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Comment by riantogo | Hacker News Reader

This also applies to offline solicitation. Someone came to my door and asked me to sign on to switching my gas supplier. He said it is a supply chain change and will not affect anything beyond I getting a smaller monthly bill, still coming from PG&E. I told him that it sounds wonderful but this is the first I'm hearing of such a thing and I need to research online what it is about before signing anything. He said he has all the details in his paper folder and I can read it. I insisted on doing my own research. He said the deal is off once he leaves and it is my last chance. I told him, "so be it, such is life".

Did a quick Google search the next day and figured the process is legit but people out there have gotten higher bills than before.

Moral is to fight the human-interaction pressures and be adamant on doing your own research. No shame in that.

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My standard response to that sort of thing is, "Sorry, but my personal policy is to not make any decision without sleeping on it first." That usually gets them right to the "deal is off" phase quickly, since there's really no good rebuttal for that. Or they leave their materials. Either way, they leave me alone.

You can in fact close the door on people. This is also effective.

The fact that people even open the door to strangers with clipboards is hard for me to comprehend.

If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason. If you have a badge and a gun, I'm probably not opening the door.

If they have a badge and gun demand that they slip the warrant under the door first. Then call the watch commander to verify it.

Do they just wait around to let you take your time to go back and call to verify?

I don't know, never been served a search warrant.

Obviously this isn't legal advice, but it's what defense lawyer friends have suggested if it ever comes up.

I think that popular video about "never talk to cops" mentions something like it too?

I assume if they don't wait, it helps your court case. They could always go with the "probable cause" argument, but again this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause.

I'm less worried about the court case and more worried about what can immediately go wrong if you look like you're stalling.

> ... this can help your case if you can prove they didn't have actual cause.

Pro-tip: if they're at your door with a warrant, they have probable cause.

Yeah but if they're robbers with a fake badge and gun, how will I know? At least when they barge in I'll already be on the phone with the cops.

Your threat model is imaginary, if they are robbers posing as cops, they wouldn't knock and wait patiently, they'd just serve you a fake "no knock warrant" (kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades).

I'm sorry, this comment is not necessarily a reply to you directly but to the thread in general--are we talking about the real world or some fictional TV show? Genuine question, is this something a "normal" HN reader should be worried about? Is there any evidence of such incidents happening ("kick open your door and bust in with flash bang grenades")?

I see no reason why a robber posing as a cop would want to draw more attention to themselves than necessary.

Could just be at the wrong door.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/aiyana-stanley-...

My understanding is a valid warrant (which as someone else mentioned does not have to be a physical piece of paper) grants them immediate access and they don't have to wait to verify. If you don't open the door, it will be opened for you by battering ram - demanding you open it is more of a courtesy.

Think about it: say someone has a bunch of drugs, you wouldn't want to give them time to start flushing it down the toilet while they call up and verify the warrant is valid. You kick the door in, arrest them, and secure the scene for forensics and evidence collection.

I assumed something along those lines, but I think they have to knock unless there's a no-knock warrant? I just don't expect they'll be amused if you tell them to hang on for a few minutes while you "verify" the warrant.

There's a lot that go wrong with this approach, and the upside is pretty obviously dwarfed by the (small to minuscule, depending on many many factors) chance of getting murdered while puffing about your rights. Whose front door has a gap underneath it, anyway?

Assuming they knock and announce they have a warrant as opposed to knocking the door down, you open the door and they start coming in immediately. You can read the warrant, they'll likely shove it in your face. You should be on the phone to an attorney or the local bar association before the last officer in past the threshold, anyway.

I'm pretty shocked an attorney would suggest doing something that can very likely be construed as stalling for time when tensions are likely pretty high.

You're aware that -- regardless of what you might have seen on TV or the movies -- they don't actually have to present a physical warrant, right?

Nor do they have to allow you time to call a "watch commander to verify it".

What is likely, however, is that you're gonna be shopping for a new front door if you don't open up by about the second knock -- if they give you that long.

What a weird, paranoid idea. Typically people come to my door for legitimately useful or appropriate purposes.

It's not paranoid, I don't think everybody knocking is coming to get me or anything. I'm just not interested in whatever it is they have to offer.

If I'm in the market for a service, I'll do the research and reach out.

The only people who come to my door are gas people saying that they're going to be turning it off for a period/back on, window washers coming to clean the windows they can't reach from the outside, and similar things. I do want what they offer, because it's useful/important.

He also lives in the US, where current laws and general social norms and expectations means there's a much higher perceived/actual risk to opening your front door to a random stranger, so it's less surprising to hear this..

This problem, at least at that level of magnitude, does not exist in other parts of the world.

Have you ever lived in the US? You're statement is probably only somewhat valid in the worst neighborhoods. People don't shoot you in the face when you open the door...

People come to the door in my neighborhood for only a few reasons:

- to sell me on religion

- to solicit money for some kind of commercial service, charity, non-profit fundraiser

- to sign me up for political stuff

And they do this several times a week (pre-COVID). So I never open the door to surprise strangers. It's not paranoia; it's just preventing the waste of my time and emotional energy. I'm not interested in worshipping a sky demon. It's not incumbent on me to figure out whether the service is legit, rent-seeking grift on top of a legit service, or a total scam. I don't have to figure out how to gently turn them down just to keep junk food out of the house.

I once got lost in typical U.S. suburbia and the first door I knocked the guy wouldn't tell me the direction I needed to go but insisted on driving me there.

I was conscious of being percieved as a potential threat in that situation. But me being percieved as a likely nuisance to be ignored didn't cross my mind.

The only people who ever come to my door are salespeople and religious nuts

What? What if it's a neighbour you haven't met asking you over for a bbq? Or somebody who noticed your garage door was swinging open and wanted you to know they'd closed it?

Or OMG what if somebody needs a boost because their car battery is dead? Oh man, I couldn't bear it if I became that guy who didn't give someone a boost.

Signed, A Canadian HN user

I’d hope none of your hypotheticals would require a “clipboard in hand”, which is the red flag GP mentions - likely it’s a cold calling solicitation.

"If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason"

That was with the pretext of it being a person standing at your front door with a clipboard--if such a person did not also have a badge and a gun, GP wouldn't open the door.

This really hit me for some reason. I’m a non white American, and not to exaggerate, afraid of knocking on a stranger’s door.

I’d be quite worried if I ever became stranded in a white neighborhood and had to knock on a random door for assistance.

I hope you'll consider changing your media diet, because your current selection is filling you with irrational racist fear. That's not how the real world is. Consider lolc's comment below:

"I once got lost in typical U.S. suburbia and the first door I knocked the guy wouldn't tell me the direction I needed to go but insisted on driving me there.

I was conscious of being percieved as a potential threat in that situation. But me being percieved as a likely nuisance to be ignored didn't cross my mind."

It is what it is. I’d rather be overly cautious than the potential alternative.

My concern is neither racist or irrational, based on my particular racial mix and phenotype.

I think your comment might have had a useful alternative perspective if it could have been made without calling the parent racist and irrational. ISTM difficult to change someone's mind while disparaging their reason and character.

With all the news I keep hearing from the US, I can't say I blame you. It's sad, though. I want to live in a society where people can knock on each other's door, and open the door trusting it's a legitimate friendly talk or person in need, and not a threat or someone looking to take advantage of me.

If you don't have a badge and a gun, I'm not opening the door for any reason.

Then when your irrigation system has sprung a leak and is spewing water all over the side of my house, I'm going to go to the valve on the sidewalk in front of your house and turn off the water to your house while your family is trying to shower and make breakfast.

That's exactly what happened when my neighbor refused to answer his door one morning at 6am.

You guys have valves on the sidewalk that anyone can just shut off?

Yep. They're metal lids labeled "water" that you lift up and inside there is a valve that can be turned. They're very common in most cities in which I've lived.

There's usually an internal and an external shutoff valve. Inside is easier when you're working on things inside, but the water company may need to turn off your water, and they can't depend on being able to get inside. So valve on the sidewalk (or in the lawn as the case may be).

What do guns have to do with anything? Why would a badge alone not be enough? Why are you trying to sound so epic? What are you trying to prove? Are you the type of person who brings assault rifles to a protest to make some sort of cowboy-style point?

I totally get not wanting to talk to people who are trying to sell you something, but if you are such a bad ass, living in your wild west world, why don't you try bringing up the courage to just tell someone at your door that you won't buy anything from them? Seems easy enough to me.

> You can in fact close the door on people.

Hence the saying "get your foot in the door" for getting an opportunity to talk to someone.

Hopefully ensuring that anyone who tries that just happens to subsequently suffer foot pain will work as a deterrent...

Though less socially acceptable. I find that to be the primary advantage of gp's approach.

Yep, I have a standing rule that I don't buy anything marketed by someone standing at my front door (I will make an exception for Girl Scout cookies). Someone at your front door is interrupting you, and creating a power imbalance leveraging long standing cultural norms that you invite people in and are courteous. That may apply to neighbors and friends, but not to salespeople.

True on cultural norms. Myself I have found myself being rude and when I answer the door, I point at the "No Soliciting" sign directly below the door bell and keep repeating "No Thank You" until they leave or I decide to close the door if they persist.

As an urbanite: Lol good luck. If you ain’t texting “here” , I ain’t opening the door. What’s a doorbell? :D

This is exactly the reason why there are specific limitations on so called "Haustürgeschäfte" (sales made on the perch of your own home) in German and European law. For example you get a reasonable time period to rethink those sales without any charges.

Yes exactly (I've lived in Germany). And where I live now in southern California, thank goodness, it's actually against the law to "solicit door to door" (I think that's how the law is written).

Before I lived "here", every weekend, guaranteed, at least 4-5 knocks on the door on Saturday & Sunday afternoon (combined). Trying to sell me something that I didn't need, didn't want, and often it felt like a scam.

There are limitations in the US, too:

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2015/08/door-door-sales-an...

A good more general rule is not ever to buy anything from anyone who has initiated the first contact. Not sure that's going to be an entirely popular thought on a forum of entrepreneurs who live and die by their marketing to an extent, but from a recipient's point of view I do advocate it.

I try not to buy anything that I haven't of my own free will realized I needed or really wanted and then sought out a solution for.

And this is why I canceled my amazon prime membership

On the flip side, it’s far easier to sell to someone that comes to you. In fact, many businesses do just that and don’t even bother with cold sales. This is trivially true in the case of stores but also marketing companies, SaaS offerings. And really it’s better that way. It’s not unsolicited, both have mutual interest and the buyer clearly sees value enough to talk to somebody on the expectation it’ll cost.

This works extremely well as a tourist too. If someone is walking up and offering something to me that is almost always a no. Scams frequently depend on seeking out targets.

Indeed. I always think to myself: if it’s worth coming to my door or cold-calling me there must be a pretty margin. And then they claim it’ll be so much cheaper than my well-researched current contract. Yeah, right.

The only thing that will sometimes peak my interest enough to listen to the pitch, is if they offer non-monetary upside.

Pique (sorry couldn't not do it)

I remember my dad telling me about a farmer he knew, who said to him once, (pointing at his lane), "Any time Jim, I see a f*er driving in that road I know he's not doing it for my benefit"

Last time I just opened the door and spoke first: "Sorry I don't have time to talk to strangers right now" and closed the door before he could say one word.

I'm thinking of preparing an mp3 of a chaotic household (think 10 kids screaming and fighting) for improved effect in the future.

I do something similar.

Before they can speak, I say, "Are you selling solar, politics, or religion?"

They always protest, "But I'm not selling anything..." and go into their sales pitch.

I interrupt with again with, "Solar, politics, or religion?"

90% of the time it's solar. I tell them I rent, and they go away.

this is absolutely true and any product or service that requires sending people to knock on doors in order to sell it is by definition not worth buying, because if it were, they'd sell plenty using regular advertising. anyone that comes to my house to sell something is automatically a scam in my perspective and it is usually those fake electric company / gas people, though sometimes someone offering to redo my driveway.

I outright reject anyone trying to sell me a subscription model at the door - a lot of charities do that, and their sales talk nowadays includes that I can cancel at any time.

But the caveat there is that if I were to do a one-time donation, they would still have my information and the permission to receive mail on file.

Charities are marketing companies; they collect money and advertising permission, and give you direct mailed marketing in return.

"We do not give money at the door"

"We do not buy things at the door"

When someone tells me the offer expires when I walk out the door etc, I just reply "It must not be that good of a deal if you don't want me to comparison shop." I've never run into a salesperson that had a good/any comeback to that.

There seems to be a huge margin on those things, which bring all kinds of sleazy tactics for third party marketing companies.

I had a call from a guy claiming to be from PECO (my power co) with a good deal to switch off of PECO. Indeed we do have alternate generation supplier options, but this smelled. So I asked him several times if he worked for them and he insisted. Finally i agreed and he wanted to route me to a neutral, recorded line, agreement gathering company, but he said it would identify as "xyz energy". Whoops, deal's off, fat liar.

"Exploding offers" (the deal is off when he leaves) and other hard-sell tactics are big red flags in general, IMO. If I get a whiff of hard-sell it's an automatic and unconditional "no."

"Oh, do you need me to make an emotional decision? Right now? Hang on a minute--how do you think this is going for us both?"

I've been working on this over the years, since I noticed a tendency to just go along to make the uncomfortable situation go away. Just having a mental flag helps a lot: "this is probably BS, don't agree to anything."

Just an FYI, my town (in Pennsylvania) passed an anti-peddling / door-to-door sales ordinance to get these high pressure utility sales guys off our streets. You might want to talk to your city council about doing the same.

At this point we can call the cops on them and the cops can issue a citation. I haven't seen them since the ordinance was passed.

My town (in New Jersey) has a similar law. We have a list at town hall. You can ask to be put on the list. Salesman must not go to your door if you are on the list. Only problem is that charities and politicians are exempt from the requirement.

If someone knocks on my door and I haven't invited them over I don't even consider answering it. It doesn't matter to me what sort of uniform they are wearing. The same goes phone calls. I don't understand the obligation people feel to engage in unsolicited meetings and conversations.

> I don't understand the obligation people feel to engage in unsolicited meetings and conversations.

If they get you on the line, you're going to fight against a professional liar on an uphill territory made of cultural norms and basic politeness. Turns out disengaging from a conversation isn't easy. But how do they get you on the line in the first place?

Like anyone, you probably have frequent periods of time when you have a lot of errands in progress. Maybe you've ordered a bunch of things on-line, booked a trip, just sent documents to your accountant, and posted your car for sale. Any of these can face roadblocks that generate a phone call. In such periods of time, you'll be more likely to pick up that unknown number calling in, because maybe it's one of the vendors calling with an issue that can either be resolved in 30 seconds on the phone, or 2 days via e-mail.

For the bad actors (marketers), it's a numbers game. Personally, I also don't take calls from numbers I don't know... except whenever I run any kind of errand remotely, which is when they usually manage to catch me (only for me to wait until they tell me what they want, at which point I hang up).

Just say "hang on a minute" and mute the phone without disconnecting. Waste more of their time than they wasted of yours.

I do this to some extent. Usually if they get me on the line, I have them wait, then come back after a few minutes, then have them wait, pretend I can't hear them well, pretend I don't understand their questions, etc. It's a bit of a burden, but kind of fun. But really my reasoning is that if they weren't on the phone with me, someone who won't fall for their scam, they would be on the phone with someone more likely to fall for their scam, so better me waste some of my time and have a little fun than the next person losing a bunch of money to a scam.

If you answer the call at all you will be put on the "Answers calls" list and sold to the next company. It's a way of cleaning calling lists from dead numbers.

>. In such periods of time, you'll be more likely to pick up that unknown number calling in, because maybe it's one of the vendors calling with an issue that can either be resolved in 30 seconds on the phone, or 2 days via e-mail.

I haven't picked up an unsolicited phone call or answered the door in 25 years and I never had a problem with it.

Learning to say no to solicitors gives you the freedom to make new connections with your neighbors. People enjoy that freedom.

I second this. If I’m not expecting it then I don’t bother. If something is important then they'll call a second time and leave a voicemail or come knocking again but that has rarely happened.

Because a world in which people are unwilling to answer their doors is depressing, and answering the door is only going to cost you like 30 seconds of your time.

I get what you're saying, but I get irate at people who don't answer calls from unknown numbers. Spam or soliciting? Hang up and block caller. It doesn't take more than 5 seconds.

I've been in situations when I don't have access to my cell phone and I need help from friends, so I call from a stranger's cellphone. I never get an answer. I have to text them from the stranger's phone (and see their text messages), wait for them to see the message, then accept the call. It's incredibly frustrating.

One problem here is that by answering at all, you're confirming your phone number as one with a real live person on the end. They track this and will keep calling. Anecdotally I noticed after I stopped picking up, the number of calls I was getting decreased.

I like to pick up and immediately hit mute. If they say something, maybe I reply, but typically the spam callers just hang up after a few seconds. I read somewhere that picking up but not saying anything can take you off the rotation or something

I've done the same for a span of a couple months--immediate mute, no interaction. It didn't seem to make a difference one way or other other though with regard to call frequency.

It's just a machine calling. If you pick up and make a sound, you will be immediatelly connected to a person. If no person is available it will just drop the call and call again later. Only way is to not answer.

I maintain voicemail for that purpose and would call you right back. And call blocking doesn’t work well, since caller id is easily spoofed.

I block all calls from non-contact numbers, and I have never experienced a spoofing of a contact number, so IME call blocking works very well.

> ... I get irate at people who don't answer calls from unknown numbers. Spam or soliciting? Hang up and block caller. It doesn't take more than 5 seconds.

I'd like for you to spend a day at my grandmother's house.

She's had the same landline number for probably 50 years and gets - no kidding -- probably 20 of these calls a day. It may not "take more than 5 seconds" but it gets real f'in' annoying real f'in' quick.

She now only answers calls from numbers she recognizes. She will pick up if you yell at her on the answering machine, though!

Also, as of iOS 13 (or whenever it was they introduced the feature), I am -- thankfully -- no longer even aware of calls or text messages from numbers that aren't in my contacts until I pick up my phone and look. My phone doesn't beep, ring, or ding if I receive a call or text from an "unknown number" -- and I could not be happier about that!

Doesn't Google have an automatic call screening thing? Maybe it was related to Voice and/or a pilot program they cancelled. But I'd expect people around here to know about it.

Exact same experience about a year ago, I also passed up the deal and ultimately concluded later that it was legit. I then emailed PG&E telling them that whoever is doing this is training people to trust a random, pushy person at the door who shows nothing other than a badge and iPad full of content.

These people work on commission or quota, which is why they're so pushy.

Nothing is ever that urgent. If they insist on immediate purchase, I invariably walk.

My policy is before any time sensitive decision is to determine if it is manufactured time sensitivity, that is the company created the time sensitivity. I refuse to act on things that are only time sensitive because someone else decided it should be. Those are traps.

> Nothing is ever that urgent

It took me decades to learn this. I mean, to really learn it.

Barring emergencies (like blood squirting out of puncture wound, or part of your house is on fire):

NOTHING is ever urgent.

You set the pace of your life. You speak when you are ready. You act when you are ready. Take as much time as you need to think.

We would only put up our Christmas tree on Christmas Eve when I was growing up, and it was ever so stressful watching my father haggle on the tree lot.

My dad: "It's worth nothing to you tomorrow."

Tree guy: "You're not gonna have Christmas?"

"No, I will buy a plastic tree for the same price and never buy from you again."

That is an excellent example. Who really has the upper hand? Depends on how close the competition is, I guess. And how close the competition is to their competitors..

Tree guy, you can have Christmas without a tree. I hate Christmas trees. They take up space I don't (didn't; I have more space now) have, and spread needles everywhere. And I'm Christian, so I'm not that big on the pagan symbols anyway.

This is why I've done my damnedest to avoid jobs that require additional on-call time. It invites abuse where everything has to be a crisis. I worked in e-commerce ONCE. Grandma can't buy shoes at 2am because part of the site isn't working? This is not an urgent situation.

Unless it's the Joint Chiefs calling me up from the war room to stop a meteor from destroying the planet, I'd rather go back to sleep. Even then I still might: they can fire me in the morning if there is one.

Pressure sales are an automatic 'no'.

Saves so much time and energy, and you rarely if ever actually miss out on anything good.

I would tell them to fuck off and go back to sales school - these tactics don't work in today's day and age, they worked when information was opaque, you got the world's information at your fingertips now.

Those tactics still work for most people who don't know any better. Most people are still too lazy (even when you tell them it's so easy to save money).

Yeah, sadly there is a sucker born every minute.

Speaking of school, being aware of sales/marketing/scam tactics and how to defend against them should be taught very early on.

I have yet to find a use for some advanced math school tried to teach me when I was a teen, while basic life skills like how to manage finances, deal with scams, etc are invaluable.

"I have to talk to my wife/husband/SO/roommate". Works for practically any decision that you need time to make.

"No." is a complete sentence.

Some people like non-confrontational ways of saying "No.".

Sometimes you really do need to think things over before making a decision. "No" closes doors before you've had a chance to consider.

It prevents weasley salesdroids from seizing an opportunity to take you to the cleaners.

Please read what I wrote again.

How does "I'll get back to you after considering" let "weasley salesdroids" take advantage, as long as you hold firm? If you're not the type of person to hold firm after saying that, you won't hold firm after saying "No" either.

Because people don't hold firm. You're just inviting them to pull out another one of their lines.

I think you either fail to read comments in their entirety or just focus on one thing. So I'll say it again "Someone who can't hold firm won't hold firm. It doesn't matter if they 'No', or 'I need to think about it'".

Plenty of companies here that are like subletters for utilities; they claim to be able to offer you a lower energy bill because they buy up electricity in bulk, but when I looked into it it turns out that in practice they're only cheaper the first year. These aren't energy companies, they're marketing / sales companies.

Anyway I went with one of the "source" power suppliers who instead offer a loyalty discount that builds up over time. I'm sure switching suppliers every year will be a bit cheaper in the long run but I choose reliability and convenience in this case. Also because the reseller companies tend to pop up and be bought up / merge constantly. Besides, it gives me some moral peace of mind that I'm paying the company producing electricity directly instead of a marketing middle man.

Used to work for a sales company, impulse is a textbook tried-and-true sales tactic. For everyone like yourself that decides to sit on it another jumps at the offer.

A simple "No Soliciting" sign can help ward off many such ruses given the further illegality of proceeding with soliciting when such a sign is visible. (This also may signal you are not as easy a mark and therefore not worth their time.) Doorbell cams + Nextdoor/Citizen make this even harder since one skeptic can poison a neighborhood.

It's legal, but it's not legit. They are trying to rip you off and they are lying to you.

Thanks for sharing. Questionable whether it's legit since they're apparently making false verbal promises of a lower bill. Hard to prove, yes. It's not right just because a corporation does it.

The ol' reverse psychology eh? I don't want this deal. Oh yeah, well you can't have this deal. WHAT!? I'LL TAKE IT IMMEDIATELY!

> He said the deal is off once he leaves and it is my last chance

Standard sales pitch tactic: "manufacture a sense of urgency"

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