Surgical mask brace creates a seal making standard masks comparable to N95s | Hacker News Reader

Surgical mask brace creates a seal making standard masks comparable to N95s

fixthemask.com

91 pointsvivekvinodh60 comments

There's no way 3 rubber bands turns a surgical mask into an N95 mask. There are studies that look at the abilities of different materials, removing the seal component entirely, and the two masks have very different profiles. (I don't have them saved, but I've come across several over the last few weeks when looking into alternative to N95 masks. Here's an article I found with 5 minutes of searching that has some refs to relevant studies: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commenta...)

Better seal than a surgical mask without them? Even that I would contest because you are loading the area directly in front of the mouth with more moisture and higher air pressure than designed. Exhaling will puff a regular mask out slightly, which diffuses the exhaled breath across the surface. This straps a 3"x1" segment of fabric to the lips and nostrils and you lose that diffusion. I'd also imagine this would make reuse even more risky, since the rubber bands would wear the hydrophobic coating off and snare small strands of fabric. And then there's the sterilization/sanitization of the rubber bands. And the aging/failure rate of these bands. And then... you get my point.

Maybe they meant well, but this is the type of bad information that is actually dangerous. "Tell Martha in procurement that we don't need the fancy masks and put in an order for 10,000 rubber bands. Why? This MIT Apple Engineer said so."

Going by the downvotes there are a lot of very anxious people out there who desperately want to believe that they can MacGyver their way to personal safety.

Compared to chloroquine this seems like a mildly risky thing, but until they conduct a double-blind physical test, get it reviewed by experts, etc, it shouldn't be out in the public. A good engineer would know that.

> There's no way 3 rubber bands turns a surgical mask into an N95 mask. There are studies that look at the abilities of different materials, removing the seal component entirely, and the two masks have very different profiles.

They don't have different profiles. Surgical masks too use nonvowen polypropylene meltblown filtering material covered in polypropylene spunbond. It is pretty much as good as it gets in terms of materials. The only way to do better at material level is to increase the surface area to be able to make the material thicker, like folding more of such material in enclosures, also adding a valve for breathing out to be able to remove the inner spunbond layer in favor of a thicker meltblown layer. But none of it matters in practice much, because much bigger problems are airtight seal, easiness to breath, to talk, to wear, convenience, proper use, things like that.

However, I don't expect proposed solution to work for most people, the surface area is too small and will make it too hard to breath.

But please stop this "dangerous information" bullshit. Your comment is much more ignorant, misleading and dangerous, than the website.

This whole site just feels, well, weird and honestly vaguely offensive to me. I.e. tons of marketing, "ex-Apple engineers" shouted all over the place, start-up-esque "our team" headshots (notably lackinging any real medical expertise, the closest is someone's husband is an ER doc), for a "solution" that is 3 rubber bands.

I have in no way enough expertise to comment on whether those three rubber bands would be effective, but I can say with certainty they would be horribly uncomfortable. I can't imagine anyone wearing that without constantly wanting to readjust, and hence touch their face. I could easily see this being a net negative given all the face-touching it would encourage.

Apple. MIT. Mechanical Engineer.

I am not sure what is unclear. Did you know some of them studied at MIT? It is like people don't understand that MIT is elite. Do you know that MIT is elite? Did you know that being an Engineer means that you are very smart? MIT. Apple. Engineer.

I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not

definitely sarcastic. right?

If you had gone to MIT or you were a Mechanical Engineer...you would know. I feel sorry for you...Apple...Steve Jobs...Elon Musk.

Please recalibrate your sarcasm-o-meter. Should read at least 9/10 on this one.

I've been doing my business cards wrong all this time.

It almost feels like a parody. "These 7 incredibly talented people brought 100 years of combined experience together to design...some rubber bands tied together."

If it works, then great, but why does it need a marketing director, creative director, etc.?

> It almost feels like a parody.

This is what I'm thinking 50% of the time I read tech news these days. You can't even tell if it's a clever joke or a real thing.

I dunno makes sense enough to me. Air through filter good, air not through filter bad.

How many lives you saved with 3 rubber bands lately?

I think the problem is more about how this will change peoples behavior. See xbkingx's comment above. It's the same problem that football players have when compared to rugby players; they think they are safer because they have greater protection, so they take greater risks.

Surgical masks do not filter the virus. Here's one paper: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-sur...

From the paper:

"The mask's aerodynamic features may explain this finding. A turbulent jet due to air leakage around the mask edge could contaminate the outer surface."

Agreed that calling it an n95 equivalent without any evidence might be a stretch though. And yes other papers looked at it with a seal. Still would be interesting to see a surgical vs. sealed surgical comparison.

They disabled controls in the embedded Youtube video, so you can't rewind or seek in the video.

This is horrendously incorrect. Surgical masks do not filter aerosolized particles at the same effiency as an N95. For an airborn virus, that's a pretty big deal, especially for HCP who are constantly exposed to high viral loads.

Two opposing opinions. Are there relevant references to support one side or the other?

Yes, the fact that the masks in questions are (it would appear) not certified as N95.

Sure, one is certified by a professional body (NIOSH etc) and the other is not. Since it's not, the burden of proof in this case is one sided.

For example: "Surgical N95 respirators are approved by NIOSH as to their respiratory protection efficiency and resistance and other NIOSH requirements. They are also separately cleared by FDA as medical devices. FDA clears surgical masks for sale in the United States but does not test and certify the respirator."

I think they have accepted that burden of proof? They are trying to go through the cdc testing process with their brace, according to the FAQ.

What I would appreciate is more information on this part from them.

What have they done? What testing? How are they measuring particles? What’s the process and what stage are they on?

If they provided more information/transparency the conversation would be VERY different (if the numbers where close to n95 at least)

When worn normally, or when well sealed? Are there tests of this? If they are both melt blown fabric then it seems at least plausible that this thing could work. It should be tested of course, but it seems like they are in the process of doing that.

It seems to me the structure is a bit different. Much more material for the N95 rated ones.

Though to be fair, my reusable KN95 (claimed), from China is just as thin as a surgical mask.

Tbh I don't know anything about it. Their blog post seems technical and well-thought out. They aren't offering these things for sale at $50 a pop, so they're not trying to gouge the public. They are going through the necessary testing. It doesn't seem like an effort that can be slapped down with internet comment outrage.

http://aaqr.org/files/article/668/36_AAQR-13-06-OA-0201_991-...

Thanks. For those not following the link, this study shows that NaCl aerosols penetrate measured surgical masks at a much higher rate than n95 masks, even after creating a firm seal.

It is hard to tell what exactly was tested in this study. It mentions the standards which the tested respirators met but there is no mention of any standards regarding the tested surgical masks. Were they surgical masks that met the ASTM standards for surgical masks? If so the level 1, 2 or 3 standards?

The solution Save The Face Mask proposes is designed to work with surgical masks which meet ASTM standards. Given the lack of information regarding the masks tested the quoted study is fairly useless in evaluating the proposed solution.

I don't understand your question, because you cannot seal surgical masks.

Here's one test. They got people with covid-19 to wear a mask and then cough onto petri dishes. Only 4 people, but the methods are clear.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-sur...

> Discussion: Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients. Prior evidence that surgical masks effectively filtered influenza virus (1) informed recommendations that patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 should wear face masks to prevent transmission (2). However, the size and concentrations of SARS–CoV-2 in aerosols generated during coughing are unknown. Oberg and Brousseau (3) demonstrated that surgical masks did not exhibit adequate filter performance against aerosols measuring 0.9, 2.0, and 3.1 μm in diameter. Lee and colleagues (4) showed that particles 0.04 to 0.2 μm can penetrate surgical masks. The size of the SARS–CoV particle from the 2002–2004 outbreak was estimated as 0.08 to 0.14 μm (5); assuming that SARS-CoV-2 has a similar size, surgical masks are unlikely to effectively filter this virus.

> Of note, we found greater contamination on the outer than the inner mask surfaces.

Isn't the whole point of the apparatus we are discussing to create a better seal with a surgical mask? The study another person linked to here hot-glued the masks being tested to their testing appliance, which does seem to create a seal.

> Surgical masks do not filter aerosolized particles at the same effiency as an N95. For an airborn virus, that's a pretty big deal,

Last I heard, COVID-19 transmission by aerosols vs. droplets was controversial, and only droplet rather than airborne precautions are generally seen as necessary for it.

Also, a big reason (but, yes, not the only one) that surgical masks are less effective against aerosols is that they don't tightly seal, so the most effective part is routinely bypassed by aerosols.

From my understanding aerosolized transmission is a greater concern in healthcare settings, especially where ventilators are being used.

That's what we thought a month or so ago. The science with SARS-CoV-2 is developing, and currently we think people need to be careful with large and small droplets. Large droplets fall out of the air quickly; small droplets can be blown further.

The infectious dose for covid-19 is very small, so getting hit by a few large droplets or more small droplets is about the same.

There's no real standard definition for "aerosol" which makes these conversations trickier.

Since this seems more like a marketing site with no illustrations, their medium post [0] has a picture that explains their idea much better: https://miro.medium.com/max/3500/1*JAurgJijhTt58ILb4DuKdA.pn...

Basically, their claim is that certain surgical masks have sufficient filtration, but don't seal well. They propose a specially shaped elastic band that improves the seal.

[0] https://medium.com/@fixthemask/how-to-design-a-solution-for-...

Thanks for sharing.

While there's a fair amount of criticism on here about this not being N95 spec, I do wonder if this helps at all in scenarios where doctors are working with Aerosol Generating Procedures without any proper masks (with the combination of facemasks, shield wall setups, etc.)

There are already recommendations that surgical masks are good enough for homepatient care scenarios / room cleanup, see https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-is-the-efficacy-of-standa...

> Designed by ex-Apple mechanical engineers.

Are we really now in the world where having worked for Apple makes you instantly trustworthy for anything?

It makes you ever-so-slightly more trustworthy than “three guys in a garage”. And no the irony isn’t lost on me here.

They didn’t cut it?

What kind of mechanical engineering does Apple do?

My guess it would include helping out product design looking up wear on moving parts (keyboard, kids), how products fare on drop tests, thermal design of hardware layout, etc.

But perhaps Ikea does higher level mechanical engineering than Apple, and I wouldn't want a breathing mask made by them.

These braces will look VERY slick, and only have one button!

N95 masks use a special fiber mesh made from "melt down" material to obstruct the passage of viral particles. Surgical masks are for droplet protection only. It is disingenuous in the extreme to make claims that a surgical mask can be "upgraded" to an N95. You can improve the airflow yes, but you should make the claim that it might be better than a standard surgical mask, not anything like an N95.

I believe you mean Melt Blown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melt_blowing

Thank you. I've been pretty stressed lately and it's making me sloppy.

I would imagine only the seal would be comparable (or even better really), but would the filtering capability be comparable?

There are some questions here about filtering effectiveness of surgical masks. Here is one study showing 96% filtration of aerosolized bacteria although unfortunately it does not compare against an n95.

Figure: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Filtration-Efficiency-an...

Full study: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...

If you have a large supply of ASTM Level 1-3 masks, and are young and healthy, this is what you should do: donate them to a local critical care medical facility. Not only do they need them more than you, you need them to stay healthy so they can treat the public (including you).

The ASTM Lvl 1-3 surgical masks use non-woven fiber (e.g. spun polypropylene) the same as N95s. So every new mask is one less N95. This is actually a zero sum game. If you are ordering these masks you are reducing the amount of material available for N95s.

Finally, the caveat that the proposed technique is untested is huge. Lots of things that you might think work don't, or have negative effects. These people should partner with a local virology group to do some testing before they scale up, and before they push this idea out into the void.

This is great! Best wishes for continued development, will follow.

From a user perspective, would be nice to have a version that applies pressure around the head like N-95 or FFP-2 straps rather than additional pressure around the ears which even with a regular surgical mask can be uncomfortable after a few hours. Probably within the design plans already. Also interested in how nose height variability affects the seal near the nasal sidewall, which is sometimes variable with masks. I would imagine people with topographically smoother faces might have an easier seal for this kind of design as well as most other designs without custom (e.g. tall nose) contours.

I don't think surgical masks should be purchased by non-medical staff. Doctors and nurses need this equipment and our supplies are really low. Please leave surgical masks for hospital staff and make yourselves cloth alternatives.

They're recommended for anybody who needs to be in close contact with others.

There are lots of people who aren't medical staff who are in close proximity with vulnerable people by necessity. Vulnerable people should be wearing them also.

For example, every employee at a retirement home wears a mask at the moment.

I can't be the only one who hasn't been able to buy a surgical mask since covid-19 began spreading.

And that is a good thing. Surgical masks should be reserved for medical staff that needs it more than the regular John Doe.

I am all for the general public wearing facemasks to slow down the spread (slow down, not prevent) but there are plenty of clothed masks that help that while still allowing the surgical masks (and N95 masks) be worn by people that need it. (This was one of the annoyance when I was in Asia, me and about 40% were wearing reusable masks and everyone else was wearing the surgical masks)

Even presuming it does improve seal on surgical masks. But problem with this masks isn't just seal, it's the material that can't filter out small particles.

Does it help by creating better seal? It sounds that it should but nobody can confirm it without proper lab test.

This is actually quite correct in its applicability to prevent inhalation of airborne particulate.

come on, the way her ears bend and turn purple after she puts on those super tight rubber bands looks like they're gonna rip apart. I imagine as soon as the take was over she took it off fast, laughing about how anybody could try that thing.

  - this rubber bands make standard masks comparable to N95s!
  - and how do they compare, then?
  - mmmh, bad. Comparably bad.

This looks like it might hurt or injure my nose.

"It seals so well, nobody dies of Covid-19. They all suffocate first!"

I agree with xbkingx, "There's no way 3 rubber bands turns a surgical mask into an N95 mask."

These are two different 'commercial products'. I think everyone here is a reasonably good consumer and understands the 'context' of DIY. If I have a problem with this video, it's the super-seriousness which undermines it's _DIY_, _best I can do with what I got_, context.

To the larger question some of us are asking ourselves: "Amid Ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic, Governor Cuomo Issues Executive Order Requiring All People in New York to Wear Masks or Face Coverings in Public"[1]. Is a surgical mask and rubber bands going to be a better solution than a hanky?

From my ongoing research I want to share one interesting site I found: SmartAirFilters, founded by an associate professor at University of Chicago: "...Smart Air, a social enterprise that makes low-cost DIY air purifiers to help people protect themselves from air pollution." [2]

Can Masks Capture Coronavirus Particles? [3]

Can DIY Masks Protect Us from Coronavirus? [4]

Here's a quote from one of the articles written by a university student which makes my point (to be true the author is talking about particulate pollution and not coronavirus, but in the current context of needing to wear a mask it conveys the tradeoff):

"Should You Wear A Surgical Mask? Now let me be clear. I’m not recommending that everyone use surgical masks. I wear N95 and N99 masks because tests show they fit better and capture more particles. But if professional masks are unaffordable or it’s a bad air day and you forgot your normal mask at home, or even if you’re caught out with a wildfire, ducking into a pharmacy and spending 1RMB on a mask will significantly reduce your exposure to particulate pollution." [5]

Now, let's talk about those rubber bands around your ear... "Canadian Scout Makes 3D Printed Ear Guards That Relieve the Pain of Wearing Surgical Masks All Day"[6].

Woot! Scouts!

[1]: https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/amid-ongoing-covid-19-pande...

[2]: https://ceas.uchicago.edu/directory/thomas-talhelm

[3]: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/coronavirus-pollution-ma...

[4]: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/diy-homemade-mask-protec...

[5]: https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/surgical-masks-surprisin...

[6]: https://laughingsquid.com/scout-makes-3d-printed-mask-ear-gu...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com