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Comment by whoisjuan | Hacker News Reader

I mean, let's be objective for a minute here. Do you really believe that Walmart, Target, Costco, Kroger, etc, are more ethical with their suppliers than Amazon?

Let's not forget that many of these large retailers have moved to the practice of taking up to 90 days to pay their suppliers. 90 DAYS! That's three months before you see the money of the product you sold through their channels. And they do this because they simply can.

I believe that there's not a single retailer that doesn't leverage its distribution advantage to squeeze their suppliers. If you're not Coca Cola, PepsiCo, Unilever, Procter and Gamble or Colgate Palmolive, you have little to no room for negotiation.

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I've done consulting for small business distributing into major stories.

Other stores are very very UPFRONT on what they will do. Many make the small mfg sign an agreement that not only will the store have all the data, but the mfg will need to pay the STORE if they want the data.

The difference here is that a) it is all upfront and b) the mfg can make an informed decision - is this worth it.

If you need store / day detail on sales because you are running promos and in-store marketing vs just being a low cost volume seller - all affect your view of this.

Finally, in grocery retail - once you have the order and deliver, you DO get paid regardless of whether product sells. This is an important positive even selling through Target in some cases especially with more perishable goods. Amazon as a seller you can't plan as well - their alog or someone else paying for promo could cut your demand in half overnight.

Additionally retail stores actually drive demand / discover ability when they purchase your product in a way amazon often does not.

> The difference here is that a) it is all upfront and b) the mfg can make an informed decision - is this worth it.

You sign the same deal when you sell on Amazon, probably even signing away more rights. I'm not sure I haven't read the full EULA when you sign up to sell.

> Amazon as a seller you can't plan as well - their alog or someone else paying for promo could cut your demand in half overnight.

This is about the only thing you've said I agree with. But it's not due to lack of data, it's due to barrier to entry with retail sales you have less competition. Right for the wrong reason here.

> Additionally retail stores actually drive demand / discover ability when they purchase your product in a way amazon often does not.

Amazon drives way WAY more discoverability than any retailer.

Pretty much your entire argument contradicts real world experience, common sense, and actual reality from what I know of the situation. I can tell you for a fact your assertion that 'Amazon doesn't do this' everything you're saying is 100% false.

Amazon drives way WAY more discoverability than any retailer.

This is completely false. Amazon provides significantly less discoverability than a retailer. With a retailer, you get a product that actually shows up in front of people's eyeballs, and the ability to provide in-store promotions to attract customers, and, most crucially, the store lets you know how the promotions perform. A small minority of retailers make you pay for this data, but most don't because they want products to sell through. Many stores will even work with new brands to promote their products, such as (temporary) eye-level product placement, end-of-aisle placement, special displays, etc.

Source: Before going in-house I used to rep manufacturers of all sizes from startups to billion-dollar behemoths selling to major, regional, and local retail chains. Grocery stores are the best at working with brands (but also the fastest to drop products that don't sell), Target is about average, and Walmart was the worst at the time though I hear they've gotten better.

As a non shlock product seller you are much more comfortable in local retail I think? I just thought retail was easier to actually talk to real people.

The schlock sellers I think are more expert in the amazon game (image / product swapouts and seller targeting, review spiking games, competitor flag and return / hazard attacks etc). So much BS and so little real recourse - the scale of marketplace must be nuts.

Tim - have you actually ever reped / managed distribution into retail at the moderate scale at least?

Do you have a reasonably high volume ($1M+ sales) amazon account to compare to?

I just ask because for such strong opinions "everything you're saying is 100% false" you don't seem like you have actually worked with businesses in this way.

Beleive it or not, you can actually talk to real human beings at your local retail stores. And yes, you can talk to real people at amazon, but if issue is outside their box (on seller side) you get little mercy. If inside box some of the treatment is amazing (amazon payments for goods they show as lost by them as a sale with no return risk)

> Finally, in grocery retail - once you have the order and deliver, you DO get paid regardless of whether product sells.

It's been quite a long time since I worked in the grocery business, but I don't think this is accurate. A lot of vendors stock their products themselves or use food brokers that do it, and they are on the hook for expired and returned product. And there was a shitload of bribery and corruption happening to steal shelf space and end unit space from competitors. It's a surprisingly cut throat business.

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