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Comment by threepio | Hacker News Reader

"Popular design"? On the contrary. As an iPhone SE owner, this is exactly the form factor that fans of the iPhone 4/5 series (like me) rejected as being too large.

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The most perplexing part has always been the positioning of the SE as the low-price iPhone.

As an SE fan, I would happily, HAPPILY pay $1000 every two years to keep getting upgraded internals in the current form factor.

Yes Apple, I'm sure it's harder to fit those parts in a smaller case. That's why you should charge me more!

It's not a matter of Ludditry. That form factor is ergonomically ideal for a certain kind of phone use. That's precisely why it was so successful for so long.

I have a conspiracy theory that Apple redesigns the form factor every few years so that the "gotta have it" people are forced to upgrade to the latest and greatest device, and those with last gen's model feel that they need to keep up with the Joneses.

edit: I think this is a very real, but subconscious aspect of Apple culture and it exists across all of the product lines. Phones just happen to be one of their biggest products.

Cars were like this when they were the conspicious consumption item of choice. Every year, new designs. Not always better, but forever permutation so old parts don't fit and so that the 2 year old models already looked 'dated'. Now we have phones as our way to show our buying power.

This is also the entire model of the fashion industry.

I don't think it's subconscious. It shows up obviously in bezel thickness and radius of corners. When they release a new product the bezel is thick and the corners are very round. As they are able to reduce the bezel size, they also reduce the rounding of the corners. This has the effect of making the last generation look toy-like and the new generation look more serious. They have used this pattern for like 20 years across many product lines.

Absolutely, but there's more than one reason to buy a product, and people buying the cheapest and smallest model with last year's technology aren't generally the novelty-seeking "gotta have it" people. Especially people using an iPhone SE in 2020 and raving about how much they love the design. They're not going to win these people over with "new!"

This. A lot of hardcore ThinPad users wanted the same with the X200 design. Never happened.

The original SE was the first iphone that made me think of switching, because of that form factor...

Exactly. I'd pay more for a small phone than for the current monstrous flagships.

They're two different things.

The SE is the previous iPhone design. Before that happened to be the iPhone 5/S, now it's the iPhone 6/7/8 design. There are likely a lot of people with iPhone 6, 6S, and 7 that might upgrade but don't want to spend $700+ and lose the home button.

I don't think the SE was targeted at small phone lovers, it just happened to be that since that's the manufacturing and design they had already created for the 5 and 5S.

Rumor is that the iPhone 12 this fall will include a smaller 5.4" model. This would actually be smaller than the 4.7" SE given that the screen goes to the edges. That's likely the "premium small phone" replacement, not this new 4.7" SE.

https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/17/df/7b/88/27fe/4afe/aff4/...

Thanks. That is really helpful. I've been seeing the rumors of the 5.4" iPhone 12, but I had trouble understanding how the overall size would compare with the two SEs. I'll be really curious to see the price point of the 5.4". ~$1,000, or somewhere in between the 2020 SE and that?

The rumor is that there will be four phones:

5.4" iPhone 12

6.1" iPhone 12

6.1" iPhone 12 Pro

6.7" iPhone 12 Pro

Given that the 5.4" phone will probably be in the $600-700 range like the current iPhone 11.

https://twitter.com/jon_prosser/status/1247161866603958273/p...

4/4S/5 and the old SE are still my favourite designs / form factors (saying this despite owning 6/7/11Pro). I hope 12 will do away with rounded edges (similar to the latest iPad Pro).

Also, it's a slippery bugger.

I've had my iPhone 8 for almost 2 years and now I'm working from home I've taken it out of it's case to fully enjoy the design.

Honestly, probably easier to hold a live fish than this bloody phone.

TBF how many people don't use cases?

At least wit rounded edges the after-case size can be smaller.

One could also ask the question "how many people would prefer to have a phone that didn't --need-- a case"?

Given the choice between a thin phone that needs a case and a phone that is as thick as a thin phone with a case that is more durable, possibly has a headphone jack and a slightly larger battery, I would personally go for the latter.

Oh for sure. But does such a phone exist? The previous design with square sides certainly wasn't that.

They used to be more plentiful before everyone started copying Apple.

When I had an iPhone 3G and iPhone 4, I did not use a case. All I used was a vinyl decal to protect the back, and I was fine.

IIRC, my Moto G and Moto X Play were fine without an add-on case. All I used on those was a tempered glass screen protector.

If a phone is designed so the screen always breaks when it hits the ground unless it's protected by a case, it would make more sense to manufacture the phone inside a case already, no? I.e. make a raised rubber bezel around the screen's edge part of the standard design.

I usually use the case that comes with the phone until it falls apart, then I don't use any case until the phone itself falls apart. ️

I've never had a phone come with a case? Strange. But these days I just use the 10$ minimal rubber cases. It's enough to protect were the screen and case meet which is the source of all my breaks.

The last few Android phones I bought have all come with a minimal wrap-around case (maybe not the iphone se, don't recall).

I try and avoid cases because a non trivial part of the phone price is the industrial design of the object and a case immediately hides that.

Hah. But that non-trivial price is what I have to pay if it breaks!

I agree the look and feel is WAY better without a case, but after breaking multiple screens, it's a case-life for me :(

I’d never used a case until I got the iPhone 8 and had to buy one because of how slippery it is! Unless you put it on a perfectly flat surface it will just slide off on to the floor.

Mid- and high-end Android phones (e.g. Google-owned Motorola era) used to have a soft-touch plastic casing which was incredibly grippy, and felt and looked great. Then some phone reviewers decided that in order to be "premium", a phone must be made of slipperiest materials known to man. And so here we are, with everyone covering up their "premium" phones with cases, so they're both uglier and thicker than they used to be when they had soft-touch casing and headphone jacks. Progress.

Nexus 5 was the pinnacle: the weight of the charger cable pulled it off with it, due to the insanely slippery glass front/back.

Yes! I didn't need a case with my iphone 7 since it had a metal back that created friction in my pocket. My iphone x is glass and slips out of my pocket constantly so i had to start casing it.

Yup.

If it’s any consolation, consistent rumors have been pointing to a new, smaller size added to the flagship lineup this fall. It will supposedly have a similar footprint to the 5 series, but with the bezel-less screen like the modern models.

Were that rumor to be true, it would be the first time in ten years I'd line up at a physical store on launch day just to make sure I got one as rapidly as possible.

Smaller as in similar sized to the iPhone 8 (5.4") instead of the iPhone 11 (6.1") or 11 PRO (5.8").

https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/iphone-12/

I went from an iPhone 6 to an iPhone SE instead of the 8 over the size.

A ray of hope, and so quickly crushed. Well at least I know not to get my hopes up.

The 8 had a 4.7" screen and 6" (diagonal) footprint.

The 5 had a 4" screen and 5.4" footprint.

An "all-screen" phone with a 5.4" display would be have the footprint of an iPhone 5, like I said. (and that's an 8 Plus — not just an 8 — sized screen)

((still too big, imho, I want something in the iPhone 4 footprint, but I'll take what I can get))

Smaller than the iPhone 8:

https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/17/df/7b/88/27fe/4afe/aff4/...

Of course 4/5 fans wouldn't like it. They are a hilariously small and vocal minority. This is the most popular selling smartphone design in history. It's no secret that the market back in 2013 was begging for a larger screened phone and this design delivered it in a big way. It's also much smaller than current flagships.

I kept my iPhone SE and was waiting for this announcement for literal years. I only just replaced it for an XS _2 weeks ago_ (refurbished off Woot!), and I knew at the time that as soon as I caved, the new SE would come out. And here we are. If only my Wall Street bets went so well.

The small form factor is really nice to have. Some people don't want a gigantic phone, it's true. Maybe we are in the minority, but a huge phone is inconvenient at the times where you don't need a big screen. I still can't even unlock the thing without having my big dumb face directly in front of it.

The screen is gorgeous OLED and it's terrific to watch Youtube/Netflix on in bed. The camera is incredible. A foldable phone would clearly be the most practical, but I know Apple won't ever do that, and I won't switch to Android. At this point, I just have this stupid thing attached to me at all times, and I'll have to accept it. You ever try running with a damn X/XS/XR or god forbid one of the Max phones strapped to your arm?

But my point is that just because people have gotten used to bigger and bigger phones, doesn't mean that they wouldn't appreciate it being smaller 99% of the time. Like I just mentioned, running or even going for a walk wearing gym shorts with one of these devices in your pocket is pretty much impossible. They are too large and weigh too much, flailing around and whacking you in the knees. I have a battery charging case which admittedly adds more weight, but it literally pulls my shorts down when I go for a brisk walk with my dog.

So to call those who desire a small phone a "hilariously small and vocal minority" sounds to me like "people are in denial that a bigger phone is always better" when that most certainly is not true. It has benefits but I still think they should have kept the SE2 the same size (4") as the SE. The ideal solution would be a phone that can be big OR small depending on situation.

Much like the concept of a touch screen as pitched by Jobs himself during the initial iPhone reveal (context-sensitive buttons/keyboards depending on what you currently need vs. a static keyboard), you can't tell me that the vast majority wants a huge phone every hour of the day.

This is why they will gladly sell you a cellular Apple watch. I actually laughed at the comparison of strapping the phone to your arm because it was so obvious.

I'm just saying that the SE would have sold better or people would have been more upset about the discontinuation, or the Xperia compact line would have sold well...but people want a big screen. It's proven by the market. I'm not saying there isn't a market for a small phone, I'm just saying that there is a much bigger market for a larger phone. (and the original comment claimed the design wasn't popular because it wasnt 4/5 sized) The companies are not idiots out there, all of them went to larger phones because the majority of people prefer them. (Notably the older crowd with worse vision that came onboard to smartphones in the early 2010s and the crowd that got addicted to apps.) I loved my 5S back in the day but the larger screen is much better when you actually use it in depth.

I have a cellular Apple Watch! But Apple doesn't let Spotify sync music to it (or stream via the CELLULAR), so I can't listen to anything unless I'm near my phone.

Imagine my surprise when I got an Apple Watch with cellular specifically to avoid having to take my phone with me. Absolutely absurd - and it's obvious why - they want you to use Apple Music. I refuse to be forced into using a piece of software. And before someone comes back with the inevitable "well you should have researched it":

1) I never thought such a simple and obvious concept would be absent from the Apple Watch, and 2) I use the Watch for the utility of fitness tracking, and that far outweighed the inconvenience of having to continue bringing my phone with me everywhere. I'm not a big runner anyway, usually mountain biking, and my phone is in my backpack or mounted to my handlebars.

Bottom line is it's ridiculous.

EDIT: I did some research on this again and it appears that Apple actually does allow developers to stream and store data from the watch, and that it's Spotify who have yet to release an update for their WatchOS app that provides that functionality. Interesting turn of events; at least I know it's theoretically possible and not gated by Apple.

Apple is referring to the 6/6S/7/8 case. It is indeed extremely popular.

Check out these stats from a year ago. On this app (which has a broad appeal), the 6/6S/7/8 had a 47% share. iPhone 5s/SE had 11%

The old SE form factor is great! And those who like it, like it a lot. But you're clearly wrong if you take that to mean that the new SE form factor is an unpopular one.

https://david-smith.org/blog/2019/06/24/the-popularity-of-th...

By calling this model "iPhone SE", they're plainly hoping to appeal to people who already own the earlier "iPhone SE" (and probably have not upgraded in several years). Among those people, the larger form factor is unpopular. Obviously, people who like big phones already have plenty of choice.

Eh. It just stands for special edition (probably).

When they released the last SE, it was the previous generation phone design with updated internals at a lower price point.

When they released this SE, it is the previous generation phone design with updated internals at a lower price point.

I don't think Apple's intention was to get all of the "I like tiny phones" people to upgrade and they somehow just missed the mark. They know who they want to buy this phone, it just doesn't happen to be one group of people who liked the old SE.

It feels like the automotive industry's product lines. Gradually increase the size and shift it more towards luxury, then introduce a new economy product line. Maybe in 2022 we'll get the iPhone XSE.

I agree with what you’re saying but it is smaller than the X size phones

I’d suggest people really pissed to buy one just to return it. They’ll get the point no other way.

>fans of the iPhone 4/5 series (like me)

Maybe this group that you described is a small minority now?

IIRC the iPhone is the most profitable consumer product ever. If anything, it should be able to support a greater diversity of models than it does. Because even the "small minority" slices are still large in absolute terms. For instance, I'd suppose a niche iPhone could still be more profitable than, say, the new Mac Pro, which is expensive and looks cool but doesn't sell that many units.

Which is perhaps why the iPhone 12 rumors point to four new models, one of which is smaller than the iPhone 8 and one of which is larger than the current Max phones.

If that's true there will be 5 distinct iPhone models released in one year, which I think is a new record for iPhone model diversity.

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