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Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Anyone know if they've fixed the bug where someone could set the tip to $50 and then remove it entirely at or after delivery ("tip baiting")?

https://nypost.com/2020/04/10/people-are-baiting-grocery-del...

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Bug or feature? If the shopper does a terrible job and brings the complete wrong things, you should be able to reduce the tip.

Presumably the argument against this is that it should not be allowed because then the shoppers don't make a reasonable living wage. Then why not solve the actual problem? Raise the delivery fee to where the wage is reasonable, don't make them rely as heavily on tips.

You should only be able to reduce the tip through a dispute with Instacart justifying the compensation reduction (and banned for repeat abuse of the process), compensation that was offered as part of the job bid.

at that point it should probably no longer be called a tip... sounds like a different form of compensation

Right, like a guaranteed incentive bonus. With an indisputable deliverable, like GPS at the person's house. But, as with everything, it could probably end up being gamed.

What about any number of other things that can go wrong? They say something rude to you or are in some other way unprofessional? You know, the kinds of customer service niceties that are the entire point of tipping.

I’d suggest then not basing your business model on dumping your costs on the worker and the customer, so these hacks and discussions are negated.

Dumping costs on the customer is fine if it’s transparent. Hiding behind tipping rather than wages based on the cost of providing a service is unsustainable.

I mean what do they expect? A shame based tipping economy for delivery?

Yes, a lot of companies rely on you feeling personally bad for the person you're dealing with when having an issue with the company as a whole. The company tries to "humanize" themselves in this way by tossing a peon/cog onto the front lines to bear the brunt of customer hostilities, with little resources to actually solve problems, then when the satisfaction survey comes down they'll hold the cog personally responsible for the dissatisfaction of the customer instead of actually reviewing and changing customer-hostile policies.

"Make a human connection and smile", doesn't solve dark pattern markup fees(Instacart), or terrible search interface that steers you towards the what the business wants you to buy at the price they want you to buy it at(Amazon), or that you got $200 in overdraft fees on $15 worth of purchases(any major bank).

these are the economies (efficiencies) many large corporations gain when they use (often low-wage, high-pressure) call centers to substitute for real customer service/sales.

they suck away power/information from both sides of the transaction (low-wage worker & customer) and use arms-length arguments to shield the managers & owners from the complexities and cost of genuine, trusting human interaction. it's dehumanizing all around.

> What about any number of other things that can go wrong? They say something rude to you or are in some other way unprofessional?

This should be fairly unusual.

If someone's dropping tips on every order, they should lose the ability to do so.

How many customer service niceties are you exchanging with your instacart deliverer?

Before covid it was a short "thanks" or "nice day out". Now I don't even seen them because they usually just leave it outside the gate.

On my recent order, about half a dozen interactions while she picked the order, because many items were out of stock and she made substitutions.

Then it’s not a tip at all.

The solution is to not show hypothetical tips to workers before the tip is finalized.

Maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but what about getting rid of a tip altogether and have a reasonable wage?

All tips do is subsidizing the employer allowing them to pay less and makes customers feel guilty to provide tip, even when there was nothing special about the service or even when it was bad.

I think the best way to solve it is simply not show shoppers the tip ahead of time so that it isn't a factor in choosing the job. That way people can't game the system.

Alternatively, they could give the buyer the option of "locking" the tip so it can't be changed, or of keeping it variable, or a % of it variable so that shoppers can make an informed judgment about the likelihood of getting a certain tip level.

Jesus, no. Just make it impossible to fuck people over like this. It's not complicated. Tweak the app so it's not possible. Done. Easy.

People shouldn't get paid in tips. The fees should go up to cover cost-of-living and hazard pay, or at least until there are enough shoppers to cover demand.

I should be able to get reliable orders with $0 tip. I shouldn't pay less, and people shouldn't get paid less; it should go into the fee.

If it is a tip, I should have control. One shopper got me the wrong bag of food. If tips are there, tips are intended to manage that, not to bribe someone into taking an order.

There are legitimate reasons to lower a tip. Tips should come at the end after the service is rendered. If the shopper is aware of it ahead of time it’s more like a bribe than a tip.

How are you supposed to tip BEFORE getting your things?

I mean, a tip should be according to the service provided. If it takes way longer than expected, or the items are wrong, why would you tip $50?

Maybe the problem is allowing the tip to be put before receiving your things...

It’s a dark pattern to pull people on to the platform who wouldn’t do the work for the tipless comp alone. “Surge pricing” that can be revoked by the buyer at will. At least Uber doesn’t let riders renig on the surge fee.

*renege

iPhone autocorrect always seems to fail in just the wrong ways.

You're supposed to tip? I tried Safeway delivery and there was no option to tip. Tipping needs to just go away. It's completely arbitrary.

Tipping will be necessary while Instacart underpays their employees.

In order for tipping to go away, the employer needs to provide a higher level of compensation equal to the average $tips typically earned. But companies like tipping because it offloads some of the salary burden as an additional line-item expense to the buyer.

the companies won't increase wage unless people stop tipping, why increase wage if employees are happy?

Good luck convincing companies to give up fat profits. If only we had some sort of governing body to make edicts that everyone follows. Laws, if you will. They could require companies to pay a living wage.

If the tip is visible before the services rendered that should be separate as its basically bidding on the services not a tip. A separate tip should be editable and hidden until after services are rendered.

It would make more sense if the grocery buyers were instead bidding on a delivery service by an instacart shopper. This is really what is happening with tipped groceries delivery.

I think they fixed it partially. Last time I got instacart delivered the options were: keep your current tip, 5%, 10%, and 15%. You're no longer allowed to edit your tip to 0 but if you did tip a large sum then you can reduce your tip to 5%.

I think there is a (small, mostly hidden) option to set any tip amount. They just removed the 0% preset.

I know I’ll get downvoted for saying this. But I believe I shouldn’t have to tip and make up for a shitty employer. But at the same time I’ve had many bad deliveries due to this. So now I tip well then switch back to 0, this way I get normal treatment that is unrelated to how I tip.

I understand that people might disagree with me but I’m tired of this constant shaming when I genuinely believe that if we all stopped tipping minimum wage would increase.

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