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> by getting the whole parser onto a single screen, I find that I can get the whole problem into my brain’s working memory and avoid burning cycles scrolling up and down to pin down butterflies bugs.

This is an excellent point, and one that not enough programmers pay attention to (well, outside of the APL family of languages, anyway!)

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As a C++ programmer, I've grown so sick of

                    }
                } // not
            } // a single
        } // fucking else
        // implicit else
        // return nullptr
        return result;
    }

A deeply-indented scope should mean "shit is complicated, think deeply about it," not "there were five times I tried something and elected to punt and return null if it failed." The LLVM style guide has the right idea; if you're gonna punt, early-return.

As a side-note, I really wish the C++ community would take a page out of Lisp's book and stop giving closing braces their own lines. But that'll never happen.

> giving closing braces their own lines

Oh for the love of God, please don't! That would make things even more unreadable.

Also, the closing braces are often accompanied by error handling and cleaning up code.

You might like the golang approach better, which is really the Linux kernel approach when I think about it....

I think that C-like languages wouldn’t be able to handle putting closing braces on the same line because of the lack of Paredit-style editor support. In Lisp, it works well.

What doesn't work well for C-like languages? I've been writing a lot of Rust lately with Smartparens (a paredit like package in Emacs) and haven't had any issues with its support for Rust.

We're talking about putting the closing brace on the same line of an expression, like this:

  int double(int x){
    return x * 2;}

instead of like this:

  int double(int x) {
    return x * 2;
  }

In Lisp, you would write that like this:

  (defun double (x)
    (* 2 x))

and not this:

  (defun double (x)
    (* 2 x)
  )

You can read either with syntax highlighting and the appropriate indentation, but it's much harder to get away with putting the closing brace on the same line in C-like languages because of how few people use something like Smartparens or Paredit and how having multiple kinds of brackets (parens, square brackets, curly braces, and angle brackets) introduces ambiguity.

Yeah, I understood what we were talking about – sorry for not being more clear in my reply earlier.

When you said that putting the closing bracket on the same line wouldn't work because of the "lack of Paredit-style editor support" for C-like languages, I thought you meant that the Paredit-style plugins wouldn't work well with/support C-like languages. That struck me as odd, because I use Smartparens when writing Rust, and it works just as well as it does when I write a lisp/scheme. In particular, it handles parens, square brackets, curly braces, and angle brackets just fine (and it even distinguishes between a single quote that's used to start a character literal (which should be paired) and a single quote that indicates a lifetime label (which should not))[0]. I could easily use it to write Rust with closing braces on the same line; the only reason I don't is because it's not the common style in that community.

Based on your last comment, I now understand that you're not saying Paredit-style plugins don't _work_ with C-like languages. You're saying that most programmers who write in those languages don't use those plugins. Is that right? If so, I agree that they aren't widely used and that it'd be hard for anyone to use the formatting style above without adopting a plugin.

[0]: The only thing Smartparens fails to handle is that it does not recognize that a pipe character is a pair when delimiting the arguments for a closure. I'm sure I could fix either Smartparens or rust-mode to fix that issue but so far I haven't been annoyed enough to bother.

[Edited to add a missing close-paren, fittingly enough.]

Paredit with Lisp is really slick for moving stuff (including yourself) around the AST. What you're describing, the auto-matching, is really just the tip of the iceberg.

With Paredit, there are key chords for moving up, down, and sideways (forwards and backwards) on the tree of Sexps, for transposing two sibling Sexps, for grabbing a sibling (before or after) of a Sexp and making it a child ("slurping"), for taking a child of Sexp and making at a sibling ("barfing").

I have not found a reliable way to slurp statements into the scope of an if statement (Paredit kind of works but tends to misplace semicolons and various other things).

My bad with the poor communication up above. Turns out that we were basically in agreement the whole time. I'm impressed that it can handle the single-quote label thing; that strikes me as the exact sort of thing that I would think a tool like that would have trouble with.

Lisp programmers lived without Paredit just fine for many decades. Even if we assume that developers aren't clever enough to write a Paredit extension for their editors/IDEs for curly-brace languages, I don't see how that's a problem if this style of coding were truly superior for those types of languages.

I experimented with such a C style once, years ago; it was perfectly workable in Vim.

The opening curly brace is better like this:

  int double(int x)
  { x += 3;
    return x * 2; }

I found it's good to have spaces within the braces, including when closing them:

  int double(int x, int b)
  { if (b)
    { x += 3;
      return x * 2; }
    else
    { x -= 3;
      return x * 4; } }

This naturally jives with a two space indentation, so everything is pleasingly copacetic. I feel I could easiy maintain a 200KLOC code base in this style.

Oh, incidentallly, this style is followed in the production rule action bodies of the TXR yacc file parser.y:

http://www.kylheku.com/cgit/txr/tree/parser.y

I wonder how well GCC's newer "misleading indentation warnings" handle this, though.

> C-like languages because of how few people use something like Smartparens or Paredit

However, everyone in C (or C-like) programming with two brain-cells to rub together uses at least auto-indention and brace/bracket/paren matching features in their editor. A stock installation of Vim turns some of it on by default if you open anything with a given suffix like .c or .js.

These editing features work equally well regardless of how you lay out the braces.

I call it telescope or pennant code, it's definitely a smell.

In Python, it's even worse, since there's no braces and not returning anything implicitly returns None.

Mypy fixes the second problem, at least.

Python at least has if ... elif ... else to deal with it.

I always take this as Python's way of strongly discouraging deeply nested and overly long functions... ( I realise this might be Stockholm syndrome...)

If a function returns early, its post-conditions cannot be checked.

This is not true in Raku: whichever way you leave a subroutine, the returned value will be checked against the return constraint. And throw if that fails.

More generally, you can specify KEEP and UNDO phasers in a block, that will fire whether the block is left successfully or not. So a typical usage would be `UNDO $dbh.rollback`.

could you give an example of this?

(all I can think of is something where you could handle it with a finally-type clause)

maybe a fn shouldn't have post conditions?

Do you mean checked by a human reader? If so, a linear sequence of if statements that return early is far easier to check than than deeply nested statements where the error handling for failures is effectively back-to-front at the end.

Or are you saying that there are some lines of code at the end checking the post conditions? I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, it sounds a bit insane, especially if you do it for every function. Could you give an example?

I mean programmatically with an assertion statement or similar. You don't want to add the same assertion before each return statement.

I’d love an example if you have one. I’ve used assertions lots as guards or pre-condition checks on entering the function but never right before returning.

A complicated sorting algorithm could assert that the result is sorted before returning.

Hopefully you saw Liz's comment.

Raku has a zero cost way to add arbitrary post processing that kicks in no matter where or how a block of code exits.

This provides a general mechanism accessible by arbitrary user defined control flow related constructs.

Raku also ships with a dozen or so built in constructs such as PRE and POST blocks that are the foundational elements for DbC, plus UNDO and KEEP blocks for transactional semantics, and so on.

In many situations you can fix this by adding a not to the if statement. eg,

Before:

    if (a.works()) {
      // some code
      if (b.works()) {
        // more code
      }
    }

After:

    if (!a.works()) {
      // error handling code, if necessary
      return;
    }
    
    // some code
    
    if (!b.works()) {
      // error handling code, if necessary
      return;
    }
    
    // more code

This is called "early return" and the parent already mentioned it:

> if you're gonna punt, early-return

here there is some significant restructuring of the flow control, early returns could have just meant return statements in the middle of the function.

I'm really quite sure they were referring to the type of code in your comment. Early return on error (as in, what you posted) vs single return with deeply nested if statements is an absolutely classic coding debate.

just as a quick clarification, I am not the OP

Oops, I did indeed miss that. I suppose that shows that it was helpful to spell it out.

I usually try to bail out of my code early on in Python so I have all my if bail condition statements before I bother trying to do any other logic. Actually I do this in all languages.

Bail early and you wont have spaghetti code, plus you wont even allocate things to memory you're not even going to use, cause you're going to bail.

>if you're gonna punt, early-return.

I don't know what it is but I once interviewed for an embedded C position. During the interview, I wrote out some code samples. The only issue the interviewer found was that I had "returned early". He said there could basically only be one return in a function and it had to be at the end. I told him I'd never heard of that. He only said it was a "standard" that had to be followed because of the crypo involved in the code base.

Sadly, even though I didn't get the job, that stupid statement of only one return call in a function has stuck with me and lead to many mental arguments.

Striving for a single return (without going out of your way to achieve it) is good practice.

There are two main advantages:

- it's obvious when the function ends, no hidden early exits in the middle of nowhere

- if you need to do something before returning, there is only one place to do it (e.g. trim the output, e.g. log performances), and it make it easier to move this kind of last mile logic to a different function (if it's of any interest)

About your interview, don't sweat it, is not for that you didn't pass (you could do a great job and yet lose to a more fit candidate)

The "standard" this might have been a reference to is MISRA C. It can be a useful rule to avoid leaking resources/finalising shit.

Forth programmers often talk about keeping down the number of screens a lot too, for example page 23 of Thinking Forth: "A component can usually be written in one or two screens of Forth."

(Aside from the attraction in small and simple code, each screen in forth is traditionally allocated a designated spot on the hard-drive so it's partially also for space and HDD usage efficiency too)

I haven't seen many developers do this: get a computer screen that can stand in the portrait position.

My setup currently is: laptop monitor + 27" screen in portrait. I never have the trouble of scrolling back up and down again when it comes to reading code.

I use two large external monitors, one in portrait. It's changed my coding style.

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