Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

618 pointsfickleycurious262 comments

I have realized that I easily give up when I face a hard problem. This is hurting my career prospects. I have been thinking and it may have become an issue because I grew up in a high pressure environment, where a lot is expected from you. How do I change myself ? I have observed that a lot of times I have a vague idea of a problem I am trying to solve but I don't put in the effort to nail it down. This affects my confidence and I don't want to lead whenever I get an opportunity. How do I get out of this habit ?

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"Lazy" is just another way of saying that you're not doing something somebody else thinks you should be doing. Nobody is lazy at playing video games or eating a favorite food. If you like doing it, you do it. You can't be lazy. You can only be lazy in some kind of context where you or others judge you and find you wanting.

So two pieces of advice. First, stop judging so much. Do what you love doing and don't feel the least bit guilty about it. Second, find things you love doing that generally make you a better person over time and do those things. This might require trying out new things every weekend for a while. Once again, don't judge yourself; instead find things you truly love that you feel are also good for you. There are plenty of these things for everybody, and each person has his own mix. Never feel like you have to have somebody else's.

A lot of commenters here are using the mountain metaphor. I'd like to say the same thing a different way. Stop being so goal focused and instead become habit focused. You don't want to accomplish some big goal, all you want to do is do fun stuff that makes you a better person. As a result of that, you'll probably accomplish some cool goals. But you'd never do that if you started from zero and tried to guilt yourself into striving towards some goal you couldn't care less about.

Habits are easy to change. The trick is to try new things and start with really, really small changes. Most of life is Zen anyway. You either enjoy doing things and die or you suffer and die. It's your choice.

> Habits are easy to change.

I agree that habits are key to success, but I've also found that habits are extremely hard to change. That's why they are so powerful. Once you're in a habbit of doing something it's very hard to fall off that track. This goes both ways too, because once you have a bad habbit, life can get miserable.

I used to think exactly the same thing. I found in my own experience that this was because I was thinking of habits in too broad of terms. The trick was thinking of very small habit changes, not huge ones.

I found this book interesting, "Tiny Habits". The author does a much better job of explaining this than I probably can.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0358003326/

(Also note that one of the common definitions of addiction is where you want to do things but cannot because of some habitual behavior. Only you can judge whether that's the case or not, but I would think that's a different type of problem than regular habits)

> Habits are easy to change

The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too heavy to be broken.

> Nobody is lazy at playing video games or eating a favorite food

Have you met me ?

> stop judging so much

IMO this is the best advice here. The root issue seems to be anxiety, self-love, and judgment.

if your experience of love as a child was conditioned on performance metrics, then any time you go to solve a problem you have to deal with a whole ocean of emotion and trauma that others don't have to deal with.

It will take some work to understand and get past it, and my advice would be not to go it alone. Perhaps find a professional therapist who can help to get started.

This!

When we are physically ill or have an acheing tooth, we seek help from professionals and I bet unless it's a chronic disease, these professionals always have a way of treating it by:

1) Doing a check up,

2) Applying a short term solution (comforting medication, cleaning the infection etc),

3) Giving good advice for long term well-being.

The mind deserves the same level of attention and care. We don't need to wait for a crippling depression to finally act. Depression is the disease of not being able to act afterall.

Living a normal life itself is an enough reason to see a therapist.

I don't believe a god or participate in any religion. But I admit that there was a time when more people went to see their religious community leaders to seek help, even for very basic problems. That was a kind of proto-therapy at its infancy. We lost that with modern civilization and contemporary psychology is still considered a luxury instead of a necessity.

> Nobody is lazy at playing video games or eating a favorite food.

I cannot disagree more. You can be lazy about something that brings enjoyment. Laziness is stagnation without regard for enjoyment or perceptions. In other words it is the opposite of ambition or progression. For example you can enjoy playing video games and yet become lazy about it through a lack of effort in that a decline of related goals does not necessarily translate into lower interest or participation.

Spinning the subject into something entirely unrelated, such as sensitivity or self-esteem, completely misses the point and could actually be really harmful advise. If you wish to focus upon or improve enjoyment, self-esteem, or emotional well being the do so with great deliberation but not because you have confused those with effort.

—-

Think of mental laziness as a lack of mental exercise. Mental exercise, such as tough decisions, actually burn more calories and impact your overall physiology. The only way to fight mental laziness is to increase your own self awareness with a goal for self improvement over time, like working out the rest of your body. Some helpful tools are reminders, taking notes, reviewing prior decisions, and advice from other people.

To fight mental laziness I recommend focusing on these criteria:

* criticality - don’t be afraid to ask questions and seek greater learning

* originality - try something new. A new approach may require a far lower effort and yet may cause anxiety. Confront and appreciate that anxiety directly as part your increased self-awareness

* empathy - empathy is the cognitive exercise of perceiving the situations of other people. Do not confuse it for sympathy, the process of sharing an emotional response. Empathy requires deliberate effort and often does not result in sympathetic state

* deliberation - own your decisions. Take credit for all decisions without fear. If you are afraid to associate a decision with your reputation then somebody will make the decision for you. It is better to make a wrong decision early than to put that decision off to a future time. A wrong decision in the short term results in learning that can result in corrective decisions that would otherwise be absent.

The way I view it, Daniel's point was to focus less on what other people expect of you, and to think less in ways like 'will this help me progress in my career'. Both are examples of extrinsic motivation.

Instead, reframing your goals in terms of serving an intrinsic goal (e.g. 'I do this because it is interesting', or 'I do this because it helps my community') has been shown experimentally to improve longer term persistence at achieving those goals [0].

[0] https://lirias.kuleuven.be/retrieve/517626

They shifted the conversation away from mental laziness to conformity and then provided a remedy that cures neither serving as a distraction from the subject at hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity

Very good point. You can be ambitious playing video games (e.g. put a lot of practice into it, get to the top of the ladder in a competitive game or organize a big clan/guild/tournament) or lazy playing video games (download some free to play game or "idle" game and just click away without putting mental effort in it).

And from personal experience, people who are ambitious in video games are mostly able to transfer that ambition to other areas of life. There was even a paper [1] that compares managing a successful WoW raid guild to managing a company. I had many meetings with both, guild/raid leaders and managers of multinational companies and would confirm that many personality traits are similar.

However, the average gamer probably tends a bit more to the "lazy" side of things but probably the area of application (e.g. job/computer games) is not the right category to explore/define mental laziness.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228773214_Leadershi...

I read the top comment and I was like, WOW - I never thought of it that way, this is it! But then I read your reply to the top comment and again I was like: WOW - I never thought of it that way, this is it!

I'm going to read some of the other comments as well. I must confess, I'm a little bit scared now.

I think you've outlined an excellent framework/technique to self improvement -- not dissimilar to the Carol Dweck's 'Growth Mindset'.

However, I think it's very likely GP has a much more pernicious problem. That is, he is afraid to make mistakes.

The sentence that highlights this for me is -- "I have realized that I easily give up when I face a hard problem."

If you're afraid of making mistakes, you won't be willing to ask questions (in case it makes you look stupid). And, you won't be willing to try something new (because learning something new leads to mistakes).

This fear of making mistakes is often rooted in an extrinsic desire to be perfect. And, based on GP's description, this desire likely came from his demanding upbringing (read: parents).

GP, I highly recommend Carol Dweck's book 'The Growth Mindset'. It's not just OK to make mistakes -- it's often a GOOD thing because it means you're on the path of progress.

> I highly recommend Carol Dweck's book 'The Growth Mindset'.

Is this another one of those research findings that propagated into a book but failed to survive peer replication?

This sounds like uncertainty avoidance. Normally that term is applied to social groups opposed to individuals, but I am going to use it here because it describes the psychology behind the kind of fear you speak to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_avoidance

I suspect for some persons perfectionism is a problem, but the frequency with which mental laziness occurs and the rarity with which perfectionism occurs suggests there are different or multiple motivating factors. Perhaps a common answer is that many people are unknowingly willing to sacrifice flexibility and freedom for familiarity and predictability. This is even evidenced by how people write software.

It's also true though that sometimes laziness can drive ambition. Maybe you come across something that's complex and a pain to do, so you create a better, simpler way to do it. It may be a progression in another, sometimes better direction that other people at first glance might consider 'lazy'.

> If you are afraid to associate a decision with your reputation then somebody will make the decision for you. It is better to make a wrong decision early than to put that decision off to a future time. A wrong decision in the short term results in learning that can result in corrective decisions that would otherwise be absent.

While I agree with everything else you said, I can't disagree with this more.

If someone else is more qualified or better able to make a more informed decision than you are, then let them! Why worry about whether it was you or someone else who made the decision, when the real focus should be on maximizing the right decisions.

Furthermore, how do you know that a wrong decision early is better than putting a decision off until a future time? While I can think of some cases where this is true, I can also think of a LOT of cases where this is absolutely untrue. Some wrong decisions can be very damaging and irreversible. There are also many decisions that don't affect anyone adversely the later they're made up until some ultimate deadline (like turning in homework when you're younger, or filing applications for an RFQ, or many other similar things); the only reason to finalize decisions for these kinds of things earlier than necessary is to ease your own cognitive overhead rather than actually being better for anyone else.

The hard part about making decisions often isn't just the decision itself, but also in understanding the risks and trade-offs of making a potentially wrong decision now, versus making a better informed decision at a later time, and deciding which is the better approach for any given decision that needs to be made.

> If someone else is more qualified or better able to make a more informed decision than you are, then let them!

That is called delegation of responsibility. If you are not qualified to make a certain professional decision or if such a decision exceeds your delegated responsibility then you need to bring somebody else in, possibly a supervisor. That consideration is itself a decision and it should not be delayed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegation

> Furthermore, how do you know that a wrong decision early is better than putting a decision off until a future time?

Exactly. You have no idea until you can determine the result. If you fail early and have the awareness to recognize that failure you are in a far stronger position for all forthcoming decisions. If you wait to make that decision all the time between now then remains an unknown and you also aren't completing any resulting actions. So not only does risk increase but your productivity proportionally decreases.

It makes sense to wait on a decision only when that decision is both critical and costly and even then the only advantage on waiting is to perform further investigation. There is no advantage in hesitation only for the sake of hesitation, because then you are allowing external factors to influence the conditions away from what you currently know.

> The hard part about making decisions often isn't just the decision itself, but also in understanding the risks and trade-offs of making a potentially wrong decision now

This isn't something that software developers are well equipped for. Other industries have specific processes and criteria for evaluating risk in a uniform and standard way as well as the processes to apply the proper controls. These are basic trade practices that are often affirmed through education and licensing with bodies of enforcement. Software, on the other hand, does not have a commonly recognized ethics enforcement/evaluation body to define these trade practices. In practice most of this is outsourced to security professionals, for example people holding one of the various ISC2 certifications: https://www.isc2.org/ethics/

> That is called delegation of responsibility. If you are not qualified to make a certain professional decision or if such a decision exceeds your delegated responsibility then you need to bring somebody else in, possibly a supervisor.

Delegation more often happens toward subordinates than supervisors, but I don't see how that's relevant. My response here was to your statement that, "If you are afraid to associate a decision with your reputation then somebody will make the decision for you." I was pointing out that someone else making the decision for you isn't necessarily a bad thing as you seemed to be implying.

> That consideration is itself a decision and it should not be delayed.

You seem to be arguing here just for the sake of arguing, even if it means arguing against your original point. By the same logic you're using here, the decision to procrastinate can itself also be a decision, which is actually the entire point of my post.

> Exactly. You have no idea until you can determine the result. If you fail early and have the awareness to recognize that failure you are in a far stronger position for all forthcoming decisions. If you wait to make that decision all the time between now then remains an unknown and you also aren't completing any resulting actions. So not only does risk increase but your productivity proportionally decreases.

Your reasoning seems to rely on the premise that you can only learn by making a decision, which isn't true at all. You can also learn by research, which you have more time to do by delaying a decision. Even without research, there are many things you can learn just by allowing more time to pass and more events to unfold without any deliberate action on your part.

An example of this could be something like submitting an application that's ready today for an RFQ from a large potential customer that isn't due for another month. Then, 2 weeks from now you find out from an acquaintance who used to work for that customer that they always valued some other piece of information being included in the RFQ submissions they review. I can't tell you how many times I've run into similar situations, and procrastinating improved the quality of the final result.

Similarly, most of the time, you'll only ever have more information available to make decisions the longer you wait, not less.

> It makes sense to wait on a decision only when that decision is both critical and costly and even then the only advantage on waiting is to perform further investigation. There is no advantage in hesitation only for the sake of hesitation, because then you are allowing external factors to influence the conditions away from what you currently know.

You're arbitrarily asserting here that external factors can only influence the conditions away from what you currently know. External factors can also influence conditions toward what you currently know. Furthermore, the longer you wait, the more you'll know, which means the more informed your decisions will be.

> This isn't something that software developers are well equipped for. Other industries have specific processes and criteria for evaluating risk in a uniform and standard way as well as the processes to apply the proper controls. These are basic trade practices that are often affirmed through education and licensing with bodies of enforcement. Software, on the other hand, does not have a commonly recognized ethics enforcement/evaluation body to define these trade practices. In practice most of this is outsourced to security professionals, for example people holding one of the various ISC2 certifications: https://www.isc2.org/ethics/

I have know idea what point you're trying to make here or how it's at all relevant.

At the end of the day, I've had enough good decisions come as a result of waiting to make them when I can to know that what you're prescribing isn't a universal truth, which was the point I was trying to make clear.

I've also had plenty decisions turn out to be the wrong decisions, which I would have known if I'd waited another day or two to make them, further reinforcing that quick decisions aren't always better than delayed decisions. Again, the hard part is figuring out when it's better to make a quick decision and when it isn't.

> Delegation more often happens toward subordinates than supervisors

When a subordinate lacks sufficient delegated responsibility they need to call in a supervisor. Delegation flows downward from an authority. When the delegated responsibility is exceeded the authority needs to be involved.

> Similarly, most of the time, you'll only ever have more information available to make decisions the longer you wait, not less.

In my experience that is a commonly believed blanket assumption that rarely occurs in practice. Risks tend to increase over time in the absence of controls enforcement.

> Your reasoning seems to rely on the premise that you can only learn by making a decision, which isn't true at all.

There is a lot of psychology on this. Yes, you can learn some things from books, but the ability to apply what you learn almost entirely takes practice and repetition. There is a world of difference between reading a right answer from a reference and formulating that right answer as a spontaneously novelty from experience. I am not discounting the value of education, but you would never hire a medical doctor who has never touched a scalpel or a trial lawyer who has never performed at trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_learning

> Furthermore, the longer you wait, the more you'll know, which means the more informed your decisions will be.

This is a logical fallacy called reaffirming the consequent. You cannot know if a decision will be more well informed by waiting unless you have waited and reflected upon that delayed decision. This is a reckless line of thinking since a given risk profile with change during that period of waiting regardless of whether the assertion holds true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

> I have know idea what point you're trying to make here

Assuming risks are an unchanging constant and that the only thing that changes is the information you receive and also assuming there is never cost associated with a delay then yes it would make sense to procrastinate on many decisions, as much as possible, in the hope you will become supremely well informed, but this is extremely unrealistic.

> isn't a universal truth

Its a matter of making better decisions and reducing risk over time. Its not about universal truths. That's what religion is for.

> Delegation flows downward from an authority.

Yes, exactly. You originally described delegation as flowing upward toward authority (so the opposite) when you said, "That is called delegation of responsibility. If you are not qualified to make a certain professional decision or if such a decision exceeds your delegated responsibility then you need to bring somebody else in, possibly a supervisor."

> In my experience that is a commonly believed blanket assumption that rarely occurs in practice. Risks tend to increase over time in the absence of controls enforcement.

Agree to disagree then. I've found that this occurs frequently in practice. I've already given examples.

> I am not discounting the value of education, but you would never hire a medical doctor who has never touched a scalpel or a trial lawyer who has never performed at trial.

In typical hospital settings, patients are assigned to doctors, and they can have little experience; it's called residency. Secondly, are you saying you'd rather work with a doctor with no education than one with no experience? There is a reason that doctors and attorneys with little experience are allowed to practice, but doctors and attorneys with little education are not.

This does not even include the fact that doctors and attorneys are _constantly_ reading and researching from studies (for diseases and treatments) and case law (for precedents), respectively, for which they have little to no experience.

> This is a logical fallacy called reaffirming the consequent.

No, it's not. What I said has nothing to do with reaffirming the consequent. I don't even know how to respond to this non-sequitur.

> You cannot know if a decision will be more well informed by waiting unless you have waited and reflected upon that delayed decision.

Yes I can, because I'm constantly learning. At any given point in time, I have more information than I did at any prior point in time. So, everything is always more informed the longer I wait. How much more well informed, or how relevant the additional information varies.

> This is a reckless line of thinking since a given risk profile with change during that period of waiting regardless of whether the assertion holds true.

Reckless means with a lack of caution or consideration for consequences. My original response concluded with, "The hard part about making decisions often isn't just the decision itself, but also in understanding the risks and trade-offs of making a potentially wrong decision now, versus making a better informed decision at a later time, and deciding which is the better approach for any given decision that needs to be made."

I would argue your advice is more reckless, since it's advocating less critical thought on a per-decision basis by prescribing a one-size-fits-all methodology for decision making in your original statement that, "It is better to make a wrong decision early than to put that decision off to a future time."

> Assuming risks are an unchanging constant and that the only thing that changes is the information you receive and also assuming there is never cost associated with a delay then yes it would make sense to procrastinate on many decisions, as much as possible, in the hope you will become supremely well informed, but this is extremely unrealistic.

Whether risks are constant or variable doesn't change whether or not a decision should be made quickly or delayed, so I'm not sure what you're saying here. Constant high risks could mean a quick decision is better, while constant low risks could mean a delayed decision is better. Likewise increasing risk could mean a quick decision is better, while decreasing risk could mean a delayed decision is better. Either scenario could go either way, which is exactly why my original point was that you should evaluate on a per-decision basis which is actually better, instead of following a dogma that one is always better than the other.

I also already gave examples where delayed decisions made sense, and they did not involve any of the assumptions you claim to be requirements for a delayed decision to make sense. There doesn't need to be no cost, there can be little cost. You don't need to be supremely well informed, you can just be better informed.

Yes, your reductio ad absurdum argument (speaking of logical fallacies) would be extremely unrealistic as you pointed out. Thankfully, none of those things are necessary for a delayed decision to potentially be better than a quick decision.

> Its a matter of making better decisions and reducing risk over time. Its not about universal truths. That's what religion is for.

The one-size-fits-all prescription to decision making in this original statement is the universal truth I was objecting to:

> It is better to make a wrong decision early than to put that decision off to a future time.

I was pointing out that this isn't always true (i.e. not a universal truth).

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - Jeff Bridges in the Big Lebowski

> "Lazy" is just another way of saying that you're not doing something somebody else thinks you should be doing.

"Lazy" can also be a way of saying you're not doing something _YOU_ think you should be doing.

I agree that other people calling you "lazy" is a projection of _their_ priorities, but the term is also applicable in you describing _yourself_.

> If you like doing it, you do it.

This attitude seems to overlook that there can be a tension between present and future fulfilment. There are things you can do (or avoid doing) now that will make your life a lot less enjoyable later on. Activities that 'make you a better person over time' often require effort, discomfort, or sacrifice of some kind in the present (exercising, studying, therapy, etc...).

I don't think it is a good idea to maximise pleasure in the present - at least not at the expense of future pleasure - but to maximise the total pleasure you get out of your life, which will often mean doing something right now that you don't find intrinsically rewarding.

IMHO, this relates to your own personal way of attributing value.

Future happiness holds more value for you personally for whatever reason - this is great! i am happy for you.

an alternative view point which is also sometimes correct is that future happiness holds zero value as you may never get it.

I don't know whats really going on but i basically agree that laziness is not a thing. whether its explained by different weighting of future values or different weighting of the value of doing nothing (also highly rewarding) i think is a moot point.

The advice given by the original comment to me holds true regardless. Also the way it is stated is especially important (as i think anyone who has benefited from such advice would see): step 1: beating yourself up doesn't work, you need a logical argument against that to help your brain adjust, step 2: find a way into doing things without a set end goal in mind, this is to learn the pleasure of doing the thing, not getting to the goal.. that way you are triggering different value / reward calculations in the brain.

Please note i firmly believe there is no one explanation that will work for everyone, you have to factor in their view points and biases while finding the specific language that will fire the right neurons for that person... we are all hear to share perspectives in the hope that they are of value to someone else.

Any advice on finding a working logical argument? I find myself stuck in unhelpful loops sometimes i.e. Do I enjoy my job? Do I have a sense of purpose in my job?

I realise the answer will be personal and only I can provide it but I'm consistently failing and it's impacting my mood

Thank you so much for sharing this. A lot of people will knee-jerk react with "push, push, you're worthless, push" and I have deep appreciation for this wiser attitude.

Sadly I am lazy about playing video games. Have a baseball sim open for a week but I keep choosing a nap.

I had a similar problem where the the bigger / the more complex the task in front of me was, the more my brain resisted to getting started and the more i procrasitnated.

I came up with a fundamentally "agile" solution: break the problems down into smaller tasks until the first task is too small to offer resistance.

E.g. rather than "write architecture specification", start with "outline the heads for architecture spec" and then maybe "draw rough sketch of architecture on paper" and then maybe "write introduction".

Almost everything in my to do list these days can be executed in under 10 minutes. As a bonus, it gives you the dopamine hit / satisfaction of watching a stead stream of items moving from 'todo' to 'done' state on a daily basis.

I don’t know what the true source is but I always enjoyed this little intro to a song by The White Stripes:

“When problems overwhelm us, and sadness smothers us, where do we find the will and the courage to continue?

Well, the answer may come in the caring voice of a friend, a chance encounter with a book, or from a personal faith. For Janet help came from her faith, but it also came from a squirrel. Shortly after her divorce, Janet lost her father, then she lost her job. She had mounting money problems.

But Janet not only survived, she worked her way out of despondency and now she says, life is good again. How could this happen?

She told me that late one Autumn day when she was at her lowest she watched a squirrel storing up nuts for the winter, one at a time he would take them to the nest.

And she thought, if that squirrel can take care of himself with the harsh winter coming along, then so can I. Once I broke my problems into small pieces I was able to carry them, just like those acorns, one at a time.”

— “Little Acorns” by The White Stripes

BE LIKE THE SQUIRREL GIRL BE LIKE THE SQUIRREL!

That song theached me this way of overcoming issues and always comes back to my mind when splitting problems <3

Did Jack never actually watch squirrels? They don't gather their nuts into a nest, they cache them individually by burying them in random places and remembering the locations.

A therapist colleague used a different metaphor.

Patient: "I'm overwhelmed by (task) and can't get going."

Therapist "Do you know how to eat an elephant?"

Patient: "Uh... No?"

Therapist: "One bite at a time."

Very good advice, additionally, I would build habits that help you get things accomplished.

For example, get up early every day, get ready and go directly to an area where the only thing you do is work on your tasks and you force yourself to accomplish at least a task while you are there. It's amazing how your point of view changes once you don't have to think about what you will do next and when you will do it.

“Eighty percent of success is showing up,” is absolutely true. Especially, if you don't have to think about it.

For me, the #1 thing was not going out drinking. I used to go out and consume alcohol 3-4 times per week and I had no idea what an energy drain it was until I stopped.

It's been a whole new world since then.

I’m 37, I’ve had 1 year in my life around 33 where I went out to have beers in the evenings, 3-4 times a week. I never fully recovered my work ability.

I created a dedicated linux user for remote work. Other than the fact that I do not have to install the same software twice its almost like owning two computers that are isolated from each other.

I had a similar issue and the fix for me was the system "Getting Things Done". The biggest paradigm change from it was, "You can't work on projects. You can only work on actions related to projects."

Came to this thread to say: The GTD methodology talks specifically about breaking tasks down, and in fact is the first place I even came across the idea of breaking things down as a way to overcome procrastination.

Really great stuff

Same. I open my favorite moleskin A4 5mm graph notebook (graph paper is the only correct paper for notebooks btw), which is a treat to write on, I grab my favorite pen and start listing the tiniest, smallest steps I can make towards the solution.

Like "Open IDE and two terminals and point terminals to correct branch".

First, I enjoy the process - moleskin + favorite pen. Second, my brain started to think about the task. Third, I starting to get into flow state". Usually I jot down like a dozen of those steps or so and I'm pretty deep in the flow by then.

I tried notebooks, but my writing is poor and I don't enjoy it. I usually stick with just opening a text document and writing bulletpoints. I can express myself a lot faster as well that way. Mind you I probably write too much thanks to being a pretty fast typist.

I'm a fast typist too (about 600CPM) but I can't draw as fast on a computer as I can on a piece of paper. To me, paper still beats a computer for the initial 'idea' gathering because I like to just write anywhere on the paper and connect lines, circle important things, etc..

A computer is a great tool for documenting important things that I need to keep, but for scheduling my day I just use a notebook. I can browse through them for a couple of days but most pages will not be needed in a few weeks from now.

The important stuff that comes from this I do digitize with a tool like draw.io. Which I hate to use actually, it's not user-friendly to me, but it's what we use at work.

have you tried dot-grid paper? All the benefits of graph paper (easy to draw lines and boxes, and have a straight edge to write along) but the "grid" fades into the background. Come to the dot grid side. We've got better drawings. ;)

I shall try that, thank you =)

> Almost everything in my to do list these days can be executed in under 10 minutes.

That's pure genius!

I think the proverb goes "The hardest part of running a mile is putting your shoes on".

Surely holds true for me.

> the more complex the task in front of me was, the more my brain resisted to getting started and the more i procrasitnated.

This is because our usual ways of procrastinating give us instant gratification with very little effort, so they raise the bar for real work that gets us there with much more effort, often for less tangible gratification.

Video games are particular bad in this regard (and I've played many 1000s of hours).

You don't climb a mountain by thinking about mountains then making a huge epic trek in a couple of leaps. You climb a mountain by taking one step at a time. You have to take thousands of steps to reach the top of a mountain. Not every step is going to be perfect, or even pretty. Some will go in the wrong direction and you'll need to backtrack. Some will be missteps that might hurt. But if you keep making a concerted effort to climb the mountain, eventually you'll reach the top. Don't be too hard on yourself - it's important to look back and see how far you've climbed from time to time. The top may not look the way you expected, and you may not feel the way you thought, but you'll have done it.

Stop trying to climb a mountain in a single step, and stop trying to climb the mountain flawlessly. Just getting to the top is an achievement these days. You probably don't want to attempt Everest or K2 right after deciding to climb a mountain. Maybe try a few smaller ones, or some hills first.

I like and often use the mountain metaphor myself.

Sometimes the path to the top includes some abrupt parts, akin to climbing a vertical wall. These are big efforts that requires long periods of concentration.

These are often followed by easy trails with no elevation, or even downward. This can be boilerplate that you can do without even thinking.

When you've reached the top, if you realize that the path you followed was not the shortest/easiest/most elegant one, know that your new muscle strength will make it orders of magnitudes easier to go down again and find new shortcuts. Clean up, delete unused parts, simplify, comment/document etc.

Finally, you will not even think of it as a mountain but just a small bump :)

I like it too.

Find a local maximum that gives you some space to see around you. Climb a tree, or walk uphill for a good while - maybe a path will be more obvious from up there. In the metaphor, go spend some time learning some hobby for a while, something you enjoy doing but haven't put time into, then re-evaluate.

There is no best mountain to climb, just more mountains.

Sometimes there is no path where you want to go and you are the one who gets to blaze it. This doesn't have to be huge either, the path gets too worn down in places and new turns need to be added to get around those spots.

If you spend too much time looking at your map and compass, you won't end up putting many miles down.

Mountain climbing seems like a bad metaphor because you very much do need to prepare in advance for the whole trek. You won't be able to buy food and a radio once you're already stuck in a cave with no equipment.

I don't do mountain climbing and could be completely wrong though.

Maybe a long trek like the El Camino is a better metaphor. The idea is to look just one step in front of you and not think about the entire distance.

Pretty good advice i think as long as we backtrack, i specially could relate to it since i love climbing mountains.

Some people here suggest you might have ADHD. I encourage you to consider this, but suggest for you to be very skeptical towards this possibility. You can find extended discussion on this here: [1]. Focus first on fundamentals like sleep, exercise, diet, good social and romantic ties. Even if just one of your fundamentals is off, it might cause your brain to tell you “Hey, you want for me to put some long, hard, focused effort towards some long-term, hypothetical payoff, and yet I have this IMMEDIATE, IMPORTANT unfulfilled need. I am not even sure if I will make through the next week/month/X. Fix your priorities first, only then let’s play the long-term game, OK?”.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22132342

Excellent explanation of Maslow's Theory of Human Motivation [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

I live with two people with ADHD and I'm not seeing it. The OP describes giving up too easily for hard tasks, which is fairly common (I mean I have it) without any other indications for ADHD.

I have ADHD and while giving up easily is an indication for ADHD I have also a washing list of other symptoms, e.g. switching to a new hobby every other week, having sudden urges to google random things because my brain thinks it is of utmost importance to know about it RIGHT NOW, inability to maintain concentration if the thing I have to do doesn't interest me - but hyperfocusing on things for days on end if they interest me etc etc

ADHD is much more centered around concentration than just giving up easily, I guess.

I like this theory.. one may feel unconsciously that the "distractions" are a better/more promising way of meeting the unmet needs, in comparison to what the conscious mind wants to do.

you might have trauma (little t trauma), which feels weird to call trauma because its not obvious trauma (death, car accident, abuse etc) but still affects you a lot and your feelings are still just as valid and they are there and real. Try to allocate a long time, like 2 hours to focus on something that you know you have to do. Observe how it feels physically, in your body. For me, my throat tightens up and my chest gets tight and I feel like crying. So I procrastinated for years to avoid feeling the awful physical sensations. I still do, really. They haven't gone away for me just yet. First step is awareness, next is expecting the feeling, discovering what triggers it, making elaborate plans and tackling harder tasks in bite sized pieces. Force yourself to try and improve, because you have to, and soldier through the feelings like you're on the start of a long battle, or a long journey of self growth.

Seconding this approach (my specific experiences are different) - step one is observation of the feelings and sensations in the body.

My “laziness” was caused by little t trauma from childhood. I would stare at my editor and just start to cry at how I couldn’t bring myself to write code. I’m still working through it, but what has helped for me is taking space away from work, therapy, and the book The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck. Good luck.

I would definitely advocate for this approach. At a minimum this is a worthwhile experience if you can get your mind fully behind it.

I don't relate but this is extremely interesting to me.

Relate as well and agree with this approach. I'm still working through it. Even right now, as I watch the minutes countdown to the hour when I will begin again. I found the works of Dr Gabor Mate to be quite helpful (talks available on YouTube and I found a lot of value in his book When the Body Says No, especially the second half which I think you could just pick up and read). He primarily focuses on drug addiction but in doing so dives deeply into dealing with trauma. Another source that has been helpful to me is Oprah, her Super Soul Sunday podcast is great (browse the titles and pick any that seem interesting to you). And of course I wholly second the recommendations for therapy, understanding that one's perspective may not be the full picture can be life changing.

There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help, but there's non-stimulant medication available (if you're opposed to eating amphetamines for breakfast), as well as counselling and other treatment options that don't involve medication.

Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up articles on solving problems and achieving goals written specifically for people with ADHD and see if those help.

Fellow ADHD sufferer here to second this. Thinking about ADHD as a deficit of motivation, which is much more accurate than an attention-oriented view, tends to clarify this sort of situation.

Giving a third +1 here. I had (have) similar issues with motivation and got diagnosed with ADHD at age 25.

I'd describe it as "a disability of knowing how to do something, but not actually doing it unless there are external consequences involved"

Oh wow... you just described me with frightening accuracy. I’ve never seen my issue described so clearly and concisely. Basically, if there aren’t negative consequences for me not completing a task, my brain simply never gets motivated. It’s almost as if my brain is saying: “meh... you don’t really have to do this... so go play on Facebook some more”. If I could resolve this issue which has plagued me for years, it would revolutionize my life and career.

When in doubt always best to talk to a doc. Best case you are completely fine, but doesn't hurt checking. (The irony is that people with ADHD are probably the least likely to get up by themselves and make an appointment given that there are no consequences of not doing it lol)

ADHD is of course not just motivation but a spectrum of symptoms. I'd highly recommend listening to Dr. Russell Barkley talk about ADHD on this playlist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc...

Watch from 1B onwards and see if you feel like it describes you

How do you differentiate this from laziness/apathy?

Laziness and/or apathy are value judgments; they offer no useful insight into behaviour unless you believe that sin is a real thing.

Not really. You're choosing a definition those words that involves a value judgement.

apathy can be part of dysexecutive syndromes, such as ADHD.

To be pedantic, apathy is lack of emotion and interest.

Often that is not the case in ADHD. The hallmark of that syndrome is the inability to follow through/self-regulate behavior/plan actions to achieve the objective they are interested in.

The feeling can feel similar which is probably why a lot of people think they are just lazy. But ADHD is more of a reduced / lack of self-drive combined with a self-regulation + internal prioritization problem. Maybe a bit like laziness but the feeling is multiplied.

I of course have moments when I feel lazy and just don't want to do anything, but then there are the other moments when I want to do something, work on a project, practice a hobby but just don't. There is this disconnect, it's hard to explain

Best to look at other key ADHD symptoms as well like emotional regulation, rejection sensitve dysphoria, focus, (mental) hyperactivity (= your brain can't just chill), the need to constantly do something, impulsiveness (like with money), etc etc etc.

It's of course a spectrum and some people are worse in x while other people suffer more on y.

Best to talk to a doc if it affects your life. Could be ADHD, could be something else. It's very common though so admitting that there might be a problem is the first step to getting better

I have trouble focusing on work most of the time and lack the motivation for almost everything, unless not doing it would cause problems.

But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all.

Never heard of your way of describing it though.

I just posted a comment below that sounds like that - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920256

Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline.

Dumb examples are

- your homework unless the deadline comes closer

- a amazon box that you know the contents of but currently don’t need it, so it stays packaged standing around until you need the item or the space

- dishes

- a todo list item that’s floating around for weeks that takes minutes to complete but has no deadline

Then at other moments something just grabs your attention and it becomes the most important thing right now even if you should be doing something else. Like finding a new tool or programming language that you really want to use immediately, or randomly cleaning your entrance area NOW even though you should be leaving for the train to make a meeting.

Yes, that would be me. I know what I need to do in so many ways. But doing it? If it isn't a habit or some form of negative emotion forces me to do it, almost impossible. There are, of course, exceptions. But in general, absolutely.

Homework

Yes, same with tasks / Jira stories today.

Amazon box

There is a printer inside a box in my living room that I need to print a work related document. It's now there for like 8 days? My office wrote me, that they need that document and boy don't I care about it, as it is merely a formality. So yes, total check.

Dishes

See, this is why I'm not completely convinced ADHD matches me. I never leave dishes behind. When I'm done cooking, even before I take the first bite, the kitchen is in perfect condition. Vacuuming my room on the other hand...

Todo lists

I need them to be productive, but my personal todo list tends to remain on my whiteboard for weeks or months until I do everything possible in one rush. I guess that is also a match?

Your last paragraph sounds like doing things compulsively, things that aren't important right now. That is also a no match for me. I get hyper focused from time to time, although that has gotten quit rare in recent years. But I've never not went to a meeting or something similar because of it. If I need to do something, if I start to feel negative about it, I'll get it done no matter what. I'd feel quite awkward not getting to meetings, so that doesn't happen. Maybe this is still a match?

Edit:

On the other hand, I should complete a Jira story right now. But now I'm here and listening to a ADD related talk from another comment. But I really should work on that story to finish it. But I kind of have an open deadline. But it gets steadily more embarrassing that I haven't finished it. Uh oh.

There are different ways for ADHD to manifest.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivit... has a list of symptoms in adults.

> But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all.

If the symptoms listed there don't match, you probably don't have a ADHD, I guess.

Went through the list. I'd say at least 50% matches me completely, but some items are situational or are not even close.

- Keeping still? As a kid, I had always a problem keeping my leg still.

- Excessive talking? Nope, I was the quite kid. Also never interrupted anyone and still don't.

- Acting without thinking? The polar opposite. I didn't act because of all the thinking. That problem remains to this very day.

- Not caring about details? Painfully correct, why did I end up as SWE where details are all that matters?

- Appearing forgetful? 100%. I can't remember most of my childhood and have a bad memory in general. But I never misplace things. Can't remember work stuff if I don't write it down. Onenote saves me daily.

- Listening to instructions? Well, I'm very good at listening to people in bilateral situations. But during meetings? My mind goes places. And reading docs and instructions is almost impossible. Even if I can force myself to go through everything, I still miss details!

- Difficulty organizing? Absolutely, although I get it done if I'm forced to do it. But I hate it.

- Short attention span? Well, depends on the situation. In gaming, I can stay focused all day long. I can read a book for hours. No problem staying focused doing physical activities (sport). Staying focused on coding is really difficult and I constantly zone out.

- Taking risks? Ha, no. I don't take risks, at all. It's actually a problem.

- Impatience? Yes and no, depending on the situation. But I'm mostly quite patient. Maybe because I'm in my head most of the time?

- Mood swings? Not at all. At least not within one day. But during the week? There a bad days and good days.

- Not completing tasks? Not really, I tend to finish what I've started, if it is manageable, can be done in one go. But complex tasks, that may not be well defined? Personal hell.

- Inability to deal with stress? I'm a Jedi. I don't get stressed easily and if the situation becomes stressful, I get more focused. But I need a lot of downtime to keep my sanity.

That I went through these lists in a not so orderly fashion is also not the best sign, isn't it?

Not everyone has all the symptoms. For example, I don't really display hyperactivity nor mood swings, nor do I have trouble dealing with most kinds of stress.

> - Short attention span? Well, depends on the situation. In gaming, I can stay focused all day long. I can read a book for hours. No problem staying focused doing physical activities (sport). Staying focused on coding is really difficult and I constantly zone out.

Sounds like the flip side: hyperfocus. See eg https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/adhd-symptoms-hyperfo... Direct quote:

> Hyperfocus is the experience of deep and intense concentration in some people with ADHD. ADHD is not necessarily a deficit of attention, but rather a problem with regulating one’s attention span to desired tasks. So, while mundane tasks may be difficult to focus on, others may be completely absorbing. An individual with ADHD who may not be able to complete homework assignments or work projects may instead be able to focus for hours on video games, sports, or reading.

Maybe I should I give it a go. I really don't want to. But this has been frustrating for a long time. Thanks for the effort!

Have a look, maybe it helps.

The good side about the common ADHD medications (various stimulants) is that they mostly help within half an hour, if they help at all.

So apart from the hassle of getting a diagnosis and prescription, at least you won't have to endure months of side effects before you know whether you can get any better.

(I'm contrasting that with eg anti-depressants here.)

That sounds promising. On a side note, today I've tried Nicotin for the first time. I've heard that it helps people with ADHD and as this has been on my mind for a couple of months by now, I figured that this might be an easy way to check myself. Your post was the last push and I have a shop right next to my door.

Well, it seemed to work. Maybe placebo, but I'd say that I had high concentration burst in 30-45 minutes intervals (after inhaling). I kind of forgot that I've taken it a couple of minutes in, because I was so focused on the code. I heard that Nicotin works as neuroenhancer in general, so nothing is proven. But no matter why, it seemed to help.

I really don't want to get addicted to Nicotin, so I'll see how I can find a doctor to verify/falsify this.

Thanks again!

Some Researchers propose 7 types of ADD, which are quite different on the surface symptoms. Check out this talk by Dr. Amen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWnJ4wjVu9k

Anybody feels that ADHD or similar issues are often a sign that you're not doing things that you need to to be happy ? Like running after something for the wrong reasons ?

Kinda like Bukowski "don't try" ?

ps: to explain more, there were times where

a) I was slowly but surely inspired by a topic and would just keep wondering and thinking about it, 'hard' or not, it was similar to walking a mental park

b) I was motivated by desires (greatness, potential financial gains, social status, some faith that the outcome would make me feel happy) but now my feelings about them have changed so it feels pointless. I feel a lot better when doing things that have no real goal but actually procure a lightweight joy.

For instance, I used to equate more study to more possibilities and capacity to 1) create more (joy) 2) get a good job. But my experience was that these efforts weren't useful in reality. Even though I got some FP moocs, solved problems alone, I'm still stuck too often, and recruiters don't give a damn. It all erodes your happiness/ROI center.

Depression (and many other illnesses, autoimmune, hormonal deficiencies, sleep disorders, all kinds of dementia and other neurological illnesses) will produce a dysexecutive syndrome that's very similar, if not indisginuishable, from ADHD.

In your specific case you may want to read up on something called "learned helplessness". Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely.

That is different from ADHD. ADHD in itself is really a diagnosis of exclusion, where no clear cause can be found.

> Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely.

Funny how my conclusions today are the opposite. I didn't quit early enough somehow. Well it's hard to tell, tbh, I've spent years learning hard stuff without any real benefit. So many a different course of action would make sense :)

In practice, ADHD is what you have when stimulants make you get better.

If your laundry lists of symptoms (depression, sleep disorders, lack of motivation etc) get better from stimulants, count yourself lucky. Stimulants work right away, if they work at all, and have few and relatively mild side-effects.

Some of the side-effects, like weight loss, are even seen as welcome by many people. Others like having to pee more often and cold hands are relatively easy to deal with.

For comparison, antidepressants take months to show even mild positive effects; and have major side-effects.

ADHD is best described as impaired self-directed behavior.

The kernel of motivation may exist, but an ADHD victim would fail to follow through on that motivation, to their own detriment.

Either due to lack of concentration, lack of planning, or lack of execution. Often all of the above.

It is a general dysexecutive syndrome that that may impact all higher order cognitive functions.

Motivation, on the other hand can also be impaired by depression (aka "learned helplessness" - which is not uncommon in ADHD), but that would not be ADHD in itself.

Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems.

Expecting technical/intellectual problems to be easy to solve is something that is drilled into most people by the school system, which rarely if ever present problems that take more than a few minutes to solve, and pretty much never expect students to try tackling problems that require weeks of effort.

The result is that when many people encounter a hard problem, if they can’t make progress after spending a bit of effort on it, they give up and conclude that either the problem is too hard or they are too stupid to keep going.

There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.

> Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems.

At least 3-4 people with ADHD have already spotted the potential, and I expect that more will while the question is up. You're right that it doesn't have to be ADHD, but I don't really see the value in dismissing it either.

Edit:

> There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.

For those of us who do have a chemical imbalance, many of us have coping mechanisms which look a lot like building up this stamina. But it's important to understand that this can come very unnaturally for some people and be considerably more difficult and unstable.

> There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.

I was diagnosed with ADHD my senior year of college. Before that, the mindset you're advocating got close to breaking me.

My “mindset” (if you can call it that) is that most people don’t get much experience tackling hard problems, at least up through school. In light of that, what I would “advocate” is that people should try to get practice working on problems at their current level of stamina/ability (which might be very low), and slowly work their way up, instead of beating themselves up when a problem much more difficult than what they were used to seemed like an impossible challenge.

Maybe you can elaborate about what “mindset” you were thinking of, and why it came close to breaking you? I suspect you were misunderstanding my intended message, and that the “mindset” you are imagining is pretty far from my own set of beliefs.

Note that before I was not advocating anything; only stating an observation that most people don’t get much practice tackling hard problems, and that people with or without ADHD can have difficulty tackling hard problems. Do you think that is inaccurate? It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. I know a lot of people who have difficulty with hard problems, and some of them definitely don’t have ADHD.

* * *

I am taking care of a 3.5 year old full time, so I’ll give you some relevant examples from that context:

If I try to read a book aloud which is much too hard for him (say a novel pitched at teenagers), he gets bored and wanders away. But his attention span, vocabulary, grammar, etc. are gradually improving, so the books he understands now (e.g. Pippi Longstocking, The Cricket in Times Square) are much more sophisticated than the books he could understand a year ago (e.g. Henry and Mudge, Frog and Toad), which are in turn much more sophisticated than the books he was interested in a year before that (e.g. Go Dog Go, The Very Hungry Caterpillar).

If we try to work on some 1-player logic puzzle games, the ones that say “age 7+” on the box are currently too difficult for him and he gets bored/frustrated and wants to do something else. The ones that say “age 5+” are pretty good, and he can do them with some external help. The ones that say “age 3+” are getting to be easy by now, and he can do them independently.

If we go out to practice balancing on a vehicle, a 2-wheeled scooter is now getting to be okay if we go carefully, but 6 months ago it was too difficult and therefore very frustrating. A year ago, he was just starting to figure out the (pedal-free) balance bike, and now he can zoom around on it. If I tried to get him to ride a skateboard I predict he would fall off and not want to try (heck, that’s probably what I would do if I tried to ride a skateboard).

One of my son’s friends has no experience with a balance bike, and is embarrassed to try in front of anyone, because my son (who has more than a year of practice) can zoom all around, whereas any kid just starting finds it to be a great challenge. But the same kid can swing across the monkey bars, something my son cannot, because that’s something that boy has practiced for a few months.

* * *

Activities like writing computer programs, playing music, writing essays, playing sports, cooking, etc. are similar: they require many challenging skills which must be slowly built up over the course of years of practice, and are very daunting for someone who is unprepared. The way to get better at these is to start at your current level and practice, in a playful and low-pressure environment, slowly improving until you can handle high-level challenges.

And the same is true of meta skills which apply to many domains like searching and reading academic literature in a field you are unfamiliar with, coming up with a few choices of high-level problem solving strategies and then picking one to apply, breaking the problem solving process down into smaller manageable chunks until you get down to a chunk small enough to just dive in, taking organized notes, trying many small examples when you don’t yet have a solid conceptual understanding, finding and tackling a simpler related problem instead, stopping occasionally while working to check if you’re making progress and if the current strategy still seems promising, recognizing that you are badly stuck and finding the right person to ask for help ...

Taking your example of your 3.5 year old's book reading attention and interest ...

What would you say if they were bored / distracted by everything you read to them, not just the difficult things?

That is a description of my 3.5 year old when he hasn’t had enough exercise for a day or two and is tired and/or hungry.

I haven’t spent an appreciable amount of time with a kid who is always completely uninterested in stories of any kind. But I can speculatively imagine a variety of possible causes for that: other distracting stimuli, malnutrition, exposure to toxins, disease, congenital brain abnormality, emotional abuse, ...

Do you have some particular kid in mind?

Or if this is an analogy to problem solving: if someone literally can’t manage to attempt any kind of problem no matter how trivial, then “easily give up when I face a hard problem” would not be an accurate description of the situation.

I usually just lurk here but something in your comment made it impossible for me to ignore. I do not want to be rude but think you are behaving exactly like a pushy parent who would cause the sort of trauma OP is facing right now.

This constant push for a 3.5 year old to read books that clearly require more mental effort than is okay for his/her age, play 'logic' games that he/she can get no joy from are a huge red parenting flag. You might have good intentions but your relentless need for him to raise up to these arbitrary standards of yours that have been created without any regards for his/her happiness are going to put so much unsustainable pressure on the kid.

By forcing your kid to play with the games he can not understand or reading the books he doesn't like, you are just stealing his/her childhood. I can only hope that you realize this sooner than later.

I missed this before, as it was posted long after the original comment.

> pushy parent

This is funny. Other parents at the playground (back when playgrounds were open) are constantly telling me how unusually non-pushy I am (sometimes critically, sometimes admiringly). Example: “I’m glad to have you as a reference for how laid back a parent can be with kids still doing okay, so I won’t feel so bad when my immigrant inlaws give me trouble for being too lax with my kids.”

I admit I have been pushier than I would like recently when it comes to the kid running down the hallway at 1 AM (which causes complaints from the neighbors downstairs), shoving or hitting his 1-year-old brother (which makes me more anxious than it probably should), or wanting to dump yet another bunch of toys on a floor already covered by the previous two bunches of toys.

> books that clearly require more mental effort than is okay for his/her age

What are you talking about? We read those stories which the kid enjoys (sometimes over and over, at his insistence), and stop reading those which he does not.

If he finds the content of a book to be too over his head, too boring, too scary, ... then we set the book aside. (For example, recently William Steig’s Dominic was too scary, and St. Exupéry’s The Little Prince was too abstract.) We might try to return to those in a year when his tastes and abilities have changed, but at that point might decide to leave them aside for another year.

He is the one who most wants to spend a lot of time reading together. I just indulge that desire because I enjoy it too.

Why do you think listening to chapter books as a 3-year-old requires a “more than okay” level of mental effort?

> play 'logic' games that he/she can get no joy from

Huh? I bought a bunch of logic games because I personally enjoyed the first two I tried, for myself. Some of them are targeted at age 3+; others say age 8+ (and are enjoyable for adults). But those numbers are at least somewhat arbitrary, based on the age at which it would be appropriate to hand a not-otherwise-prepared child the puzzle with minimal additional direction/support, and leave them to figure it out for themselves.

The 3.5 year old really likes playing the puzzle games! They are fun and interesting. Some he likes to do mostly by himself. Some he likes to help me with. If the challenges get frustrating, we set those aside and do something else instead.

I promise you that we are not doing any puzzles which “he can not understand” or which he “can get no joy from”.

> relentless need for him to raise up to these arbitrary standards

There is no relentless need for anything, and no standard, arbitrary or otherwise. We just introduce a wide variety of tools, materials, and activities, and let him engage with them at his own pace.

> stealing his/her childhood

What do you consider to be a “not stolen” childhood? Parents leaving their kids entirely to their own devices and not engaging when the kids want to do things together? Parents leaving their kids in front of animated TV or iPad games for hours per day? Parents leaving kids with only a few toys/materials because they don’t want them to gain experience with a broad variety too fast? Whatever happens to be on offer from the nearest preschool?

Recently the 3.5 year old spends at least half of his time playing independently with whatever toys he feels like – his younger brother takes a lot of adult attention too – and unfortunately (due to Covid-19 shelter in place) we are stuck inside away from other people instead of visiting the playground for a few hours or walking around the neighborhood chatting with all of the nearby retail/restaurant staff, as we used to do before lockdown times.

It’s frustrating that we can’t get together with other kids of the same age too much right now. (I’m sure things are even harder for older kids; 3-year-olds are just starting to make friends and learning to play together with other kids, but for a 7- or 10-year-old being stuck away from friends must be really tough.)

* * *

With repeated practice and a little bit of help/guidance kids can learn all sorts of skills to a quite high level.

Witness the enjoyment and rapid improvement of Shinichi Suzuki’s young violin students or Mona Brookes’s young drawing students. These are ordinary children, given a little bit of structure and guidance, put in an environment where practicing a little bit every day or a few times a week is enjoyable, and then allowed to flourish for themselves.

It doesn’t take any draconian pressure, just enough adult time and attention to make a space for it.

I completely agree, as someone who was diagnosed at about the same time in my life. It was one of the best and worst days in my life the first time I took medication: best because a mental fog had lifted for the first time ever, worst because how different would my life be if I'd been diagnosed sooner?

Fifteen years later, I am still stably medicated, and life is what I had always wanted it to be: productive and fulfilling. I hope anyone reading this does not let a stigma of medication bar them from talking to somebody about it if they've faced years of frustration over not being able to do what others seem to do easily: just getting shit done.

James Clear in book `Atomic Habits` talks about the Goldilocks rule, https://jamesclear.com/goldilocks-rule

which recommends to work on problems slightly higher than your capability

There's a difference between "finding it difficult to get started on the thing you don't want to do" and "literally would not be able to choose to do it for more than a few minutes even with a gun to your head".

I don't know the OP but this seems a bit like telling someone that "everyone feels tired sometimes" when they might have undiagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome.

The original post is consistent with many different types of difficulties, including plenty that have nothing to do with ADHD.

If you told a new parent, an alcoholic, or someone living on a toxic waste dump that everyone who is frequently tired probably has CFS, that would be equally irresponsible.

Looks like you posted while I was writing my response, and another has chimed in on this sub-thread. I expect a bunch of us will recognize ourselves a bit in this AskHN.

I am currently getting help with ADD and this is a similar situation to me as well. However, I was diagnosed because I'm trying to get help for insomnia. Specifically, I have a lot of trouble falling asleep. I'm just adding another data point in case anyone is relating to OP, the comment I replied to, AND has difficulty falling asleep. It's always good to have a clear picture of what your mental health is like.

I got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.

I also had sleep issues, but never bad enough to seek help for them. Fortunately, the ADHD meds fixed the sleep issues, too.

Have you tried taking some L-Tryptophan in the evening? For some people it works wonders for sleep and mood. L-Tryptophan is an essential amino acid that you can buy over-the-counter. Your body needs it to make melatonin and serotonin amongst other things.

My sleeping issues were never bad enough either until my team started having daily 9AM meetings. Ugh

I haven't tried L-Tryptophan! But I'll give it a go. My medication hasn't really started taking effect yet but hopefully I don't have to take sleeping medication once it does. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Hopefully that helps also.

L-Tryptophan is a pre-cursor to melatonin. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...

I highly recommend checking out this thread about stimulant medications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574

As someone who has ADHD and has taken stimulant medications for a long time, I would like to share my experience. There is a very faustian aspect of taking these medications. Don't think that you can change your brain chemistry and not change who you are.

I would not have the career I have today without it. Before I started getting treated, I was barely supporting myself financially, and struggling to get through community college. I felt so powerless, while my peers rocketed ahead of me. After I started taking medication, I was able to take control of my life, and do things I had previously ruled out doing. I did great academically, and then made more money than I ever thought I would. It was such an amazing feeling to feel like I had been given a second chance at life.

However, it changed me, and I lost something. I wonder what could have been. I remember the moment I noticed I was changed. For a year before I started taking it, I had been dating someone for over a year, and not once had we ever had a fight. But a month after I started taking adderall, I screamed at her when I got frustrated because she changed plans we had made. I was so horrified, and I wanted to stop taking it that day, when I still could. Our relationship didn't last three more months. I gradually lost touch with my old friends.

I was only supposed to take it to get through college, but the choices I made on adderall were such that I chose a lifestyle that required it. I pushed myself really hard for years and I was able to prove that I wasn't a slacker or stupid; I got a fancy .edu email and coauthored scholarly papers and presented at conferences.

I miss who I was before I started taking it. Things just didn't annoy me. I was so cool with stuff. I think I was much more emotionally resilient, and much better able to read people. Stimulant medications make me more "autistic", for lack of a better word. I think I have really regressed emotionally.

I would strongly advise anyone who starts taking these medications to not lose touch with yourself. See a therapist, even if it does not seem necessary. Try to maintain relationships and keep yourself emotionally anchored. Give your soul room to breathe. Take emotional sabbaticals where you are able to ruminate on important decisions. Consider not taking your meds on the weekends. Listen to music and play video games, even if they don't seem to entertain you as much. I have a theory that your "right brain" still likes these things, but that your impulses for entertainment are just suppressed.

As for me, I am seriously considering trying to live without these medications, or at least severely cut them back. Besides the problems that I talked about, there is also evidence that stimulant medications can reduce brain mass over the decades. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing the best for themselves, but everything has a cost. If you want to do well in college and build your career in your 20s, that is understandable. But keep yourself grounded.

I was diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago when I was 30.

I tried a few medications. When I as on Vyvanse, I noticed similar personality changes as what you described. Most notably, my sense of humour suffered. (And before on dexamphetamine, I was really grumpy when it wore off. So I did get into fights.)

Things got better after I changed to methylphenidate. For me, it's milder in the side effects.

Modafinil and nicotine patches also work reasonably well with only mild side effects. (See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine about nicotine. Please don't start smoking.)

Caffeine never worked at all for me. Just messed with my sleep. L-Tryptophan seems to help me very slightly, but I have friends who report great effects, especially with sleep and mood.

Enough ranting, my point is: you can try different stimulants to see if there's anything else that works better for you.

Finding the minimal dose that still works is of course still a good idea.

Yes, I have had good experiences with methylphenidate (Ritalin) as well. One thing I noticed is that on adderall I stopped yawning completely. On Ritalin, my body is actually able to signal to me when I'm tired, hungry, etc. The problem is that I had to take ever larger amounts of caffeine to compensate.

I just know that I don't want to be taking adderall when I'm 40.

Yes. I had similar reaction: I was very relieved that I could take a nap on Ritalin. That never worked on dexamphetamine.

Though I also heard from some other people for whom Ritalin has intolerable side effects, but Adderall works.

Honestly for me, if methylphenidate wasn't available, I'd go with nicotine patches and perhaps modafinil instead of dexamphetamine.

Thanks to billions of smokers we a have pretty good idea of the long term effects of nicotine. Eg we know that it protects against parkinsons. (And there are some indications that Parkinsons and ADHD are linked.)

What was the diagnosis process like? I'm in my early 30s and have been putting off trying to get an ADHD diagnosis (and medication) even though the symptoms clearly resonate, because I'm concerned that I'll be dismissed as just seeking pills. In college I tried to get diagnosed and was dismissed as lazy and just seeking a prescription. Did you have to deal with any of that skepticism?

I was lucky that I was living in Australia at the time where adult ADHD seems to be taken more serious by shrinks than in most other parts of the world. I also splurged and saw the shrink privately.

So the diagnosis process was mostly answering lots of questions and filling out some questionnaires.

In the United States, there are controlled substances, and federal law requires that a psychiatrist write a new prescription every month, with no automatic refills.

However, it is heavily streamlined. My university medical center and on campus pharmacy had me in and out with a week supply of adderall in about two hours. There were weekly followups for about four weeks, then monthly followups every three months, and then it was just five mins with a psychiatrist for minor adjustments thereafter. After graduation, most psychiatrists will do monthly followups over the phone, and may only require you to come in a few times a year.

I have however heard it can be much harder if they suspect that you are unstable or "drug seeking". But if you don't appear to be a risk, and you can clearly explain your situation, then they will usually offer you a week supply and you report if it helps you. I think a big factor is just what your life situation is.

Private psychiatrists are much more likely to help you. Make an appointment with an "ADHD specialist". As long as you don't have any red flags, they are likely to give you a test prescription"

If you can afford it, go to a specialist (ie Seattle's Hallowell Todaro ADHD Center). It will probably be more expensive and might take longer to get evaluated, but you'll be taken seriously and it's easier to advocate for yourself and your medication when the medical providers don't automatically jump to "pill seeking".

I'm not sure about my current provider, but the place that diagnosed me would let patients complete evaluations at a slower pace if they couldn't afford everything right away.

Also, before I switched to a specialist after moving, I tried asking my GP for my RX and they went straight to "pill seeking", however, they would still allow me to get my script if I came in every month for a drug test.

I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but modafinil can have some not-so-mild side effects.

I have been pretty healthy my whole life, exercise regularly and eat a healthy diet, never had any allergy nor anything alike... until I took (ar)modafinil. After 2-3 weeks of occasional consumption (1 pill every 2/3 days) I started with a mouth full of ulcers (aphthae), which progressed to a full-body rash. Apparently I had Erythema multiforme major, one of the potential side-effects of Modafinil, and honestly it was worrying.

That does sound pretty worrying!

I'm obviously not a doctor, so take my words with a healthy dosage of salt, but do understand that different medications can have different effects on you. There's multiple types of ADHD medication (the two most common families are Adderall and Ritalin/Concerta), and because they're composed differently, it's possible that one can help more than the other.

For me personally (YMMV!!!), I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and was offered stimulant medication for it. I first tried Adderall, which did in fact work, but after a while it made me quite moody and depressed and miserable. I later switched to Concerta and I'm doing quite a bit better.

That said, definitely don't feel pressured to stay on and medication that isn't helping you, or that you feel is hurting you. It's ultimately your choice what you put in your body.

There's an easy experiment OP can do: see if nicotine patches help.

Nicotine is a safe stimulant that available over the counter; and works really well against ADHD and can help normal people too. Arguably much better than caffeine for the vast majority of people.

See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine for details.

One thing to keep in mind: stay away from smoking. That's vile and addictive.

As someone who just quit nicotine (e-cigs/NRT/tobacco-free “dip”) after nearly a decade, stay away from it at all costs. Nicotine is a wonderful brain stimulant (nootropic), but it’s far too easy to become and stay addicted.

Interesting. I only ever tried the patches on and off, and never had any problem stopping. The research that Gwern collected at https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine seems similar.

I never smoked or tried e-cigarettes, though. Smoking is awfully addictive.

I tried half a nicotine gum once. But the stimulant hit was too much at once and made me nauseous for about half an hour. (Similar to eg the effects of way too much espresso, but with much shorter duration.)

Did you ever smoke burnt tobacco?

What was the process of quitting e-cigarettes (and the others you mention) like?

By overcoming the concept of "lazyness". Society makes us believe that lazyness is just "not wanting to do something". But that is scientifically proven to be factually wrong. Procrastination is rather a result of our doubts and fears regarding our invidual performance and escapism with respect to the negative feelings we accumulated towards a specific task (even if we don't realize that!). We can feel fine until we discover the mountain of negative feelings we have pushed far far away in a corner and forgotten about. People who are functioning and very seasoned procrastinators don't even realize they are doing it.

If you realize that and manage to develop some empathy for yourself, you can overcome procrastination quite permanently. It is not a weakness to be fearful or have doubts (and in extension to be "lazy"), but a very human aspect of our nature and everybody. It is very very normal to be fearful of failing. But we have to do it anyway all the while telling us that it is ok to be a little anxious and that everybody else has the same feelings unless they are seasoned veterans in a specific topic. And it has been proven time and time again that the strongest and most successful human beings are the ones who accept this.

All other answer (i.e. "breaking down the problems") just combat the symptoms, not the problem itself.

I'm going to guess that you're going to get more mileage out of cutting something out of your life than in adopting yet another mindset, habit, drug or whatever. Some possible things that might work:

* youtube/netflix

* social media

* news

* sugar

* video games

These are the things your brain goes towards automatically as an easier "win" than in facing the harder problem. Cutting them out will leave room for you to face harder challenges.

>These are the things your brain goes towards automatically as an easier "win" than in facing the harder problem. Cutting them out will leave room for you to face harder challenges.

This completely changes my perspectives as to why I get up from my desk to go grab a snack, look at my phone, etc. Thank you

Do you think this would have the same effect on someone who had a legitimate underlying issue (eg adhd)?

I just ask because its the standard response along with sleep and exercise, and I cant help wonder if it "works" because people without real underlying issues get some marginal benefit, or if it actually works for people with issues.

ADHD can be exacerbated by low energy. Some psychiatrists recommend eating sugar to help maintain focus.

As for the other stuff, if I cut those out I get miserable and more easily bored. Better to use them as carrots; "if I do 45 minutes of coding I can play 1 game of Rocket League."

> As for the other stuff, if I cut those out I get miserable and more easily bored.

In my experience this is temporary. It takes about 1-2 weeks for my brain to adjust to the "new normal" of not playing video games or binging youtube. These 1-2 weeks are quite boring, but after that I am able to find things I would normally be bored by interesting. It's as if there is a "boredness set point", and once you cut out the most stimulating activities, less stimulating things like coding or reading will become more interesting to you.

That said, I like video games and youtube videos, so I often go for a middle-ground approach like you.

I don't want my "normal" life to not include anything that gives me joy.

That requires quite a bit of discipline to keep with the "just one game". Or, I'm just too addicted to video games, but I don't see that working for me.

Work time is for work, and after work I can game. If I need a break during work I'd rather just read hackernews for a bit. Less addictive :P

It's interesting you mention sugar. There's also a biological component here--diet plays a huge role in how your brain works.

For example, on a ketogenic diet (no sugar and limited carbs) your brain produces ketones and many people report far less lethargy.

Sugar helps in the short-term, but if you get past the keto-flu, you no longer become glycogen dependent. Long-term ketogenic diets are now finally being studied, with many people reporting tremendous success.

Psychiatrists love giving you sugar and drugs though. Any drugs, any sugar!

This could be because you were told you're a smart kid. Kids who are praised for intelligence over effort have been shown in some studies to pick easier problems and give up quickly if a problem is too hard.

Check out Carol Dweck's research. Here's an early article: [https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/14/science/praise-children-f...]. Note that there are some criticisms of her work, and like many other studies in psychology, reproducibility is an issue. However, I found this quite useful in diagnosing my own thinking patterns towards effort.

Oof, I feel that. Any ideas towards improving focus on more difficult efforts? I end up with a lot of unfinished tasks and it's been notably counterproductive.

Social accountability is the best. Have someone check that you're doing them one at a time, and tell them to praise you for struggling and working hard. Also, enjoy that feeling of being a beginner, of sucking at something, and of having a hard time. The feeling of progress is so rewarding that it motivates you to seek things that are hard, just to feel that sense of improvement.

Focus and practice helped me.

Cut down the number of tasks you're working on at once. If you think about it there's probably some that don't need to be done. Personal projects that you'll never see through can be dropped. Narrow down the most important and focus on them. Throwing something away isn't failure, it's a decision to prioritize.

It's an ongoing process which requires practice.

With focus you can practice finishing things, starting small. Finishing tasks feels good and leads to more things being finished.

If you feel lost or are having difficulty taking next steps it's probably a sign that you need to break up a task into smaller pieces. Try picking one small part you can do now and finish that.

Tangentially, you might also be interested in "Time Management for System Administrators" by Limoncelli. It's got a lot of good info about getting things done (in any domain).

The problem with hard problems is that its easy to give up. However, just because you gave up doesn't mean you didn't learn anything. Especially beginners write a lot of crap code and it's actually better if that code never makes it to production but when its time for their second or third project their previous experience becomes very valuable.

"Kids who are praised for intelligence over effort have been shown in some studies to pick easier problems and give up quickly if a problem is too hard"

You're implying that praise for intelligence makes people lazy. But if they weren't lazy, then they would likely be praised for effort - it's at least as plausible the causality goes the other way.

Claimed evidence makes me think of the regression to the mean paradox/fallacy, where people predictably do worse after praise and better after criticism.

Maybe I phrased it poorly. Did you read the article? The study involved praise no matter what. The independent variable was the nature of the praise (intelligence vs effort).

There was an article[0] on HN a couple of days ago about 'accelerated' education for gifted students, and how 'nonaccelerands' appears to have significantly worse outcomes. I suspect that students who are the best in their class can reliably put less effort for the same result as their peers, and then learn to 'coast' their way through life. Until they reach college-level, or the 'real world', where the workload often doesn't permit this.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22901962

For some people, procrastination is a form of emotional management.

For others, sometimes the best strategy is "embrace the suck": do it even though you're likely to fail. Keep repeating until you don't.

Having a good well rounded education or library of random facts helps you dig into problems because it gives you perspective. Learning should be a lifelong process.

Finally, physical health is very important. If you're not working out, start a regular, manageable, cardiovascular exercise routine. There's many benefits to this, better sleep, better focus, and confidence building.

Just wanted to add 2 cents to this comments and the rest of the comments in this thread. Lots of good stuff here on ADHD, trauma-orientation, and emotional management.

To build on this thread, I think it's important to feel what is happening when you procrastinate. What is it like in your body when you think about your task. Is it because you think you are going to fail? Because the task involves interpersonal conflict? Is it because you just don't want to do it (not interesting).

If you can start w/ your body + emotions, you'll get a felt sense of what is standing in the way. From there you can start to ask the question "why", is there a reason that those types of emotions happen when faced with this type of task?

As someone with ADHD, anticipatory anxiety has stopped me in my tracks countless times. I try to use this method to be aware there is anxiety, the feelings, and the story I'm telling around that anxiety. For me the anxiety is often a way of not starting, and if I don't start I can't mess up. In recognizing that, I can be a little bit more supportive of myself and be more willing to try.

I'm using a throwaway account for this because I don't want to be this candid with any account that can be traced back to me.

After reading some of the response mentioning ADHD and the issues people have, I wanted to talk about my issues and see if it resonates with anyone else and if others relates to it. It's not something I ever really discussed with anyone and I do think it would be good for me to hear from others.

I have a mental barrier to doing certain tasks. For example anything related to paperwork or bureaucracy, I want to do those tasks, I know I must do them but whenever I start thinking of them I have a kind of barrier that stops me. It's extremely difficult to overcome that barrier. While I dearly wish those tasks were done, when it comes to starting, I cannot muster any of the motivation...

If I read a novel, I will either finish the novel within a few hours (or series of novels within a few days) and forget to eat or do anything else or, if I stop, I usually never come back to finish it.

It doesn't affect my work much because for work I do meet deadlines and I work from home but I'm still able to find the energy to do things. I do have one issue in that if I know exactly how to do a task, then the only for me to really complete it in time is for me to do it while watching tv or something that distracts my brain a bit. Otherwise, I quickly fall into looking at websites, spending time on hacker news or reading about anything new that piqued my interest.

I've never thought about seeing a therapist until now, but recently my girlfriend broke up with me mostly because of this and I still have a very hard time pushing myself to do what needs to be done (I really want to do it but whenever I start, I just hit a wall, it's like there's something pushing me to ignore it and do anything else... I sometimes even end up not wanting to do anything else but still can't muster the energy to start on those tasks)...

Apologies for the rambling...

For some reason, when I try to edit this post, it doesn't update it correctly, there's a paragraph missing:

On the other hand, whenever my mind find something interesting, I can have a lot of focus. I'm able to spend a couple of week only thinking about that issue, during that time, nothing else really matters, and I can't really get interested in anything else. I have difficulty talking about anything else with my partner (which she used to find annoying). This can be anything from a problem at work, to researching what the best video projector would be and trying to understand everything behind the technology of all models in the market place... I do have a tendency to become completely uninterested about that subject or that task after it. So, for example, recently, I suddenly became obsessive about headphones and audio gear, I researched everything about them, bought quite a few high end headphones (spent a quarter of my salary on them) but by the time they finally arrived, I was no longer interested and couldn't even really find the motivation to test them. I barely use them and they are now gathering dust on my shelf

I have adhd and I would suggest you get that checked out because it sounds similar to how I experience it. Also search for hyperfocus online, it is what happens if people with ADHD get interested in something! As I said in another post, I get immensely interested in a new hobby like e.g. playing DND or learning how to play the guitar for one, two, maybe three weeks and after that - nada. Except "high dopamine" stuff like video games.

That sounds exactly like what the ADHD community calls a "hyperfixation". If you do want to look down the ADHD path more, here's some articles and such that might be helpful. Obviously, see a therapist about all of this and get diagnosed too if this all seriously resonates with you.

- "Why I Procrastinate" - https://invisibleup.com/articles/27/ (disclaimer: i wrote this one)

- "ADHD: A Lifelong Struggle" - https://gekk.info/articles/adhd.html

- ADHD Alien comics - https://adhd-alien.tumblr.com/

- Dani Donovan's ADHD infographics - https://twitter.com/i/events/808796572716765185

Thanks both for the feedback and for the resources. Yes, I will definitely see a therapist.

I've gotten so much out of seeing my current therapist. It's one of the best decisions I've ever made. However, I started with psychiatrists, and had 3 in a row who insulted me and were worse than doing nothing. Look for a LPC practicing cognitive behavioral therapy. I can't really put into words how it's helped but my life is significantly better now and I wish I had started sooner.

We are in very similar shoes. I get freaked out by administration and bureaucracy. I haven't submitted my taxes for years now. I stalled credit card payments and abandoned companies, never collected payments for my contracting jobs I've finished...

Work is not a problem for me either, I do what needs to be done, but not much more.

I also had negative cycles that eventually lead to my GF dumping me.

For me, the solution was fairly simple, to work on myself seriously. I found a therapist and started working out and now I feel I'm becoming a better version of myself. This is fairly recent, all this change happened in January.

Now we are seeing each other again with my ex and I'm making sounds plans to own a home and do something realistic with my life.

Keep it up, you are not alone!

Thanks For the encouragement! What kind of methodology does your therapist use? Is there a good way to choose a therapist?

Some things that have been extremely useful for me:

Play video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.

Reduce social media. I’ve found that this was the most productive. Social media was fragmenting my attention by making me anxious and addicted. After I reduced Reddit and Facebook usage, my mental discipline increased drastically.

Keep a journal. I’ve found verbalizing my thoughts in a simple and concise manner is hard and requires a lot of focused thinking.

Aerobic exercise helps; more circulation for your brain means it can work better

I’ve been dealing with the same problem too so I’ve been finding ways to engage myself.

Genuinely curious, does playing video games really improve focus etc.? Is this anecdotal, or did you read some paper somewhere?

Sorry, don’t have any specific papers for you, but if you google around you’ll find the general consensus is if you’re forced to focus on any mentally straining task for a prolonged period, it’ll generally help your mental abilities.

If the game is challenging for you, it will likely help.

Check out neuroscience books if you want to be deep in this stuff.

This is the "willpower" theory by Baumeister. There's a book of the same name.

The theory is controversial. The effect likely isn't too big, or it would be harder to design experiments where it doesn't show up at all.

But even assuming the theory is correct, playing video games wouldn't be considered beneficial, at least as long as you are enjoying it.

This should be somewhat obvious: if you enjoy doing something you are obviously not training your capability to do something that you don't enjoy.

The closest you can get to have license to indulge is that Baumeister would predict not playing video games (when you would like to do so) will deplete your willpower, and make it harder to resist other urges (such as not working) for that day. Over the longer term (several weeks) however, repeatedly resisting that urge to play would train your willpower.

As a software engineer who also plays plenty of video games, I would say that it largely depends on the kind of game you play as well as HOW you play it.

I find games that require lots of exploring, solving puzzles helps improve my focus. In most FPS games, this only works if you strategize your approach in gaming. E.g considering the next X moves ahead, scoping vantage points etc.

Also, when I just need to clear my head, I personally find that there's nothing like games (besides exercise).

Fun anecdote, when I met my SO, she was in incredibly into exercise and I was not. But I was very much into games. We ended up influencing each other. Now we game & exercise together..

I think overall it's a net positive if done in moderation.

The problem with those games is that it is easy to spend a full day playing them:

- StarCraft tries to keep your win rate at 50%, so a lot of the time you will find yourself frustrated.

- DotA games can be really long, and some people get really upset.

Now, I recommend you write down how you feel before playing these games, and how you feel after. And try to see if it helps.

Do you feel ready to study or work on a side project for 6 hours? I doubt so. You will probably feel ready for another match, and another, and another.

>Play video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.

Don't do that. These games are exactly the core of my own mental laziness.

I've played dota for a while and used to feel this way. It's still not something I'd recommend to get smarter, but if you feel like it's making you lazy try staying focused while you're dead. Personally I just think about what I/my team could have done differently (or if maybe my death was a good trade). After minute 30 or so you spend upwards of a minute dead, if you just go and check reddit or whatever it just reinforces hard thinking -> extreme mind candy (or at least, it did for me).

Plus you'll probably improve, I rose a few ranks after starting to do this.

I wouldn't recommend playing games in an attempt to build mental endurance. I used to play a lot of Starcraft 2 and Dota 2, and it mostly just sapped my motivation for other things.

Really?

I don’t really care much about winning or losing. I play them because they’re fun and because I can try novel approaches to solve novel problems.

The reward for me has never been about winning. It’s about being able to trying new things and see how it works in the game.

If I win great, if I don’t I’ll try again or play something else. If the reward is winning for you and you’re average than you’re statistically likely to be sad ~50% of the time. That probably will sap your motivation.

You can also play video games that teach you things which are marginally useful in your life e.g. Paradox Grand Strategy titles (History) or games like Factorio (Systems design / "Programming") or even TIS-100 (actual programming)

Funny enough, I spent a few weeks binging on a somewhat realistic civil war sim called "Ultimate General: Civil War" which I think teaches (civil war era) military tactics and military history quite effectively. I now know all of the famous civil war battles pretty well.

> Play video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.

I used to be better than average at Starcraft 2. Probably peaked around top ~1.5% in the world wide rankings.

My thoughts on this is that the vast, VAST majority of people who play a competitive game like Starcraft 2 will not get any benefit from it. Following this advice blindly would be a disaster for 99% of people.

As a former high ranking master league player, I would mostly dedicate my time to memorizing and mindlessly practicing build orders. All responses I made in the game to my opponent were born from literally thousands of hours of practice and memorizing how certain interactions in the games went. 1 Marauder beats 1 Stalker. 2 Marauders beats 3 Stalkers. 2 Marauders loses to 4 Stalkers. For every single game interaction possible. I doubt an actual full formed thought ever crossed my mind during gameplay.

That's great for just zoning out and crushing noobs, but as a top 1.5% player I was absolutely TERRIBLE when compared to even low ranking professional players.

Why? Because they spent time watching replays to understand their opponents and to meticulously analyze their mistakes and think about solutions.

I didn't do any of that. I just memorized popular strategies and got good enough at pressing certain keys in certain orders that I was considered a "master". But I didn't master anything really. What does that say about the 98% of players who were lower ranked than me? What does that say about the larger player pool of Starcraft 2 which don't even compete, but rather play single player or arcade?

I want to make a critical correction to the quote that prompted me to reply.

> Practicing video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.

The point I want to drive home is that concentrated, deliberate practice is the key to building mental fortitude.

Modern video games are a focus hack that works within the game but does not translate to non-dopamine activities. Meditation would be cleaner, but if you want a game for focus, I would suggest Go (the classic board game). Moreso than I think any other game, it encourages and rewards beneficial human traits like patience and concentration.

I think world-building games can help a little.

Making decisions and living with the outcome, letting things go and showing NPCs and other players what you built (especially if the community is supportive) - these skills are very transferable.

Me too.

One way to look at it is that it's a signal that you're working the wrong thing.

Something that's worked for me is to think of the contexts where you feel like you are motivated or productive, and then try to put yourself into those contexts. For example, on my own I have a hard time getting started and I get paralyzed by indecision. But when I'm on a team I feel like I can't let the other people down, and somehow the paralysis just disappears.

Good luck, and don't be too hard on yourself. You're a normal human.

Do you find that when you have to do something mentally unpleasant (such as homework back when you were in school / college, or doing your taxes, or whatever similar thing affect you), do you tend to space out? Or do you get a feeling in the pit of your stomach like you are about to be sent to the principal's office (to use an over-used analogy), and you find that you must do something else (that is pleasant) just to make that sickening feeling go away?

If it is the first (spacing out), that could be ADD/ADHD. If it is the second, then it could be fear of failure / depression. If it is neither, then you will need to find a way to re-train your mind, by forcing yourself to see hard problems through.

A professional may need to help you if it is the first two problems. But if it is the third one, the standard techniques is to do deliberate practice, starting off with mild problems and working yourself up through more difficult ones as time goes on (but going back to milder ones and spicing up your workflow with slightly more difficult than what your are used to). Kind of like interval training for physical exercise -- you don't just try to run slightly faster each time, you run at a sustainable pace and punctuate it with something above your abilities for short bursts.

Some people find that they can't do this without a personal trainer. For work type problems, you may need to team up with someone that can help coach you through.

Here's another analogy that I believe carries over. For much of my life, I didn't like tomatoes (except I liked ketchup, tomato soup, pasta sauce, etc). One day I got tired of picking tomatoes off my burgers, or out of a salad, and decided to eat them anyway. After doing this for a few months I got to where I could tolerate them, and eventually start liking them. Same thing with sour cream -- now I love it. And buttermilk. Got tired of throwing out buttermilk that I'd buy for making biscuits, so I taught myself to like it. Now I can't get enough of it.

Having spent my teens and early adult life with undiagnosed ADHD, it can manifest itself as depression and anxiety from constantly feel frustrated with yourself from not being able to focus or achieve your goals. Getting treated for ADHD may solve other problems.

And ADHD-like symptoms of difficulty focusing can themselves be comorbid with depression, and a non-stimulant medication like strattera may be able to help.

I shared some of my experiences with ADHD medication earlier in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920962

There are just a lot of things that I wish I had known.

I don't have a magic fix, but a few things that have worked for me, in different contexts:

- Remove your options. If possible, turn off your WiFi, router and phone. If I don't have an easy way to distract myself, it's easier for me to get "into the zone", and for my brain to really engage.

- Convince yourself to spend 5 minutes taking a stab at the problem. If you need to, set a timer. You can do anything for 5 minutes. And once you're 5 minutes in, the problem won't feel so massive

- Start writing down what needs to be done. Make a list, and then start making the list more granular by breaking the "big tasks" into "small tasks". Big tasks are frightening. Small tasks are easy to do one at a time.

- Put yourself in a new environment. If you procrastinate at home, take yourself out to a coffeeshop, or library where you can work. If you have a big enough house, have a "work room" and a "play room", and don't mix the two. Commit to not getting distracted in the work room.

- Surround yourself people you want to emulate -- here, productive people. If you're in uni, this is easy. If you're not, try to find discord channels, IRC channels, or whatever. It's always easier to be motivated when you're surrounded by other motivated people.

None of this is magic, and I don't want to pretend to be a paragon of efficiency (I'm on HN right now, after all). But the key is really to try SOMETHING new, if you aren't happy with your mental stamina -- and keep changing variables until you are.

I found "Surround yourself, people, you want to emulate " works very well for me, especially if I surround my self with people that I aspire to.

My experience is what you do after you get up in the morning have great impact all day long. I use appdetox on phone and webblock on chrome to block easier news/SNS apps for the day and only allow them or gaming for a fixed time at night as reward(after a while I find solving hard problems more rewarding than yhose shallow entertainment). I find it became easier to focus on hard things after starting doing this. If you do easy things at morning, the whole day is ruined. Also I run or swim at 5pm.

It was already mentioned in a sub-comment, but I think it deserves a more thoughtful top-level comment and a little bit of personal anecdote. (Edit to clarify: more thoughtful than the other top-level comment; the sub-comment was also very thoughtful. Edit 2 to add: another good top-level comment addressed this possibility while I was writing this response.)

I would seriously encourage you to consider an evaluation for ADHD, if you have not already. Easily giving up when confronted with challenges is a classic ADHD behavior, and it's often described and perceived as laziness. Having greater success under higher pressure is a classic trait as well.

I'm (obviously) not qualified to diagnose you, but I recognized something of myself in your description of the difficulties you're facing (so much so that the first thing I did before typing was find-in-page for ADHD just to see what had already been discussed).

It's possible the tendency to retreat from challenges is part of a feedback loop. You mention that your confidence suffers. This is more likely to discourage you from facing future challenges. Each challenge feels a little more out of reach, and each consequence increases the pressure.

One thing that a lot of undiagnosed adults don't know is that ADHD can present like as anxiety and depression. It can also look like fear and apathy. It's hard to spot, because we're accustomed to childhood symptoms, which are often a lot more disruptive.

If it helps encourage you to consult with your doctor (if you haven't already): a little over a year ago I was diagnosed. I've been adjusting treatment over that time, and it's still not perfect, but in that time I went from an anxious falling apart mess grateful to have a job at all, to taking on leadership of a team. (Obviously, a great deal of other things have improved along with that, but I'm trying to stay relevant to the question.) Side effects of my particular med (currently vyvanse) are non-existent, I'm just gradually working up to a dose that works for me. Even times of greater stress don't discourage me (though they can require more recovery time, but... that's normal?). There's been literally no downside.

Like I said, I'm in no way offering a diagnosis, but I would seriously encourage seeing someone who can. And if you're going that route, I'd also encourage doing some reading on how ADHD affects/presents in adults. The DSM is... well, entirely geared toward childhood diagnosis, and your doctor may rely on that.

Are you sure this isn't "self sabotaging", ie not trying hard so that you can tell yourself that failure isn't because you're not smart enough but because you didn't actually try?

This can be a common coping mechanism for people with "fixed mindset". For an overview of the "fixed" vs "growth" mindset research, see e.g https://fs.blog/2015/03/carol-dweck-mindset/

(This is some really fascinating research and I've talked to lots of people who grew up as "smart kids" that feel this describes at least part of their personality.)

You need to get a small win of some sort. It doesn't matter what. Just aim at the smallest win you can get on the work. If you fail at that, aim for a smaller win. There will be at least a tiny win you can manage. You will feel better. Then double down.

Was gonna say exactly this. Doing something small and actually accomplishing makes a huge difference because it tells your brain I am capable of doing things. From there it becomes easier to slowly raise the bar of what your brain thinks is doable and thus things that you'll psychologically be able to go ahead and do.

It's really important also to make sure you don't aim for things that are too hard and fail too often. A bit of failure is okay but if your ratio of failure to success too low you'll lose self confidence and it becomes harder to get into a sort of "flow" of progress.

Adderall

Sorry, had to crack the joke.

On a serious note, my answer would be: take an individualized approach. Here are some examples:

- Was your motivation damaged by decades of forced boring school? You need time to relearn enjoyment of learning

- Are you a nihilist? Seek therapy and a real reason to live with passion.

- Are you depressed, PTSD, etc? Seek help.

- Are you unhealthy? Change it.

- Do you genuinely have ADD or something that neurologically explains it? Seek help.

- Are your friends unmotivated like you? Seek different friends.

- Do you sleep poorly? Improve that.

- Do you have an addiction that messes your dopamine (or NE, 5-HT) levels (porn, cocaine, etc)? Get help.

In this era, we are overwhelmed with stimuli.

The worst form of stimuli are endless feeds of unstructured, unrelated content. And the most successful sites on the Internet have them. They're really entertaining, but then, when you want to grab a book and read it, you will have problems staying focused and finishing a full chapter. At least with RSS you had the chance to mark items as read and move on.

What you describe could be ADHD. But sometimes it's just being sleep deprived, eating unhealthy, and being exposed to too much stuff. Sometimes it's anxiety.

So what can you do? just unplug. Go for a hike, run or camping. Sleep well. No music, no Internet browsing in your phone. Just pay attention to your surroundings, breathe, let any anxiety go away. Then, go back to your stuff, but always practicing attention hygiene: don't expose yourself to too much stimuli.

Then, track your tasks, and make sure you finish them. Don't cheat by making new lists, or dropping tasks for no reason. Just make sure you stay on track with your plans.

If it's too much, start small: simple tasks, simple outcomes. Once you get better at it, commit to more complex tasks.

Some GABA supplement before sleeping can be good too. But you should ask your doctor about that first.

I like some of the other answers, but I'd like to add a potentially different filter on this situation. Sometimes different filters offer different kinds of insights into the same problem.

The thing that came to mind immediately when I read your concern is the big 5 personality traits. The big 5 is possibly the most thoroughly researched and supported concept in psychology. There's tons of info about it online.

Your situation, when looked at through the prism of the big 5 might be a combination of any of the following: low openness, high neuroticism, or high disagreeableness. You'd have to read a bit about these personality traits and do some introspection into which of these applies to your situation. You'd then need to look at the specific techniques to train the partiality traits you want. Fair warning, it's not generally realistic to actually change your personality type. But you can learn to change your behavior. For example a high neuroticism person might always be extremely anxious about public speaking, but they can learn skills to help them perform when necessary.

Related prior discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22124489 ("Procrastination is about managing emotions, not time (bbc.com")

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22096571 ("Ask HN: I don't want to be a worker any more I want to be a professional")

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20930439 ("how do you keep your programming motivation up?")

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903886 "Ask HN: How do you motivate yourself to keep working on a project? "

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19777976 "ask hn: how do you stay disciplined in the long run?"

Other replies have hinted at why this may be the case: ADHD, told you were going to excel/smart causing non-effort/try, failure adverse.

For me it was all of those and probably more that I'm not even aware of yet.

What did I do to over come?

First, I haven't fully. I struggle every day, and know that it is okay. Even after I decided to tackle the problem 10 years ago, I work at it.

For myself, I knew a key symptom that I had is I don't like to finish anything... like anything... no matter how small. A lot of it was rooted in my fear of failing. That's probably linked to the idea that I was supposed to be smart. I'm an engineer, good at math, all the classic things that cause parents to say - oh child shouldn't fail.

This showed up in my every day life. I realized I would never even finish my rice... there's always like 20% left. I was always starting a project and then simply moving on to the next. Never taking it to a specific end-goal.

So to tackle my problem of not finishing something, I started with the smallest thing - my bowl of rice. I started requiring myself to finish it. That last 20% was a struggle. I'd sit there and struggle. It wasn't the amount either; I would get less food, which did help, but I still had a lot of trouble. I'd get up and leave then force myself to go back.

I didn't allow any other requirement to enter. No other projects, no other personal goals. I had to finish my bowl. It was, one meal then one day, backslide, two days in a row, and it took me about 3-4 months for it to become a habit. I let it be the goal for another month or so before I finally told myself I accomplished this goal.

For once in my life, I finished something. I set a goal and completed it. F'ing bowl of rice. But it was mine.

From there I scaled it to a very small Rails project I could complete in 1 weekend, an online language dictionary for myself. It was stupid easy so I knew I could do it. My goal was to deploy it on Heroku and use it myself for some small language learning. Took me 3-4 weekends to fully deploy & self-use. But I did it, my first side project completed. A clear goal, achievable and finished.

It took me 6-12 months to even begin to feel I started tackling my problem. From there I slowly scaled and I've personally learned I can only do 1-2 things at a time to completion.

Best of luck to you. I only hope the best for you.

I shouldn't be giving advice because I'm probably worse about this than you, but I've read a lot of books on the subject and tried a lot of things. Some things I've had success with: - journal/Todo lists, just the act of writing about what I want to do seems to make it real, till I start procrastinating about journalling ;-/ - say "I want to" instead of "I have to" or "I need to". You do what you want right!? - set a timer, do some work, then reward yourself by setting a shorter timer and having some fun - get an accountability partner, schedule a call where you discuss each other's goals, bust their balls

Good luck finding a solution and if you do tell me how you did it!

Find something you care about.

It's hard to push through tough problems to achieve a goal that you don't care about achieving. The pressure you grew up in now needs to come from yourself, or more reasonably, the situations you put yourself in. For example: take the life's savings of every family member and friend you have, and go try to make more money with it. The pressure will surely arrive.

An alternative possibility: It may be that your career is not high on your priority list, and you'd rather make some money so that you can fund a passion, travel the world, raise a family, or do something else. If those are the things that you are passionate about, a promotion will not fill the hole where they are missing (for long)

Why do so many people suspect OP has ADHD? Isn’t it more common for people to give up when faced with hard problems than not? It usually takes experience and training to learn to become persistent at hard problems. I’m definitely much better at keep at a difficult goal now compared to my early 20s due to mindset change and experience. Seems backwards to assume it’s a medical problem at as soon as OP mentions that, and I feel the need to point out it’s a dangerous direction our society has slipped into assuming every imperfection with a person has to do with mental disorder.

Interesting, I feel like I have the same problem for the opposite reason - things I cared about came easy to me in HS and college, so I never learned to put in effort as much as others had to; if the task is daunting I am likely to just give up.

I found that what works well for me is breaking the task iteratively into (sometimes, ridiculously) small steps, writing them down (that is important for the approach to work, at least for me) and forcing myself to just do one small step at a time.

Interestingly, this approach affected my skillset for software development too... for example, on my current team I have a reputation for being good at debugging difficult issues, even though I dislike debugging and I'd rather never do it. I dislike it so much I always narrow down and break down the problem into very small parts, which apparently is a great approach to debugging.

Btw, another thing that helps me is playing challenging videogames. There was this article I can't find now about CRPG and action games, where you are either often rewarded for just sitting there, or actually have to learn a physical skill. I found that forcing myself to suck and improve a little bit in RTS and action games, instead of playing (awesome) CRPGs all the time, is a nice low stress way to learn to make effort :)

Only do something for 1 minute, focusing as hard as you can.

Then take a break.

Then try for 2 minutes.

Then take a break.

Repeat until you can focus for a long time :)

Hello, I can relate to that a lot. I don't usually comment on HN, but I'll give it a go on this one.

Also grew up on a high pressure environment, as in: "If you fight at school and lose, you'll get a second beating at home"

- If you can afford, seek professional help. Yeah, a therapist. It will help you to learn how you operate.

- Accountability mirror, from "Can't hurt me" book. Some of stuff in the book is meathead advice, but you're a smart guy, you'll be able to filter it out and adapt. The audiobook is great. Look it up.

- 3sec rule: If you want to do something, don't give yourself time to come up with an excuse not to, because you will convince yourself.

- Commit: Publicly say you'll do it, to the point you'll lose face if you don't. There you go, not doing the thing will hurt more than doing it and then you can trick yourself into not procrastinating.

For instance, I was offered a lead role many times, but refused. Until a day I said: "Fuck it, I'll take it". No time to convince myself otherwise. Now, If I back off or do a poor job, I'll lose face. And it turns out, once you start doing those apparently big things, you learn they are not really a big deal. Then you start feeling more confident.

Finally, be kind to yourself.

Cheers

Staying motivated to face difficult problems can be a challenge for lots of us. Although it can also be challenging to stay motivated if the task is too easy.

First thing I will mention is that my understanding is that your brain has a finite amount of energy/processing power available over the day or within a certain period. So if you can reduce some mental or physical energy expenditure from other things (for example, commuting takes a lot out of me personally) you may have more energy available for hard problems.

Another thing is that there are specific skills/strategies that are useful for solving hard problems. The biggest one is decomposing problems into smaller tasks. And I guess that OOP is now still unpopular these days with various groups, but object-oriented design has been a big help for me in terms of breaking larger problems down into subproblems and organizing information. That is a skill that you can practice and get better at.

The most basic way to decompose things is just to start typing a list of everything you need to do at a high level. Anywhere you can think of a smaller substep, fill that in.

Then when you are having trouble getting motivated, try to find one of the subtasks that you know how to do from your outline, tackle that, and hopefully that will give you momentum for a more challenging subtask.

Another strategy is just to make sure you are taking advantage of Google and all of the existing solutions out there.

And another thing, as far as the brain's available powers, having fuel is important. So things like skipping breakfast seem very questionable if you need to do heavy mental work in the morning. Coffee can help you get started a bit sometimes.

I have this (at least by the sound of it: if totally different, maybe something is helped by this anyway) (and had it for for 35 odd years). I was told I can ‘achieve anything’ during my childhood which, somehow is a signal to my brain to pick the things I definitely can do and leave the harder things because it might actually show I cannot ‘achieve anything’ (duh, ofcourse I can’t, but it is not a rational or even conscious thing anyway).

Luckily I found a mechanism to cope with that very early on; I build a ‘story’ around the task/project/thing that I want to do but also ‘prove to my brain’ I am ‘all that’ (so I don’t simply don’t do it as is the first instinct); basically to narrate that this is only the first step and it will probably be crap, but it will become that shiny perfection that was promised later on through iteration.

I do this with everything; cooking, software dev (where it is actually the normal way things work), hardware, management, sports, etc. Some things go ‘perfect’ the first time, most obviously do not, but they either become irrelevant or get better (and even perfect for some definition).

That way, I am mentally shielded from not doing them in the first place because of my mental block. This used to be (in my teens) an actual narrative with myself where I told myself a story how something would go; starting really badly and insignificant as possible and then building out that narrative up to castles in the sky. Coming back down I would then be able to start the journey at the bottom while genuinely believing I would get to the top ‘in some time’ (it really does not matter if you do; the starting and iterating matters the most imho). Now the process is automatic, but it still has that same feeling to start with; I will never get over it but I managed to cope.

Many answers assume that you have ADHD, that may be the case but here's another path to explore: undealt-with emotions.

Imagine you have a wire on your hand and you want to plug it to an electrical outlet that's on the wall right in front of you. You technically have all it takes to plug it. What if there's so much garbage between you and the wall that you can't reach to the electrical outlet? You can't plug the thing no matter how hard you try. Not that you're lacking something, but rather that some stuff gets in your way.

Emotions do get in the way. Some you may understand, some you may suspect, some you may not even be aware of. This is very common and you can work on these issues.. but probably not by yourself. If you decide that you're okay with discovering what's going on that you're not aware of yet (there always is some things we're not aware of), then a trained psychologist can help you a lot.

Oftentimes people suggest technics, tricks and whatnot to get around the symptoms. Maybe it's best to face the problem, understand it and fix it not with guilt but with kindness.

Good luck on your journey.

This may sound flippant but it’s deadly serious:

Just Do It.

Put your head down and do the work and stop not doing it.

I spoke to my counselor once about going to the gym and I was expecting to hear him talk about emotional issues that might be preventing me going etc and he said: “there are some things in life that you simply have to take action on. Going to the gym is one.”

Nothing more fancy to it that that.

Do the work. Take action.

This is not good advice and if anything can make people feel worse about themselves and have the opposite effect. Do you also think that an alcoholic should just "do it" (i.e. stop drinking) or a depressed person should just "get over it"? Where's the line (I know I took your example a bit further to prove a point).. Our brains are complex and it takes all kinds of psychological "tricks" to make progress on certain things.. In the scenario posted, making tiny almost insignificant progress, over and over, is a good way to go. I also like (depending on what I'm having a hard time getting started with) outlining my work, especially if its writing or a presentation - write headings, keywords, thoughts... rearrange a bit here and there and in the end you realise you only have to beef out words into sentences and the whole thing is almost done and being at that stage you get a huge win and the remainder is a breeze. So different approaches. Even with your career though, putting an actual short and medium term plan together for yourself (and maybe sharing it with a friend or family member) can help tremendeously!

I don’t agree with your response.

>> Do you also think that an alcoholic should just "do it" (i.e. stop drinking) or a depressed person should just "get over it"?

False equivalence.

Not doing work is neither depression nor alcoholism.

If you find you get to a point in life where essentially you have fallen into lazy habits then you fix it by taking action.

>>> Not doing work is neither depression nor alcoholism.

It definitely can be as a result of depression. I don't think we have enough information to rule out things like depression.

There can be multiple reasons for your behavior.

What I think could help you the most is reading about schema therapy[1]. It's a therapeutic method which says we all carry certain lifetraps which we acquired during childhood.

Some lifetraps: - abandoment: you are afraid of being abandoned by a loved one - worthlessness: because of the way your parents treated, you feel that you don't have any value. You can't understand why anyone would love you, for example. - failure: you believe you can't accomplish anything in life

There are a few more.

I found this book very helpful in understanding Schema Therapy and the lifetraps that apply to me: https://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Your-Life-breakthrough-be...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_therapy

There are some good theories regarding delayed gratification and behavioral modifications you might find useful.

First, how good you are a choosing to wait to receive a reward later has a strong bearing on how difficult of a problem you can solve, because working on a problem is what feels rewarding, solving the problem is. To that end there are certain habits you can pick up that greatly help with modifying your behavior, and provide a sense of success before the overall problem is solved.

The first thing I recommend is to make your own lists of short tasks that need to be completed. This in itself can be satisfying because writing the list is effectively your first finished task.

Next, after completing a few tasks you need to reward yourself with something you enjoy. It shouldn't take much time to do, but it should be something you won't get easily board of. Continue rewarding yourself after a set number of tasks. Generally, you should be getting a reward about once an hour to start out, not more. After a few days, maybe a week, increase the number of tasks you must complete for a reward. Continue increasing the number of tasks per reward every few days. If you find yourself losing motivation, then decrease the number of tasks required.

Just a few tips, the reward should be something that you can do quickly and that you can resist doing while you're still working. The reward should be mildly habit forming, but not addictive. Also, if it's food related you might want to make it small enough that it won't make you fat. A favorite candy can be a good choice so long as you can make the rewards small but still satisfying. It also shouldn't be something complicated or distracting to other people. If it's too complicated that can kill your own productivity. It also helps if you take a short break like 5 minutes per reward or at least take short breaks a few times a day even without a reward.

Whenever there's something I don't want to do, I say, "I can do it for 15 minutes." And I book in the next 15 minutes I can find. Sometimes it takes a few starts, but that approach has yet to let me down.

Also, I book in an hour a day for "productivity" -- and literally I just try and knock out as many short-tasks I can think of in that time. Anything under 3 minutes, time to do it. Take out the trash, send an email, fold clothes, whatever... I just try and smash out as many things in that hour as I can.

I used to struggle with procrastination. I was the kid would start his homework at 8 PM on Sunday. The thing about that is more often than not you're fucked if something takes longer than you expected.

And now... I rarely get caught off guard with tasks, I know pretty soon if something is going to take more time than I'm expecting it to take.

Don't worry about how talk the mountain is, just take a few steps and see where you get.

I have a tough time concentrating on hard problems too. I don't have ADHD, I'm just scatterbrained and easily distracted. When I do hit that "zone" I can stay in it for hours, but I rarely get to that point on any single problem. Here are some things I do:

Go for a walk. Don't face the problem head on specifically, just absorb the gist of the problem and then go for a walk and let your sub conscious deal with it, then about half way through your walk, start talking out loud about it. This works well for me when I'm stuck on something.

Learn what real problem solving is. Look up the Wikipedia article on Troubleshooting, it's fantastic and has some great insights.

The main thing about problem solving is not to be overwhelmed by the entire problem. Break it down into its most basic forms, and then solve a part of it, then work toward the solution. Don't try to build all of the solution at once. Iterate toward it. It works.

HTH YMMV.

> I don't have ADHD, I'm just scatterbrained and easily distracted.

What's the difference?

> When I do hit that "zone" I can stay in it for hours, but I rarely get to that point on any single problem.

Maybe you're already aware, but that's very common with ADHD.

The difference is that I can overcome it with will power. A person with ADHD cannot.

You might try something like:

* write down the smallest next possible step towards this goal. It should be something you're very close to knowing how to do already. It doesn't matter if it leaves you still a long away from the ultimate goal.

* set a short timer (e.g. 20 minutes) and work on it until the timer goes off.

* reward yourself with something fun.

* repeat.

I'd add to this: * change. if you get stuck, change your world. go for a walk, get fresh eyes. put a few plants on your desk... or take some away. Sometimes you need to mentally bump your mind out of a rut to see why you were stuck in a dead end loop that made you give up.

I'm a big fan of writing down micro-goals, and then crossing them out when I get it done. Even if it's badly done, that just leads to another micro-goal, which is to improve it in some specific way. Sometimes when I do something that is not on the list, maybe I was too lazy to write it down as a micro-goal, I will then make a note of it, just so I can cross it out. It makes such a big difference to my day to be able to see a bunch of things crossed out. I am just very forgetful otherwise and don't remember what I did and start to think that I didn't do anything at all.

Creatives use this technique (Pomodoro) to overcome procrastination and stay effective to achieve their goals.

I have a video discussing using this technique with Agile Scrum. As a developer, we can borrow ideas from other disciplines! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCPTc79oVg8

Regarding motivation, I‘ve had good results with Cannabigerol - just like CBD, it’s a non-psychoactive compound of hemp, but it’s effects are different. It’s a powerful neuroprotectant (suspected to promote new brain cell formation), and for some reason it makes me super interested in technical problems and their solutions, and with it comes the motivation to code and tinker. Near infrared radiation of the forehead also helped [1], but for me that is more for mental capacity and less for motivation. For me, Co-enzyme Q10 also helps a bit with motivation, as does chocolate (obviously a short term hack, and I don’t eat it often as I get dependent easily).

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042852

The problem is that you can fail if you try. And failing at anything is a scary thing. So its easier not to try. And there's comfort in mediocrity. And your brain will reward it.

The trick is that you should accept failure as part of the process, a necessity.

Most people will get catch a cold or flue during the year, and so is with mental health. Don't expect not get down at some points.

But you should always treat yourself as someone you want to help. To that end, take a meta view of yourself.

Here are some tips:

1) Look into personality types, and figure out which one you score high at. Use it as guide. Nothing is definitive, but could provide you some insight into why you behave the way you do.

2) Fresh air and exercise is important. Spend at least an hour outside every day, walk or whatever. How long you can walk, is actually a very good indicator of your health, and life expectancy.

3) Try Yoga, the really good programs, combine movement with breath, and even a bit of meditation. It will improve mental clarity, and help with flexibility. Like this one. http://katepotteryoga.ca/namaste-tv-show/

4) Good dental hygiene. Bad Gums can cause serious inflammation, and health issues. Make sure you fix any teeth problems quickly. And don't smoke.

5) Good sleep hygiene. Black out windows a night, and make sure you are get fresh air into the room. C02 levels can build up in your room during the night. And make sure if you snore, to get medical help with it.

6) Realize that you soon will be dead. And many greater, smarter people than us, have lived this life before. Read or Listen to books they wrote. It will often contain their best insights summarized.

Like for example some stoic philosophy, which is great at helping visualize the worse case scenario, and accept it. Marcus Aurelius is great. This is a fun series.

"The philosopher's guide to happiness" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVA8jX9KQcE&list=PL785793324...

7) Make Future plans, and daily to do lists. The process of writing things down, focuses you on what you need to get done. It really does help. Seize the day!

8) 25 minute timer, 5 minute breaks.

Perhaps your mental laziness is an unconcious way in which your mind is telling you that you are not in the right track. Since you grew up in a high pressure it seems that now you need an opportunity to live, for some time, under low pressure conditions in order to obtain a new vision about what to do in the future.

Edited: googling I found someone recommended the book the slight edge, and a review is here that contains the main ideas: https://www.amazon.es/Slight-Edge-Jeff-Olson/dp/1626340463#c..., look for Daisy's review.

Q: "How do I overcome mental laziness?"

A: Do the thing you feel you're suppose to do, and not the thing that you're currently doing.

It really is that simple. While you have spent the time writing about how not to be mentally lazy and reading comments on possible answers, you've could've - knocked out a chapter or two in a certification book - built that module you've pushed aside - pursue working on a weakness that you feel is holding you back

Fortunately/unfortunately, the onus falls on you to reach your goals (whatever it may be). So, just do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

Perhaps the problems you want to solve are too hard. In this regard, I really like Jonathan Blow's advice [1].

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XAu4EPQRmY

Take breaks, dont expect to solve it at once. It is ok not to solve hard problem today. Keep coming back to it and keep mix the hard task with smaller tasks. Solving few smaller tasks as breaks from the big hard one helps you to keep confidence in yourself up.

When you have vague idea of a problem, keep thinking about. This is time when thinking while walking somewhere is more beneficial then just sitting at desk. Your mind is less "restricted".

Also, it is normal to feel frustrated or depressed or ineffective while solving hard problem. Managing these emotions is part of the task, having them does not make you lesser. But when they are getting too much, take a break.

It all comes down to mindfulness.

If you keep doing the same things, you'll keep getting the same results. Meditation can rewire you for mindfulness - and that doesn't always mean sitting and meditating - but everyone should have a practice. Get out into nature, ride a bike, learn how to play guitar. Work on something completely different than APIs/IDEs/OSes/hacking.

I also recommend THC. Weed candy in particular, when I take about 10mg, I get a constant flow of interesting ideas and correlations for hours afterwards.

When you attain that mindfulness it's easier to guide your mind where you want it (in this case, solving technical problems). Good luck.

Set time aside where you won’t do anything except your task. Even 15 minutes helps. No big deal spending 15 minutes on something, right? Get a stack of sheets of paper and a pencil. Start laying thoughts down, some bullet points and a basic diagram. Imagine a bit how you’d implement it. Concurrently open a text editor and type some code sketches, non working code that carries a bit of the structure you’re thinking about. Go back and forth between paper and code, diagram, write down bullet points that occur to you. You’ll find gaps in your thoughts, you’ll be compelled to fix them. And so you’re on your way.

Laziness isn't always "lazy". It can be fear of failure or fear of wasting your time. Learn to value small successes rather like completing a chapter or incremental increases in knowledge rather than waiting for the euphoria of "I completed the thing!" That has probably helped me more than anything and prevented a lot of frustration when learning/doing something new. Also, say "I'll work on it only a half hour and then stop" sometimes you'll find you are enjoying or at least appreciating what you're doing and keep coming a bit (or a lot) longer.

1. Every seemingly hard problem can be broken down - or at least, approximated - by a series of easier problems. Do the easier problems.

2. Separate the thoughtful from the mechanical - some tasks need you to shut down your thinking and just wing it. Like installing a new computer or a development environment or boilerplate code and all that. You solve these with time: put in an hour and it will be done. Just tell yourself that as time passes, so will this issue.

On the other side are problems which require thinking rather than doing. You solve these by concentrating and shutting out noise.

Mixing the two types of actions is devastating.

I had the exact same issue facing hard problems in my work. I noticed that my main issue was keeping focus. My solution was to introduce on distraction free 90 mins slot of work in the morning (my most productive time) to tackle the hardest problems. No e-mails, no phone and no de-railing to other topics. The results so far have been great. The inspiration came from Deep Work [1] by Cal Newport. The book describes the philosophy behind it.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00X47ZVXM/

Lots of good possibilities here. My own experience has been that when I'm more physically fit (eating, sleeping, etc), I'm better mentally fit. And when I'm more mentally fit, I'm more spiritually fit (for whatever definition of "spirituality" you want). When I feel one is lagging, I usually find part of the problem in the layer below. And that fixing that causes the next layer up to flourish better. Irrationally, emotional fitness seems to weave in and out of those three in irrational ways. :)

You're suffering from a low trait conscientiousness. It's going to get you in a lot of trouble and drive the main line of suffering in your life on so many levels.

There's nothing else as important in your life as fixing this. It's going to be difficult. Probably the hardest thing you've ever done in your life.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/raising-your-...

Seriously: exercise. You will have more energy, feel better, and be mentally shaprer. Exabrial said it better, I just wanted to reiterate it. It's had an excellent impact on my life.

The financial system is a mess these days... I think being lazy is a good thing. Just find a 9 to 5 job and do the bare minimum work that you need to be able to eventually retire.

Don't waste your life chasing success. Success is completely random.

The journey to learning this terrible fact will teach you a lot of things, none of which will make your life any better. It's far better to be a lazy idiot. Stupidity and laziness are very useful tools for succeeding in our modern economy. Lazy people don't get burned out.

Your questions are answered in the thread, which is a pretty significant feat to overcome (I ditto the pomodoro method, exercise, and higher expectations). That said, laziness is not all bad. Keep some of it in case you need it. Given sufficient motivation, I recommend aligning your productivity with meaningful outcomes. If you can't, you will be back here looking for another solution in not much time with a bigger problem. But then again, there are worse things in life than being lazy.

> I grew up in a high pressure environment, where a lot is expected from you.

Same, and university and career too... I wrestle with the same problems.

Basically, I think it's reasonable to give up if you don't enjoy working on the problem or can't find satisfaction in it.

If externally motivated it's harder. Here you'll want to focus on techniques to force yourself to do things.

Otherwise check in with yourself regularly about what you want and why you're doing things. If you get alignment with your work then things come easy.

> I grew up in a high pressure environment, where a lot is expected from you.

Talk to a therapist. You should find out which experiences from the past trigger your “laziness”. The past high pressure situations trigger a pattern in you. Discover the pattern, you’ll be able to understand why certain tasks cause the anxiety. Once you know where it comes from and why it happens, you can overcome that. Sometimes just a simple talk with a therapist can help, no need for pills.

Take a look at Dr peterson personality test 'understand myself'. Maybe you have a open personality also named creative and it often work in opposition do industriousness.

In that case maybe your are more suited to chaotic endeavor where you can thrive in the unexpected while other drown into it.

Let's say you get a new job, are you at your best at the beginning where everything is new or have you better energy when things are settled and in theirs place ?

I have a hard time finding such personality tests helpful. What job would a trained SWE do if he discovers his high openness? Switch from Java to Javascript?

Work on short term contract where the ability to grasp things quickly is more important that dutifulness.

A cool job I heard was technology assessment for corporation that want to buy another compagnie, you look into the technology to see if it actually does what it say, what is the amount of tech debt, etc. You make a report and then you move on to the next.

You can try pomodoro timers technique. You try to focus for only 25 minutes at a time and then give yourself some slack. Hopefully after you will see what you achieved in those 25 focused minutes will motivate you to repeat that exercise. I use FocusBit app for that, but there're plenty of pomodoro timers, you name it. The main trick is to get a ticking timer in front of you if nothing else can motivate you.

Read this and thank me later.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

Hey. I literally have struggled with this and found a way to help turn the corner. I wrote about it only yesterday here: https://davidthorpe.dev/kick-the-shit-out-of-procrastination...

I hope it helps. Feel free to reach out if you want to chat since this is a topic very close to home.

I have this too, but one day a boss told me: "That's fine, we need someone like you in our research department, you start a lot, have many ideas, let others finish them if they turn out valuable. But try to think about what you can solve today, think about your grand vision in 3 years, what do you need to do today to get started on that? That would help."

> I have realized that I easily give up when I face a hard problem.

Watch a master tackle a hard problem. Copy their resilience and enthusiasm. I've done this for a few years and it taught me to be patient and focused. Also, leading requires responsibility. To gain a sense for leadership, try teaching and helping others. Show them how you solve problems.

You need to break the problem down into chunks with SMART goals. Then you need to define intermediate milestones which you complete within your allocated time period. For example, do a design do before lunchtime. No doc. No lunch. Higher order needs such as food or going home quickly help focus the mind.

Maybe it's not clear to you the possible reward you can get from exploring your idea, solving the problem, delivering what is expected etc. So the task itself becomes meaningless or purposeless. I think this topic has a lot of touchpoints with procrastination, even though they are different things.

Try focussing on smaller chunks of 25 minutes session and take a break. There is a good Coursera course on "learning how to learn", which talks about how our brain learns and retains information. They also talk about different technique, which directly addresses mental laziness.

Slighty off topic; Is it me or is this whole era paralyzed by mental laziness? We have so much input and little dopamine hits that putting in hard work is easily forgotten, since you only have to look at your screen to be ‘pleased’. Curious if anyone some have opinions about this.

Some people say it's becoming impossible to get bored now. I'm trying not to follow my reflex of going to HN/Reddit/YT every time I feel even slightly bored but it's too easy. Eating breakfast - HN, going to sleep - YT, tj book is a bit boring - reddit. I'm 19 and although I didn't spend my childhood with a tablet, I've had a smartphone since I was 13 or so. I have no comparation but I think some part of me "went numb" because every time I feel a need of doing something I feed it with too many engaging but meaningless stories and the possibility of motivation just goes away. And since my phone is always with me it's like a permanent state. I just don't know anymore what it is like not to know what to do and suddenly feel motivated to do something. Instead I have to force myself to read that Haskell book I wanted to read for 2 months despite the fact that I just love (or had loved?) learning new things.

You might also want to consider the possibility that you’re a lazy person who doesn’t have great potential. This is the conclusion I came to about myself and it has actually made my life a lot easier. No more stressing about not achieving anything, etc.

I tried Bacopa for a short while. It really helped clear the mental fogginess but shot up my blood pressure. I have much better results with

1. Timely sleep

2. Exercise (cardio or weights)

Note: Exercise takes 2-3 days before it shows results but after that I threw away the Bacopa (high BP was scary).

Is is really laziness or perceived inadequacy? It is super easy to fall into the trap of you are lazy. Instead ask, is the expectation that you feel justified or are you measuring yourself against something that is not sustainable.

Whatever it is that you feel you should do but don't want to, do the smallest thing that you can get yourself to do, even if it's essentially symbolic e.g. if you have a yard full of pine cones to clean, pick up one.

This is a symptom of ADD in extremis. Take the other advice here about trying harder, but if it doesn't work consider looking at what ADD entails and ask whether any of your other behaviours fit that description.

I keep a small whiteboard by my desk. When I have to get 'unstuck' on some problem (I am a software maintenance engineer, so I solve problems all the time) I start to sketch the problem.

Works for me. Things get unstuck.

What’s an example of a hard problem you recently gave up on?

Consider that you may be in the wrong career. Ask yourself: what is the thing you're ready to charge at? What is top of mind for you?

The food that we eat can make us lazy. Try to change and see if there is any difference. For me it’s fried, sweet and bread (as far as I discovered)

Get some quality sleep. Seriously. I thought I was mentally lazy, it turns out I was just exhausted from chronic sleep deprivation.

Read a good book about procrastination, that's what I think you have. I read one by Nils Salzgeber, very good.

I'd recommend reading Angela Duckworth's "Grit". It helped me overcome the same challenge.

don't work alone.

have a chat with a colleague and try to discuss the problem with him/her. maybe they already solved the issue, or have an interesting insight to move forward into the solution.

and be ready to have a working solution instead of a perfect solution.

Are you lifting? Are you eating clean following the macros calculated for your goal?

Treat it as any other addiction. Easiest way to overcome it is to simply, stop.

There are countless forums, help lines, government/private programs for addiction and it still exists.

The power is within and wholly dependent on you. A microdose of LSD occasionally with a focus on changing this aspect of yourself might help.

I've lived with ADHD for about half of my life. You may or may not have ADHD, but what you're describing sounds pretty similar. Here're a few things I do.

0. Rexamine physical health. In the past two years, I have been diagnosed with sleep apnea and low testosterone (I'm a guy). Having those two treated has been almost miraculous. The ADHD is still very real, but I find I can fight the inattentiveness if I've had a good night's sleep. (And, I guess not coincidentally, a good night's sleep for me is between 6 and 7 hours on a CPAP. I can rarely make it to 8 hours. Again, the ADHD is real.) I've also been examining my diet, my weight, my activity level and other physical changes I can make.

1. Be constructively self-critical and responsible for your actions, but not self-destructive. I shouldn't accept failure from myself due to lack of attentiveness/motivation, but that's not a license to tell myself that I'm an intrinsically, irredeemably bad person. This may be a cliche in SV, but with ADHD or the feelings you're describing, every failure really is a learning opportunity. Your feelings of lack of motivation are not anyone else's fault, but they're not yours either. However, only you can take the initiative to make the situation better.

2. Think through the activities you do where you actually do have quite a bit of clarity and focus. I'm guessing there's something you do that just makes time seem to melt away. See if there's a way to harness what interests you in that activity, and see if you can apply it in a constructive way. I have two: playing RTS games and driving or doing some other fairly monotonous activity that nonetheless requires attention and focus. Playing RTS games has actually helped me develop strategies to remember to do things, and driving long distances suggested to me that if I constrain my environment in certain ways, I can actually be quite productive and attentive.

3. Use some strategies/invent your own.

- I find that writing down checklists is a huge help. It makes the big problems crumble into small manageable bricks. (For checklists, I've started literally putting notes in VS Code in a markdown file, and then using the Markdown Preview Enhanced extension, which shows an interactive, two-way bound rendering on the right pane of my screen.)

- Bootstrap the right mindset every day. I put a few post-it notes around my monitor, bathroom mirror or other places that I'll see to remind me how to deal with life. I put enough up that they'll help me without making me feel overwhelmed. This strategy is also useful for any self-control issues you may have, which usually goes hand-in-hand with a lack of motivation/feeling overwhelmed by big problems. When I make a good decision based on a reminder from the past, it's a fun feeling. These good feelings can form a sort of virtuous cycle where you find yourself being a bit more disciplined than you have been.

- Quit social media. I've entirely cut out Twitter and I only use Facebook Messenger. I don't miss any of it. I visit HN more now, and use the "attentiveness" features in my profile. This may seem drastic, but it's helpful.

- If you can't quit something (YouTube, for instance), use some sort of blocker that will keep you locked out for a time. I edit my /etc/hosts file, although there are more automated tools that can do this kind of thing.

- Read up on tactics people use for things like speed reading or note-taking or other organizational and personal management skills. Then put them into practice. I've started using a RocketBook for note-taking, and it's wonderful. I use a specific note-taking method called the Cornell Method [1], and I find my focus and comprehension when learning big new topics is much higher. Find what works for you, and implement it.

- Trap yourself into pro-productivity habits, not anti-productivity ones. Eliminate any distractions or interactions when you're doing productive work; maximize the number of distractions when you're doing unproductive things (like getting so far into YouTube's recommendation algorithm that you watch a Japanese guy make hard objects out of bread or fingernails - this may or may not have happened to me). I set timers for that stuff and otherwise try to harass myself as much as possible. When I'm working, I set Do Not Disturb mode on anything supporting it, I turn off other notifications (within reason - I'd recommend you still respond to your boss/client, for instance). Look into things like the pomodoro method, where you work for 25 mins and take a 5 minute break, and see if you can increase the productive time.

4. Find something you think you can't do, and then try to do it and don't give up. Steve Jobs once said, "Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use." [2] My experience has shown this is quite true. We make our own luck. I've learned that with enough effort, that feeling feeling in the pit of my stomach that coincides with the thought "I don't know how I can tackle this problem" has almost always given way to the feeling of victory when I actually do solve the problem. I haven't had 100% success, of course, but I always frame the lack of success as TODOs to revisit later. I have my current job because I did this, and it's the best job I've ever had with the best team I have ever worked with. Once you do a single thing you thought you couldn't do, your perspective on life does change somewhat.

5. Make change gradually. I didn't take a magic pill and have all problems in my life solved. In fact, I can't do this - I'll be dooming myself to failure. If I try a new exercise regimen or trying to form habits or something like that, I do them one at a time. I find it hard to cope otherwise. My wife is the opposite - she gets motivation from shocking herself into a new routine, but I just can't handle that approach. I set major goals on the order of years, milestones on the order of months, and then individual strategies and tactics on weeks or days.

6. Find the positives of your situation. Unlike most people who have a basic intuition about how to accomplish complex tasks, I have devote my own brainpower to it. However, this has resulted in me developing an almost scientific process for improvement, which most normally motivated/attentive people don't have. There were people I graduated college with who had no issues with ADHD and were far ahead of me in terms of organizational skills and the ability to self-manage. However, through continual work over the years I've surpassed many of them in accomplishments. Career accomplishments are not a measure of a fulfilled life, of course, but making genuine contributions to fellow humans (even if those are fairly small but real) is a good feeling that is hard to overstate.

7. Try to control your emotions without suppressing them or letting them run wild. I find that a lot of the source of my "mental laziness" actually doesn't involve the mind at all, but my emotions. I have to engage the mind to counteract the emotions I experience, and when I do, the strong emotions holding me back (e.g. fear, anger, boredom, despair) are actually not that severe. Putting emotional experiences into words is a simple strategy that can be helpful. Our brains have a sophisticated neocortex which can handle complex reasoning, including linguistic reasoning. Our emotions are thought to be processed and generated by our limbic systems, which are present in most vertebrates and is pre-linguistic (though is very much involved in vocalization of emotional tone, even in non-humans). I've found that the higher functions of our brains can actually put the lower functions in their place when warranted.

8. Use therapy and other resources to help you. Therapists can absolutely help. You will find there are probably treatments that you can do that will help, and many of them do not involve medication. A therapist can be especially helpful at determining the causes of why you feel the way you feel, and may be helpful in developing strategies to overcome these issues. A therapist can also be a shortcut to some of the experimentation I mentioned above. They are often aware of explicit strategies that work for many people, and those might directly help you or might be a good seed that grows into something unique for you. And it's sometimes helpful to be forced to put your thoughts and attitude into words for another human being, who can synthesize it and review it with you.

This list has ballooned from a few planned points, but I hope it helps. You can vanquish this problem. I think you would be surprised at how much you can accomplish by putting forth just a little bit of intentional effort in the right ways.

[1] http://lsc.cornell.edu/study-skills/cornell-note-taking-syst... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw&t=38s

You need a good behavioral model to understand why you do the things you do. It’s best if you create your own, based on your particular strengths and tendencies, by researching about behavior and keeping a journal to accelerate your learning like a field scientist.

But here’s a quick general model to get started:

1. Consider 4 drivers of behavior: Need Levels (serotonin/oxytocin), Activation Level (norepinephrine/stress vs relaxation rest), Energy Level (glucose/glycogen vs insulin spikes and energy conservation), Drive/Learned Behavior (dopamine/learned reward behavior vs helplessness).

2. If you have big needs, ie you are needy because of say chronically low serotonin levels, you will be more desperate to seek pleasure, even if that runs counter to your stated goals (stay up late binging, even though it will lower your ability to perform at work).

3. You need energy to mentally process, so to be a high performer at work, you need to pattern your life to have max energy at work. So exercise and eat well to be energetic between 9-5. This might mean addressing general neediness, otherwise you will keep doing destructive behavior outside work, that will harm your performance. You won’t go to the gym, won’t eat the healthy food because you are too busy addressing desperate pleasure.

4. If you don’t improve your general energy level, you will tend to overuse stress elevators, like caffeine and harsh self-talk, but over the long run that will impair your health, make you physically weaker, while also impairing accurate self-awareness (because it becomes too necessary for you to believe good things about yourself even if false).

5. Your learned approaches to solving problems, aka getting rewards, have to be trained by you. Dopaminergenic systems that deliver ‘drive’ when you are confident the outcome will result in success. You need to learn how to approach challenges at work to get immediate rewards of serotonin and oxytocin. For example, how to approach your work to get approval from colleagues, or how to approach your work to receive intrinsic reward like problem simplification (which rewards by lowering the mental burden of the problem), or aesthetic beauty creation etc...

You might see in your life several problem behaviors through this model, but one that stands out to me is related to #5, you don’t have effective strategies to get more immediate reward out of hard problems. That’s typical, especially in people with high standards. When training people to be more effective, I teach them to break up hard problems into steps, but also to appreciate the process of working on problems from different angles. Because then they start to see short term rewards that they can achieve in the process of working toward their goals... What is your process for analyzing the problem? What is your process for collaborating on the problem with others? What tools do you use? This way you will find that a hard problem, that initially looks like a barren forest with a single reward after a 100 miles of journey, is transformed into many pockets of orchards where you can look for trees with low hanging fruits of short term pleasure... Each day you get up and look for fruit, you can sustain yourself on a single hard problem for years like this, speaking from personal experience.

Experiment with the tone of The inner voice you use to overcome it

Do the things you need to do.

Don’t let your brain try to trick you out of it.

Make it a game to find goals that excite you.

Don't give up.

tl;dr: Role play a robot.

Try to block "thinking". Every time you catch yourself "thinking about" instead of doing, stop thinking and do something related to the task. Remove all distractions. Put your phone in another room, close your e-mail and do the smallest thing you can do to move your task forward, don't "think about", just do it, as if tou were a robot. Once you get tired, be satisfied with your progress and relax (release your thinking from prison, Now it is allowed to come in). Practice "I must do this" in other areas of your life as well, without thinking, until you develop grip.

I hate to recommend drugs to anyone but they worked for me

Reading through these posts there are many solutions, most of them are vague -- no clear method of implementation. I'll offer an actionable strategy which I have been using to progress from a depressed late 20something dependent on family charity, to graduating a competitive coding bootcamp and building prototypes for a startup.

The key is to exercise those proper faculties of mind -- a few simple exercises are cold showers, long-distance running, and meditation.

Cold showers have taught me how to overcome the initial difficulties; to continuously put oneself into a position of discomfort, then use powers of consciousness to develop acceptance is a powerful practice. There are various methods to implement this habit -- at the end of my shower, I set a timer for 5 minutes and progressively drop the temperature whenever I acclimate to the current state. The game I play is to spend the longest amount of time in the coldest water by dropping progressively quicker during those 5 mins. Challenging yourself is a reward within itself.

Where cold showers build mental strength in the domain of environmental changes, long-distance running builds endurance. As a side-effect, there is a strong correlation between mental health and cardio exercise, aerobic exercise generates BDNF which acts as a precursor for neurogenesis. Depressed people often have smaller hippocampi, and BDNF literally grows neurons in the hippocampus, where we store memory. There are many other evidence-based positive side effects. For implementation, I would suggest the Maffetone method, which teaches users to never push to hard, as it leads to burnout; but instead to progressively build up endurance by exercising at a comfortable rate. The only tool necessary is a heart-rate monitor, and any type of cardio activity can be substituted. His method is used successfully by ironmen and triathlete winners. It's a method to learn patience.

Samadhi is a state characterized as intense one-pointed concentration established through meditation. It is impossible to practice meditation without practicing those steps which lead towards a meditative mind. The yoga sutras of patangili provide a programmatic method towards this state. What is practiced by most popular western yoga is the practice of asana, or preparing the body for meditation. Following asana is pranayama, which is the regulation of breath through various practices. It is thought that breath control is the vector which enables us to manage the rest of our autonomic system, which enables our own internal state to control how we react to events -- the fundamental basis for freedom. It is difficult to discover teachers for these practices. Practically, I would suggest searching for Wim Hof's breathing method as a good introduction or entertaining exercise. Michaël Bijker is for those more serious.

Overall, implementing any one exercise should help you towards your goal, together they provide a strong basis. I've found scheduling to be effective for consistency. I would be lying if I did not mention I received help from a pharmaceutical as well. Having developed non-productive habits in the past, the pharmaceutical helped as a motivational catalyst, although medicine in relation to mental health is not magic, it requires effort and consistency to develop healthy habits.

exercise!

I'm unsure what aspects we are talking about. Is it one or more of the following?

0. ADD. (lack of motivation to execute, lots of plans, many unfinished projects)

1. Inability to buckle-down, focus, and complete mentally-exhausting, complex work.

2. Analysis paralysis. (Fear of failure, criticism, or choosing the wrong approach, so not progressing to avoid the previous.)

3. Fear of responsibility/loss of respect. (Leading is responsibility; owning problems, results, and team support. It's not being always right or doing 100% of the thinking.)

4. Imposter syndrome. (Having the skills but still afraid of being unqualified.)

5. Fear of being a novice. (Fear of new skills, roles, and/or things.)

Before offering unsolicited advice, I think it's better to dig into what are the brutally-honest underlying concerns.

> may have become an issue because I grew up in a high pressure environment, where a lot is expected from you

Interestingly, some of the most successful people I've encountered seemed to be operating out of expectation from various people - family, peers etc. I guess different people react differently. And there's also the question of happiness. I knew a shit hot young lawyer who, having worked extremely hard non-stop from her early teens to her late twenties decided all she really wanted to do was live in the home counties and have children, rather than sacrifice pretty much every waking hour in exchange for >£100k pa.

Lookup Wes Watson on youtube.

Praise the Lord, second commented post on Hacker News. (i try not to capitalize i) i had been diagnosed with OCD, ADHD, and eventually Bipolar Schizoaffective disorder. I had been on all kinds of meds including Haldol, antidepressants, and amphetamines like adderall. My psychiatrist back in 2003 said i was a 9 out of 10 of the worst cases he had seen. I can now focus fine for over 12 hours, yet haven't even had coffee nor any medications in over 5 years. One big thing that helped me was that my dad here would start playing hymns on the piano and i would sing along, and my concentration eventually went up to about 3 or 4 hours, then eventually took up the piano myself and now i feel normal. Another big part was being able to spend time in prayer, fasting, and service to God and others. This helped me to have much more peace with what i choose to be doing, instead of feeling like i am wasting my life when something more important may be available. I am far from perfect but the Lord has been good to me, and i want to share He does miracles like always (i think this is kind of cool https://youtu.be/Pw9iSO7rUUY ). I do want to share how God has helped me through Jesus Christ, if i can help somehow please let me know in Jesus name.

u just need enough sleep

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