine? (I've ruled out dehydration)

You’re not alone, I mention this fact in this same comment thread. Decaf does have caffeine and if you’re sensitive to it then you’ll still develop sides. This isn’t from my experience (I quit completely at once) but from many experiences that I’ve read. It also happens if you take a bit too much dark chocolate. I’m not saying this is your case as this definitely isn’t the single universal source of anxiety and headaches but you may want to try quitting completely and see how you feel. I noticed it within 1-2 weeks but then I was taking 5-6 cups sometimes.

What was the book?

The book is “Caffeine blues”. There may be better ones or just more up-to-date but this is a popular one among decaf circles and I had easy access to it.

+1 sounds like something a lot of HN readers could use (myself included)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com