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I would like to thank all the wonderful people like you who created such amazing products for me to use. I am sorry to hear that you have experienced mental anguish due to this. From my perspective you should feel pride and accomplishment from having contributed to helping millions of people every day.

I get dozens of questions answered each day through your search engine that before would go unanswered. (my last question was: "how does a digital scale work?")

I get to write beautiful documents, spreadsheets and presentations that I can easily share with colleagues, who in turn, easily can provide feedback and comments inside the documents themselves.

I tracked the length of my last run with only my phone using android and maps, something that otherwise would have been difficult to do.

My family easily collects photos of our holiday together in a single shared space.

These are just the first things that came to mind I used google for in the last week. Whatever evils google do, you do at least as much good as well.

It's absurd to me that you are feeling guilt because of this. I can't tell you what to feel, but people like you have made my life significantly better and I want to express thankfulness for that.

Thank you for this comment. HN just likes to put Google's contributions down.

I believe all across internet, there is a paid army of trolls who just want to spew vitriol about a company, paid directly/indirectly by the detractors of the said company. Granted, there are a few true believers but these days in general, I find only negative news / comments about more and more companies.

It's almost like companies are doing more and more negative things to comment about.

It's almost as if there is a world outside HN happy with their services.

Another Googler here, thanks for saving me the typingm

Yes, Google does unethical things. This sucks and I feel uncomfortable supporting it. Quitting is just too costly in terms of personal cost and would not have much effect.

By in large Google tries to go good. No company is perfect.

Cite your sources.

I spent years at Google. The trajectory was obvious even a decade ago. There were many reasons to leave and many of us did. I didn't have to wait for a line in the sand because we knew what was on the horizon and leaving was easy. (I did not have a family then, which is a consideration and why I left one of my last startups. Baby on the way, acquired by a big corp and knew it would be easy to become chained to that desk.)

To you and your parent comment, coming from outside of Google:

Anytime you get a large enough group of people, minimum size of one, evil will exist. That’s something we have to learn how to cope with, and sometimes we have to accept that we aren’t in control.

There’s sort of a rebel spirit in the USA where people see themselves as perpetuating evil if they’re not actively fighting it, boycotting this and that, throwing the tea in the Boston harbor.

On the flip side, I’d make the argument that one’s personal self-preservation is more important than “making a difference,” and that people have way less of a chance to make a difference than they give themselves credit for. As you said, quitting Google would not have much effect.

All of that said, I don’t see anything uniquely evil about Google compared to any other Fortune 500 or even much smaller mid-sized business. I think I could even make the argument that they are decidedly less evil than many much smaller businesses with approximately 200 employees.

And the upside of Google is tremendous. A lot of commercial products have an incredibly positive impact.

I just don’t think anyone has to feel bad for holding down a steady job, especially since we shouldn’t judge people on their employment prestige in the first place. Having the ability to choose employer based on moral compass is itself an indicator of privilege, so I wouldn’t want to look down on a cigarette company employee (especially individual contributors) for holding down that job, never mind a software company that makes a bunch of stuff that people largely like and benefit from.

I agree, I doubt there can be much difference between Fortune 500's company A and Fortune 500's company B, in the long run.

I thought, though, that "being evil" (whatever that means) came from some kind of instinct of survival experienced when facing the threat of bankruptcy, or at least very strong market pressures. And and it didn't seem to me that Google had been facing these yet.

    I thought, though, that "being evil" (whatever 
    that means) came from some kind of instinct of survival
    experienced when facing the threat of bankruptcy, or at
    least very strong market pressures. And and it didn't
    seem to me that Google had been facing these yet.

It's even more difficult than fighting for survival. A publicly-traded company can't just survive, turning a tidy profit every year. It needs to grow at a rapid pace or else those stocks (and therefore the executives' stock options) are useless.

Google didn't need to fight to survive, but they also didn't have the option of remaining "Google, circa 2004" or whatever we think their last year as a mostly-good company was.

I feel that when everyone would apply this world view there would be no point in ethics at all and we would live in a more grim world than we already are. I find it very discouraging since this assumes that we have no choice. But we do.

I met a guy studying CS in Cuba (he grew up there) on a Congress and visited him there. The living conditions there are not nice, wealth is something most people there don’t have access to. But this guy was asked by FB/Google to interview for a position and he proudly told me how he declined and wrote them exactly why he morally thought he will never work there. Regardless of the correctness of his view it impressed me that he held principles higher than his potential income. If you just follow financial incentives in your decisions plus a minimal ethical code that will keep you out of prison you are contributing to humanities demise. Long term if too many people just follow their incentives without reflecting on their net contribution to society as a whole this will destroy our society.

Also it’s not like you will be out on the streets if you don’t work for Google/FB. You’ll most likely still be considered rich with whatever you make at other companies in this sector.

I see.

I have to say I'm slightly surprised, because I thought that top SWE like the ones working at "elite" companies such as Google were enjoying more freedom when choosing their employer.

Seems like it's hard for everyone then... (again, no judgement)

It's only partially true. While many could walk across the street and work for another Fortune 1000 company tomorrow or a well-funded startup in particular areas.

But, I think the point he was trying to make is that because of these mega-companies coalescing their people in certain cities, the economics of that takes a toll on everyone but the top executives who are already getting paid big cheddar + their enticements for being at the company: their stock awards which if there for even 5-10 years can amount to a huge amount. Enough for said ~managers~ [executives] to do the same sorts of hops globally as ~managers~ [executives] are interchangeable regardless of the product they produce.

I worked for a corp at a similar "golden cage" position, where switching would incur a pay-cut and working harder for longer hours. Eventually I changed company. I looked at the beurocrats around me and realised I'll end up like them - my tech skills on the decline, learning only how to manipulate and cover my ass.

We grow in the face of adversity and challenge. I think as an ex-Googler you'll have a choice of interesting positions that will benefit your career in the long run.

I believe that ethics are incompatible with capitalism, so this kind of personal choice doesn't change anything. You can change jobs from one evil company to another.

What would work is enough people willing to organise politically. Unions, people. This is a synchronization problem.

> Unions, people.

Yes. If Google knew, say, 25% of its highly-skilled engineering workforce would strike in the face of unethical business practices, Google would not engage in unethical business practices. Tech companies are assholes because we allow them to be.

There are also companies who happen to make money doing something more-or-less good - for example life-saving medical devices, and even a company like Roland, which makes music equipment. I think those things contribute to a meaningful life, and are a good place to land if you're jumping ship.

> And the borrowing was deliberately encouraged because people in debt are slaves to their employers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX-P4mx1FLU

And the employers are a slave to how modern money is made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

Please don't feel bad about yourself. Very very very few people can have high standards in life and continue living up to those standards where no one will ever criticize them (heck, even Mother Teresa got a lot of criticism[1]).

> All of life is moral compromise

So true. I wonder what sort of life critics of FANG/big-tech live.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa

You should focus on clearing your debts

If this person has been at google for years it’s almost certainly a massive mortgage, which isn’t really debt in the traditional sense

Agreed, I expect that is what they meant. "Massive debt" implies credit cards, gambling, or at least student loans. A mortgage isn't a massive debt like that because it is against the value of the house that you own. If you want you can just sell your house and be debt-free. You can't do that with credit cards.

I looked into moving to silicon valley for the enormous salaries, and even when you take into account the insane rent you're still taking home more than you would anywhere else in the world. I suspect it is the prospect of a pay cut keeping him there rather than actual massive debts.

Thanks for your reply, and sorry to hear you feel trapped in your company right now.

Do you feel like this feeling is common among Googlers?

Also, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think of the reasons from Googlers defending the company, since you probably hear them a lot by working at Google.

Many many Googlers are happy. Also many have stopped coming here because of this circle jerk / echo of many many posts against Google. Some posts clearly state how the author has it against Google after not clearing the interviews "they deserved" to clear.

if they only knew what their company is doing... but they don't. ignorance is bliss.

snapchat for sourdough starters exists?! what is it called?

Just as a counterpoint many happy Googlers will not come here and post "We like it ". Sorry your work sucks. You can transfer to more interesting teams.

I’ve had eight managers and six teams in three PAs. Not that frequent changes either. I assure you this is not an uncommon opinion.

Have you talked with your wife about it?