Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

I have stopped reading what Vivek writes. It almost feels like he's writing inflammatory articles just to keep his name in print.

I came to this country (US) more than 20 years ago. The I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) were as big dicks then as they are now. Nothing has changed. It's just plain old government bureaucracy; but in this instance, their clients can't vote either, so there's no fear of a backlash.

And yet, despite the INS's dickitude, the country churns out startups like crazy.

Why did the founder of Chatroulette move here, instead of China or India? I'll give you why: pound for pound, it is way easier to come to America, register your startup and get rolling than in any other country, bar none. (Aside: do read DeSoto's "The Mystery of Capital" if you get a chance).

Heck, why is Vivek Wadhwa in this country? Why isn't he in India, if things are so great there? I'll tell you why: because when all is said and done, there is NO country on earth as welcoming and safe for immigrants as the USA, bar none.

I have friends who've gone back to India. Most of them went for a variety of reasons; chiefly among them being family.

And I also know some who went back because their H1B visas expired; but you know what? It is good to see that. Just like seeds from a flower spread far and wide with the wind, I hope the seeds of entrepreneurship spread far and wide; the world needs more entrepreneurs. Silicon Valley has more than enough.

I came to the US 20 years ago too and in my experience, the wait-times are nothing like what my employees from Indian and China face. I got a PhD in 6 years, then applied for a GC 2 years into my job and got my GC within 1 year. The total time was 9 years, which while long was nothing compared to the mess today. Fast forward to today. We have PhDs from Stanford and MIT whose application has been stuck since 2005, meaning even if you adjust for the 6+2 = 8 years to apply, the total time to GC will end up being more than 15-16 years at least.

I should point out that the system specifically disadvantages Indians and Chinese relative to say Mexicans, Canadians and everyone else. This coincides with an increasing level of opportunity in these countries relative to 1991 in India. To compare the two is making a fact-free argument, since even in a rational scenario, the relative attractiveness of the US has diminished over time.

I think asking that Vivek return to India is an unnecessary ad-hominem attack. There are many reasons that people choose to stay here including personal ones (wife, kids, etc. don't want to go back) not all of which are driven by relative opportunity.

Wouldn't you have preferred to get your greencard in 2 or 3 years instead of 11? I know it would have made my life quite a bit easier as a co-founder. I would have started up 4 years earlier.

The argument is not (yet) about whether the U.S. is a better place to start a startup than India or China. It clearly is. The argument is about whether it is worth America's while to make it easier for immigrants to start startups. It's hard to argue that for the right definition of a startup (legal, with a real chance of making money, scalable) it wouldn't be in America's interests to make it easier. In the worst case there's an immigrant who is not competing for "scarce jobs", in the best case he/she is creating jobs.*

*O.K. I cheated - in the worst case fears of those against this idea, you have a non-productive individual immigrating here on the pretext of a startup and doing nothing/leeching off of society etc, but if you find a good enough 'qualifier' (e.g. Grad degree from the U.S. and/or V.C. investment a la startup visa) this kind of thing can be minimized to where it approaches zero.

Incorrect - Things HAVE changed.

India did NOT have the same appreciation for tech 20 years ago. Today it does.

Friends who are 20-25 are coming back here and setting up clones of workable ideas. They are learning what needs to be done and what the opportunity is over here. They KNOW what good code is, they know what high quality means, and they ARE building it here again. They will build it from scratch if they have to.

America did NOT compete for talent like it has to now. Yes the seeds of entrepreneurship will spread far and wide. The topic at hand is to make them bloom in America.

>I came to this country (US) more than 20 years ago. The I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) were as big dicks then as they are now.

Okay... so...? Did you wait 10 years for a Green Card while in immigration limbo? Do you even know the difference between then and now?

>And yet, despite the INS's dickitude, the country churns out startups like crazy.

So enough is enough? Will more hurt, esp with 10% unemployment? Maybe we should shutdown some VCs as well, since there are enough startups.

AFAIK the Chatroulette founder was on a temp visa and was exploring options for a longer term visa. Can you reference how he 'moved' here?

>And I also know some who went back because their H1B visas expired; but you know what? It is good to see that. Just like seeds from a flower spread far and wide with the wind, I hope the seeds of entrepreneurship spread far and wide; the worlds needs more entrepreneurs. Silicon Valley has more than enough.

Your argument doesn't make sense. According to you the US/Silicon Valley is the best place to breed startups.. but you want the potential founders to go elsewhere where they might not have the best chances. Does not compute.

He's saying two things:

First, that it's hard to take seriously the idea that inept immigration policies are creating a real threat to the US, because it's still so far ahead of the curve on entrepreneurship.

Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries. It would be a good thing for the world if there was more entrepeneurship everywhere, not just where there is the least friction to practicing it.

>Secondly, that it's not a human tragedy that people are being forced by circumstances to leave the US, because those people are likely to start companies in their home countries.

Restrictions on a work visa holder:

1) Your spouse cannot work at all unless she qualifies and obtains a specialized H1 herself/himself 2) If you get fired on a Friday, you're technically out of status from a legal point from Saturday and must leave immediately regardless of spouse,rent leases, homes, cars, pets, kids, kids' schools, personal property etc. 3) You and your spouse and kids cannot have any supplemental active income. This rules out selling photographs on stock photo sites, phone apps, etc. You can basically do nothing productive that earns money outside your job. 4) If you move to a different job or even change roles, you have to reapply for the Green Card process from the scratch. Expect multiyear delays just to get back to where you were. 5) If you or your spouse wants to visit your home country or travel outside the country, expect to get stuck there for months for no good reasons. It has become so bad that immigration lawyers are advising not to travel internationally except for emergencies. You're basically stuck in the country.

See one example:

Consulate Location - MUMBAI Interview Date - 26 AUGUST 2010 Docs asked? - None Docs submitted? None Docs submitted Date - N/A Email Receipt Date - NOV 23, 2010 Passport Submission Date - same day as that of interview Passport Stamped/Received Date - RECEIVED WITHOUT STAMPING AFTER 15 DAYS

RECEIVED 2ND EMAIL ON DEC 15, 2010 TO SUBMIT PASSPORT

AGAIN RECEIVED MY PASSPORT WITHOUT STAMPING

Waiting Since (in calendar days) - 170 DAYS

Petition Details:

Employer Type - AMERICAN , NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION Employer Size - more than 5,000 Assignment Type - DIRECT I-797 Approval Date - 01-JULY 2010

6) Processing of applications takes forever. You can be stuck without a driving license(no renewal) in some states while your extension is pending. Imagine having to go to work with no driving license. Paying an extra $1225 in no-delay fees can speed up the process in a few cases.

Edit:

7) Taxes: You get to pay all the taxes including Social Security and Medicare(employers also have to match this) and state unemployment taxes(one won't see a cent of this because one is supposed to leave as soon as they're unemployed).

There was a recent bill that increased the fee of some type of work visa applications by $2000 to fund... wait for it... the Mexican border security!

> Okay... so...? Did you wait 10 years for a Green Card while in immigration limbo? Do you even know the difference between then and now?

I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

> So enough is enough? Will more hurt, esp with 10% unemployment? Maybe we should shutdown some VCs as well, since there are enough startups.

You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

> Your argument doesn't make sense. According to you the US/Silicon Valley is the best place to breed startups.. but you want the potential founders to go elsewhere where they might not have the best chances. Does not compute.

It "does not compute" because you're not reading, just responding. I'm not saying that the founders should "go somewhere else". I'm saying that if they do choose to "go somewhere else", then that is not a bad thing; in fact, it has a lot of positive aspects to it. SV will be just fine.

>I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

>You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

Were startups so easy to found 20 years ago? Were there mobile apps that one can develop in part time?

Vivek is trying to lobby for a better future. Just because people used to walk uphill both ways in snow to school in the past then doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix it atleast now.

>I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

Are you saying that just because people faced hardship earlier, it shouldn't be made easier now? If anything, the numbers show that MORE people are getting affected by the policies and MORE potential startups are getting nipped in the bud.

>You need to comprehend before responding. The immigration system was as broken 20 years ago as it is today. During boom times it's broken; during bust times it is broken. During the dot-com boom, it was broken, and yet the dot-com boom still happened. It is a constant; you just route around it.

I don't see any reason given for not fixing the system except handwaving here. Let me quote the article here:

>Unlike a lot of problems facing our country, this one is easy to fix. We just need to increase the numbers of permanent-resident visas available for those trapped in “immigration limbo”. And we should create a Startup Visa that is more inclusive than the VC/Super Angel bill that is being proposed. This may give the economy a significant boost at no cost to taxpayers.

What are your arguments against that paragraph?

It is like someone in the 1920s arguing against women's suffrage. 'Hey, we never had the right to vote, but we always still influenced politics by working around it. There are some positive aspects to not having the right to vote. Lets not support it.'

You seem to be arguing two orthogonal points here.

On the one hand, you're saying that America's future will suffer dire consequences if the immigration system is not fixed.

On the other hand, you're saying it is such a hardship that people have to go back when their visas expire, things are tough for immigrants, etc.

Just step back a little and think rationally a little. If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

Once again: in the 20 years I've observed the system, it is as broken as ever. And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom.

>On the one hand, you're saying that America's future will suffer dire consequences if the immigration system is not fixed.

Not exactly, but it will definitely help if it is fixed.

>On the other hand, you're saying it is such a hardship that people have to go back when their visas expire, things are tough for immigrants, etc.

>Just step back a little and think rationally a little. If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

>Once again: in the 20 years I've observed the system, it is as broken as ever. And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom.

All those immigrants can be easily turned into potential startup founders by increasing the permanent visa numbers. Many of them are highly educated and experienced. More startups = More potential good for the economy. What is your argument against this?

cooldeal's criticism is that your world view is binary; there is no "better" or "worse", only "broken" and "just dandy".

The problem argued is that the system prevents people from starting a business in the U.S. - something a "rational" person who is able to "comprehend" wouldn't conflate with everyone being prevented from starting a business.

The system could be better. That's hardly a controversial statement.

One of the biggest problem in this environment is the survivorship bias.

His worldview isn't binary. He's merely providing some perspective by pointing out the system has been similarly broken for a while and apparently startups have still been starting up all the while.

As a non-American without Green Card, I still think the startup visa is dubious. People who really want to do software startups in the US have been doing it for a while (typical example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Kahn ). I strongly doubt the US government (or board of VCs etc) will be able to predict success when deciding who should get the startup visas and the employment argument isn't convincing. Reddit, YC's most successful company, employs about 4 people I think?

>> And during these 20 years, we've been through the Biotech boom, Internet boom, and are on the verge of another boom

Are you missing the possibility that there might have been more/better booms and outcomes if immigration laws were not as fucked up?

I'd like to call you out on something my gut tells me.

IMHO, you come across to me as someone who's bitter. You're bitter that it took you 11 years to get your green card, therefore all these other younger kids shouldn't have an easier time than you, because you paid your "dues" (from your perspective).

I disagree that immigration is worse now because of demand, I think it's largely to do with 9/11.

I think you're inherently misguided that a broken process should remain broken - just beause. I'm really disappointed with your sentiment, given that you yourself are an immigrant and you know how painful this process is. Wake up, and think of others - not just of yourself.

Good day.

> If things are so bad, then why _are_ people trying so hard to get in? Do you see long lines outside the Chinese embassy? The Indian embassy?

I really, really hate this line of argument. "Oh the US is so great that everyone wants to be here! Do you see these kind of lines to get into North Korea?", well obviously not. I think you'll find similar lines to get into western Europe though. Why do you feel compelled to compare the US to 3rd world countries?

I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here.

The INS doesn't exist any more, and that's the least of the changes. It is not a simple issue of supply and demand, and while I don't want to minimize the headaches you went through 20 years ago, the legal landscape has changed considerably since then.

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