Occam's Razor: He's just a senile old coot full of quack theories about everything. There's tons of people like him, you don't have to waste your time on them.
Occam's Razor: He's just a senile old coot full of quack theories about everything. There's tons of people like him, you don't have to waste your time on them.
Most of the damage is caused by the upvotes and replies, but that's what happens when you post something trollish to an inflammatory topic.
Edit: on closer inspection, 22968349 is not so great either because if there's anything interesting to discuss about blood irradiation, it's probably not related to Covid-19.
* An ignorant authoritarian with an obvious agenda sets the discussion topic
* We discuss said topic without mentioning his ignorance, authoritarianism, or agenda
The topic effectively becomes "laundered"? Much like OP, I've seen this over and over again. Trump (or similar) says something batshit insane, a "well, maybe..." topic gets bumped to the front page, political discussion gets culled from the thread, topic gets somewhat normalized. And so the koo-koo express keeps chugging towards the cliff.
At the same time, HN is not for internet ragewar and users here should know enough not to feed those flames.
To be honest, baiting people into discussing this quackery is the actual troll here and I'm genuinely interest why people take the bait. When the media does this, the simple explanation is that they're optimizing for ads. Great, that makes sense, but what's happening here? It's not like this is an astro-turf either, the discussion looks back-and-forth. Is asking people for introspection trolling?
When you call me a troll, you're not calling me a troll in the classical sense of someone posting crap to get a rise out of people. What you're trying to get at is something more subtle - the way a person has an allergy, this particular community has outsized reactions from otherwise very benign opinions, and that I should be aware of these allergies and know not to post them here. But these are not obvious allergies at all and very much at odds with a place that considers itself a place to satiate your intellectual curiosity.
"Asking people for introspection" is a skewed way of describing your original comment. If that was your intent, you should go about it in some way that isn't guaranteed to start a flamewar. I don't think these "allergies" are in any way obscure.
Ditto for "very benign opinions". If that was your intent, you should not be breaking the site guidelines.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: I realized that it might be helpful if I mentioned the other aspect of why I posted what I did. You have a long history of breaking the site guidelines. We've asked you many times to stop that. If this weren't a longstanding pattern I'd probably have reacted differently, but it is a longstanding pattern, so please fix it.
This paper goes into considerable detail about how the suppression of disputes actually fosters an increase in bad behavior by preventing community members from repelling raids by trolls. By not allowing anyone other than yourself to call out bullshit, you're soliciting more of it. You acknowledged above that this is an inflammatory topic but you are spending your efforts on restraining the very people pointing that out.
After a while it dawns on you (me) that whatever someone's inner state is when they post doesn't much matter anyhow—what matters are the observable effects that a post produces. Those are what we react to and base moderation on. When I say that a post was trollish I mean it had that sort of effect on the thread, intentionally or otherwise. I was hoping that linking to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... would make this point clear and that I could get away with just referring to it, but maybe not.
This is a narrow point since it's about the use of a particular word, but it's a word that gets a rise out of people (ironically, I suppose?) and tends to make them feel like they're being personally deemed a "troll", when the point is about posts, not persons. I mostly use the word "flamebait" as a way to just avoid the issue.
Re "prioritization of civility above all else", that's not my view at all and it's a misrepresentation of how we moderate HN. If you said "prioritization of intellectual curiosity above all else", we would actually have something to discuss. Maybe you disagree that that should be the goal? Maybe you think we do a shitty job of it, in this case or even in every case? All that is fine, but being argued with about something that we neither think about nor try to do feels weirdly disconnecting.
"Not allowing anyone other than yourself to call out bullshit" strikes me as a bizarre thing to say. Users do that on HN all the time, which is why the site survives. We ask them to do it while remaining within the site guidelines, which is not only possible but more effective.
That paper looks interesting!
In terms of "prioritization of intellectual curiosity above all else" then you are just opening the door to disingenuous bait posts, glib hyper-pedantry, sealioning, and various other trolling tactics. Of course HN exists for intellectual curiosity, but if that's the only mode of operation then it can be gamed, and it is.
Search on 'guidelines' in this thread and you can see people using the 'good faith assumption/strongest possible interpretation' guidelines to bait others. You're arguing that bullshit is called out on HN all the time, but you shut down people doing so in anything other than polite terms.
Regarding that paper, I urge you to pay particular attention to the comparison of successful vs. unsuccessful defensive strategies, and the fact that successful ones are correlated with higher use of anger words. Your antipathy to flames is what the posters of flamebait rely on to deploy more and more of it. Even if you kick accounts that regularly post flamebait, there's little cost to creating a new one and resuming the practice.
Much like forests, the occasional fire can significantly improve the quality of the overall environment. If you suppress fires so diligently that brush is allowed to build up, then the result can be catastrophic. In this metaphor, the brush is bad-faith discussion and wilfully fallacious arguments.
I think you need to be a bit more hands-off about this and accept that a certain amount of conflict and aggression in fact contribute to sustainability. While that might deter some obscure-but-interesting posts like the one today, the fact is that they will be just as interesting on their merits if posted in a week or two after the news-of-the-day focus has moved elsewhere.
The lesson in this case is not that a generic flamewar about Trump belongs at the top of the #1 thread on HN. If the argument is that I shouldn't have moderated that, I disagree and am pretty sure the community would disagree.
Rather, the lesson in this case is that, because the topic was attracting attention because Trump, this was the worst possible moment for HN to be discussing ultraviolet blood irradiation. A curious discussion was not possible. Thus I downweighted the submission off the front page at the same time as I moderated that flamewar.
I think your fire analogy is off. A better one would be fires in a city, and those don't promote quality. Quite the opposite.
I think your fire analogy is off. An occasional conflagration in a highly-populated city doesn't do anything to promote the quality of the environment. Quite the opposite.
Since I made an explicit analogy to a forest, rewriting it to be about something else kind of makes my point for me.
When? I don't remember that, and I just searched the email archive and didn't find it. I found a mention of 8chan, but not with examples, and certainly not with links to people organizing to target threads here—which is hardly something we would be disagreeing about. Obviously that's abusive.
I imagine it's a feeling of "I'm smart enough to rise above partisan politics" or "I'm smart enough to go against the status quo." In other words, people who believe they're smart enough to avoid getting manipulated, when in fact it's not a matter of smarts at all.
> There's tons of people like him, you don't have to waste your time on them.
Unfortunately, the broader 'you' (society) _kind of does_; I know this is nonsense, but lots of people don't, and when he's promoting dangerous behavior that's a problem (see chloroquine).
Edit: Not sure why I'm being downvoted. Public statements in the official capacity as president are absolutely policy statements for the executive when they aren't affecting independent bodies like the Department of Justice. The Department of Health and Human Services isn't an independent body, and so the president's statements in a damn press briefing are policy positions.
This is like saying that a CEO's press statements somehow aren't policy positions of the company.
Like all the times the President has announced a new policy on Twitter, but none of the people who would be responsible for implementing it knew about it or understood the specifics of what he actually wanted to happen.
He also won, with fewer votes than his competition, while only half of eligible voters cast ballots.
You're allowed to view this person as illegitimate. Sometimes the situation necessitates that we do that.
I don’t think that’s right. The presidential vote count in the 2016 election was 304 Trump to 227 Clinton [0]. And all 50 states voted. What system are you going by?
> You're allowed to view this person as illegitimate
Yes, you are. The constitution grants all sorts of protections from the government for ideas right or wrong. However... If you are using said constitution’s rules for how STATES vote for president, not people vote for president...
[0] https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2016
Edit: I’m confused by reaction, where is the incorrect part here?
Edit2: Oh, the reaction is emotional. I see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...
This site is all about intellectuals being honest and arguing in good faith using the steel man method right?
Edit: “Stop” what? Are the rules of this site not steel man arguments with intellectual honesty? I’m genuinely confused and not trolling at all - where I have posted something incorrect? Because Dang, if the content isn’t correct, why is the post now flagged? If it’s correct info and -10 or so... isn’t that a problem that creates an echo chamber?
Edit: In what way was Trump “selected” and not elected by the rules laid out in the constitution?
Edit2: So not selected, and yes entirely by the rules we’ve always used.
1867: Tilden (4,288,546) - Hayes (4,034,311) - Hayes wins. 1888: Harrison (5,443,892) - Cleveland (5,534,488) - Harrison wins. 2000: Bush (50,456,002) - Gore (50,999,897) - Bush wins 2016: Clinton (65,853,514) - Trump (62,984,828) - Trump wins.
To further confuse the issue, 2 Republican electors and 5 Democratic electors _voted for other candidates_ in 2016, though it wasn't significant in the end.
It's important to note that in no possible way can Electors be considered elected representatives. This often isn't even public information available prior to the election, and your ballot contains none of the names of these Electors. Your vote for presidential candidate A, is really a vote for presidential candidate A's slate of chosen and loyal Electors.
This is in contrast to Federalist 68, which describes a system whereby non-politicians chosen by the people from among the people, at a state level, are to become the Electors for that state. The intent was to make the College both a deliberative body, and external to state politics.
In practice, Federalist 68's vision of how the Electoral College would work never happened. Early on in the country's history the president was indirectly chosen by state legislatures choosing the Electors.
In any case, what we have today are arguably the absolute worst people possible chosen to be Electors: party loyalists. In most states they are even required by law to be non-deliberative, i.e. not vote their conscience but strictly for the candidate who selected them. Since none of the details of how the Electors are chosen or the process they use to make decisions is constitutional law, the states can change how it works.
Is that the US or Russia?
(Light hearted comment for a non serious thread!)
This was me throwing peanuts at a thread that I had hoped would get flagged into the abyss anyway, and already by my reading contained a lot of ironic Friday afternoon eye rolling. A certain sense of gallows humor here, I felt.
I can see my comment is pretty damaging if it gets any actual views (which I didn’t expect it to, but that’s no excuse!)
In another setting it might make a good womp womp dad joke — as intended — but not here.
Your periodic reminder that the US is not in fact a dictatorship, and that random ex-cathedra rambling by Trump does not have the force of law.
no need for conspiracy theory that a cabal of trump supporters are jumping on to find a theory backing his absurd clamis.
You mean Donald Trump or Michael R. Hamblin? Because if it's the first (as a comment downthread implies) then I must've missed a big story, and if the second, then I personally haven't heard this name before.
I'm guessing most HNers are like me: drawn to interesting ideas that seem to make sense on the surface. Here, UV light is a known and powerful disinfectant (and seemingly very much underused in this pandemic), ionizing radiation is commonly used in medicine, and applying it as a blood filter sounds like a plausible idea - so overall, sounds like a compelling reason to check out the article and the comment section.
Yeah but it was more like a slow news day than a big story. Yesterday President Trump said this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHkzqejFKbM
And the media reacted as expected.
If this technology were effective, we would already be using it. This isn't some secret cure that we forgot about - it's an ineffective treatment that we did away with.
Focusing on this topic isn't for the benefit of COVID-19 patients during this crisis - it's for the benefit of Donald Trump's reelection as he gambles on snake oil cures for this virus.
So maybe ask yourself what you care about more: Human life, or politics?
Edit: Apparently he was being "sarcastic". Unbelievable. https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1253736546534141963
Even if he was "normal" politician, we shouldn't be listening to politicians about medical advice, and they shouldn't be pushing pseudoscience contrary to what medical professionals and virologists are saying.
Asking loaded questions about pseudoscience, that implies that there is some sort of promise in it, absolutely counts as peddling it.
"So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting."
There was more about possibly injecting disinfectants but you get the drift. As of a few minutes ago he's saying that he 'asking a question sarcastically to see what would happen.' https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/494519-trump-say...
I'm reminded of this cartoon: https://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/29513-What-Troll...
The fact that he went off script and talked about things that aren’t confirmed and are speculation is not good, but he did say it was speculation.
Yes he should be more responsible in his comms as president, but your attitude of automatic dismissal and thinking he’s an idiot is exactly why he managed to get elected under the radar.