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Comment by rrmm | Hacker News Reader

Most every game is on some level about wasting time. Good games make wasting time enjoyable.

Edit: Oh boy, I didn't even realise TFA was written by the same guy. I hadn't read it yet, no wonder it's bringing up the same discussions. /endEdit

I stumbled upon this article a while ago which attempts to argue that former idea to absurdity, it's very well written. I disagree with almost the whole thing, but it was fun to see someone disconnect themselves so far from the simple, real time engagement of a playing a video game. It's an entirely valid way to look at games, but it's just a very shallow view on games as a medium. He even accidentally discovers the real reasons why we play games as he works hard to make his case on the gameplay-as-work idea. Full respect to the author, and I'm sure they knew exactly how contrarian they were being.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/10/dont-...

Some of my favourite quotes:

>"That’s the big problem with video games: To enjoy them, you have to play them."

> "Game-play—the work of working a game—is fundamentally irritating"

> "And like all labor, the best way to get it done is to farm it out to others. Let the memers honk their geese so you don’t have to."

games are a grind everyone thats ever played an mmo knows flipping specific builds/leveled accounts using botting software is some of the most common middle schoolers first money making enterprise

at some level almost all games could be reduced to a version of cookie clicker

good games keep players actively looking for a new meta by tweaking and adding content, similar to the everchanging running of a business

GTAV is actually a really interesting game in this regard. It's trying to balance full, immersive gameplay and story, with grind and grow mechanics like a traditional MMO has.

The grind is the least fun part of the game, but also why you keep coming back.

>at some level almost all games could be reduced to a version of cookie clicker

I can think of some interesting counterexamples: in games like Minecraft and Factorio, you create something and are left with an interesting artifact you've designed. In MMOs, you're often left with new friendships.

But I'd be lying if I said I played those games primarily for those outcomes. It feels like each of those games still have some core meat that's shared with cookie clicker, and those other things that come out of it are somehow secondary in my short-term choice to play the game.

ive yet to delve into factorio (afraid itll have the same effect as civ tbh) but minecraft is very mind numbing early to mid game with all the farms esp with mob spawner/villager procurement to create their farms and resource grind. building and exploration in mc alongside amount of mods and great servers do make you forget about how insanely grindy it is for a bit

I disagree with this strongly — good games are not a grind and not all games have leveling mechanics.

> games are a grind everyone thats ever played an mmo knows

You seriously need to expand your pool of games.

I got into cookie clicker and such incremental games only last year or so, but it's made me incredibly cynical about a lot of games now, lol.

While I agree in principle, the rewards in a lot of games isn't only the satisfaction in watching numbers go up (= progress, I guess?), but also an enjoyable game loop (I experienced that with Diablo 3 in which you play through the same content over and over again, but the speed of which you eventually blow through thousands of enemies is gratifying) and an unfolding storyline. I had that best with the old Final Fantasy games, where progress was frequently rewarded with cutscenes and the whole game is mostly a storyline you can follow.

On that note the FFVII Remake is a great game to get into.

> Full respect to the author, and I'm sure they knew exactly how contrarian they were being.

Yes, Ian Bogost is a respected game designer and developer.

Has he released anything that ever had any success? I just looked on his Wikipedia page, and it looks like he primarily does contract game development as a way to advertise for different political groups. Here's an excerpt from his his studio's website about the themes for some of his games.

airport security, consumer debt disaffected workers, pandemic flu tort reform, suburban errands data compression, the petroleum industry, the politics of nutrition food inspection, factory farming fast food franchise economics, chemical bonding, grass-roots outreach

Cow Clicker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker

> The game serves as a deconstructive satire of social games

> The goal of the game is to earn "clicks" by clicking on a sprite of a cow every six hours. [...] A premium currency known as "Mooney" allows the user to purchase different cow designs and skip the six-hour interval between clicks.

This doesn't really sound "successful" in the traditional sense.

Except that there's a direct line from Cow Clicker to Cookie Clicker and the entire idle games genre. Sure, this wasn't Bogost's intention, but it's hard to deny his influence here.

> This doesn't really sound "successful" in the traditional sense.

I'm not sure the "traditional sense" of successful was what he was going for. However, it was successful, nevertheless.

Good games make you feel like the bottleneck. Being slow at something because you haven't worked it out or because your process is inefficient feels like rewarding gameplay because as you improve, your speed improves. Having to hammer the A button for 10 minutes to craft 10 of the same item doesn't make for rewarding gameplay.

That's a great way of putting it. I have enjoyed many Sims and builders up to the point where I know exactly what I need to do but the scale and limitations of the interface and actions available to me just make it feel like an enormous hassle. Up to that point every action was a thrill. That's when a sense of disgust and waste sets in and I quit the game. Often for good.

Incidentally multicrafting in AC:NH was one of the cases I was alluding to. Making Fish Bait is painful.

Tbh, this is one thing I miss about games before the internet. The pauses and timing is part of the game, it's something you have to contend with. If anything, it makes it more challenging, for example, getting enough of a hot item in before 10pm requires organization. Now with the internet gamers cry all day like children on twitter for QOL improvements instead of just, you know, dealing with it. Before the internet, games had to be a) tested very well but b) were delivered as a final product, few updates if any, so gamers actually had to contend with the game as it was.

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