Can we ever go back? | Hacker News Reader

Can we ever go back?

blog.nillium.com

46 pointsjaredwiener51 comments

Every tech person I know in the Bay Area was already working 1-2 days a week from home, and they are all desperate to go back to the same arrangement. Turns out not everyone has home offices, expensive equipment, good internet, privacy, sound-proof rooms or other home situations that are conducive to productive, professional work. The article itself makes the ridiculous assertion that newscasters broadcasting on Zoom from their living rooms is (or should be) the new normal. WFH isn't some genie suddenly out of the bottle. Most people out there are making the best of a shitty situation, not enjoying it, and would all go back in a heartbeat.

Yes there is always room for companies to be more flexible and accommodating, and I hope that some of them do change for the better as a result of this crisis, but "office culture" is going to go back to exactly what it was a few months from now.

> expensive equipment

What equipment aside from a computer (which you can take home) are you referencing, here?

> sound-proof rooms

So open office layout is the opposite of this?

I think the distinction here is a person with a "battlestation" (good monitor, good internet, area with relatively few distractions, etc) versus a person that has no area dedicated to using a computer: possibly a shared apartment (noise and space), wifi that drops out, no good computer desk, and a million other "paper cuts" that make it difficult.

Those issues you described can be resolved with $300 in retail purchases: noise canceling headphones, a wifi router, and an Ikea style desk. Add $100 for a decent office chair. It is not an unreasonable amount of money in most of the USA.

"Not an unreasonable amount" various heavily, not just from location to location, but from person to person and circumstance to circumstance. With all the other barriers to employment in skilled disciplines, should it now be a requirement for employment that you have enough liquid cash to pay for setting up your own office?

> should it now be a requirement for employment that you have enough liquid cash to pay for setting up your own office?

Any firm worth working for will have this as either a stipend, or otherwise handled as part of hiring remote workers. Any one that doesn't make it easy and cheap to be comfortable and productive remotely will miss out on talent because of that.

Not to mention, it's tax deductible.

>> Any firm worth working for will have this as either a stipend, or otherwise handled as part of hiring remote workers.

This is just not true. I have never worked for a colocated company that pays for you to set up your home office. Most do not hire remote works either so there is no predefined (and budgeted) setup

We'll also see if in the face of double-digit unemployment (don't think that's going to resolve itself the minute we get back to work) companies that don't have these discretionary benefits loose out on talent...

Just because a position is filled, that doesn't necessarily mean it's filled by the most-talented person.

It's entirely possible to lose out on remote talent by skimping on the remote experience, while still "successfully" filling the position.

That’s like a carpenter showing up for work without tools

Is it really impossible to invest in the tools of your trade?

> What equipment aside from a computer (which you can take home) are you referencing, here?

Large screen monitors, sit/stand desk, adjustable chair, foot rest, anti-fatigue mat, ergonomic keyboard & mouse, computer dock, good quality microphone and webcam, various dongles. All the equipment I use at work on a daily basis put together will likely be in the thousands of dollars.

> So open office layout is the opposite of this?

Every open office has meeting rooms or phone booths in case you need quiet space.

I have 2x 4k monitors at home, a sit/stand desk, and plenty of dongles - less than 1k. Granted, I lifted my Aeron from the last startup I was in that failed, but we're not looking at multiple thousands.

> Every open office has meeting rooms or phone booths in case you need quiet space.

They usually frown upon people using them for the entire work day. More's the pity.

We don't have enough meeting rooms to let half the office spend half the day thinking. We don't even have enough meeting rooms for our meetings.

Shame. One wonders what allowed for the space for the cubicle culture of the '90s. Cubicles were at least semi-individual offices. Maybe because tech companies were based in the South Bay, where land was more abundant?

Screen monitors you can buy for 100usd. I'm not sure every person in office has a standing desk, but ok, you can buy a cheap Ikea one for 100usd.

The rest you mentioned is under 100usd. You can use your phone camera and mic just fine.

I'm not sure where the thousands of dollars are coming from... You can if choose buy a monitor for 3000, but a 100 monitor is good enough.

I miss working in the office. I miss the comradery, the social aspect, cracking jokes, special lunches, walk stretch breaks, etc. I think work for a lot of people is a fun social time, even though they are working. I feel like working at home I have less fun and actually work more.

I miss that, too. I don't miss the meetings and the noise, though.

I don't live alone. If I did, I would miss those things much more desperately.

Yeah some of my coworkers I feel terrible for. Stuck inside, single, and furloughed. I wonder what health negative health effects we are going to see in the future from so many people being stuck inside.

My wife works at a drug rehab and they are starting to see an uptick in new patients.

I've been at places where it felt like a fun social time, and places where it hasn't felt that way. I do miss being in the office sometimes at places where it has all those positives you mentioned. When the in-office environment doesn't seem to offer those things to me though, remote work seems more desirable.

> I miss the comradery, the social aspect, cracking jokes, etc. I think work for a lot of people is a fun social time, even though they are working.

Me, too, though it seems to me to have disappeared sometime in 2016.

I think there’s an interesting matrix of situations here:

             | Not Willing | Willing |
    —————————————————————————————————-
     Not Able|             |         |
    —————————————————————————————————-
     Able    |             |         |
    —————————————————————————————————-

The interesting outcome here applies only to the set of people who are willing to work from home and are able to work from home.

I wonder how large this group is. Obviously, discussions of how the world will change only applies to this group, so it’s probably important to estimate this number.

The questions I have are:

1. What economic incentives exist for employers to encourage working from home?

2. How will hiring practices change for various industries?

3. How will migration to places like the SF Bay Area change?

4. What new businesses and opportunities will this create?

5. What disadvantages will impact a hypothetical competitive business if it’s competitors adopt a work-from-home first approach but this company does not?

I honestly prefer working from home, but that seems to be a rarer opinion. I feel like it gives me the flexibility to fill the gaps with other productive or relaxing things. Even though I feel like my work environment is great, I feel pressured only do work-related things from 9-5 when I'm physically in the office.

At home, I can take a break to do laundry, study languages, go for a walk. Or if I'm just not in the mood to do work, I can do something else for a while and come back to it later. I love the flexibility. Perhaps I'll miss it after another month.

Wrote a lengthy post supporting, but decided it’s not worth the overall sentiment here. Will just say this - you are not alone in liking WFH :)

Like most things, it’s a deeply personal choice and making claims about who can and cannot be productive in that environment is just projecting ones own personal biases. Do what works for you!

I'm loving all the personal space. Eye contact and shaking hands squicks me out. I'm even loving wearing a mask so I don't have to smile at random strangers. I've been cooking my own food, and not feeling guilty for sitting at home on a Saturday night. I'm gonna miss this.

I have a feeling that tech companies in the most expensive parts of the Bay Area are going to have trouble getting some people to come back to the office rather than move somewhere a bit cheaper and continue to work remotely.

I think some of those people are going to have a hard time getting a Bay Area salary when they are living outside the Bay Area.

We’ll see what happens when the companies say “okay, time to come back to the office” and a lot of their employees say “you know what, how about let’s not?” Maybe some companies will fire all those people or attempt to cut their pay. Maybe some companies will decide to save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on their downtown SF office.

I've been WFH for years and it works super well for me. But I work with people that it very clearly doesn't work well for.

So while I personally believe in WFH (especially as a parent of young kids), I need facts and data before I think we can declare any genie having departed a bottle.

I certainly know of anecdotes where this event has reinforced to some managers that indeed WFH is a bad idea.

Unless we want to take a permanent hit to overall productivity and profitability, yes, most people will return to the office real quick. Trying to be efficient while hunched over a 13" mbp at your kitchen table while your children and spouse expect you to be available even though you're "at work" is near impossible for most people.

I've worked from home for 9 years and it took a long time to get to the point I felt just as proficient as I used to at the office. That didn't really happen until I had a dedicated office in my home, a good desk, a great monitor, and an amazing chair.

Dedicated office with a door being key.

In some cities, having a dedicated bedroom in your apartment (not a studio) is already something. Getting a 2 bedroom apartment is to burn money

When the boss told us to work from home, I packed up my laptop, ordered a great big monitor from Best Buy, and picked it up on the way home. Now I do hardware, so I also went back in the evening and shoveled half of the lab into my car.

But I live where land is cheap.

I had the opposite experience. I started my professional life during the early days of the "open" floor plans. My first work desk was basically in a hallway without even shitty fabric cubicle walls to block me from my neighbors. About 10 feet away from me was the row of sales people, on conference/sales calls all day.

When I first started working remotely, it was a miracle. I finally remembered what it felt like to focus again. I hadn't been able to think so clearly and deeply since college. I had previously thought my mind was suffering early dementia, but it turns out it was just that standard office environment does that to me.

I will say I did miss some of the socialization. I had to consciously step up my outside-of-work socializing time. I think all but the most social people could do this if they made a conscious effort to maintain their social/mental health while working from home. Having young children at home also makes this difficult without a dedicated office and stay-at-home-watching-the-kids-full-time spouse. The big problem right now is people are not capable of compensating for the lack of in-work socializing with out-of-work socializing. I imagine that's extremely difficult for most people.

I've been working from home for a month now and I feel more productive. I don't have a few annoying co workers coming to my desk distracting me. I can focus on my work, and if I need to take a break I don't have to hide it at all. I am more comfortable in my PJ's and get to see my daughter more.

I think it allowing people to choose would give the biggest productivity boost. You do better in the office, but I was way less productive in the office. forcing people to do one or the other will hurt productivity.

I've worked from home quite a bit over the last 14 years. It's nice to have the ability to be productive on some days while having a little more social interaction on others.

I think some people will probably stop fantasizing about what working from home is after this and hopefully some businesses will realize that people are actually a little more productive when not constantly under their supervision. (Did you get the memo?)

I consider myself incredibly fortunate to be able to work from home. I imagine most people on HN are in a similar position.

There are plenty of people that successfully wfh every day, but it's not for me. I like being able to go tap someone on the shoulder and have a quick conversation without turning it into a massive vc call.

I for one cannot wait to commute back to the office, as WFH has completely ruined my workout routine of walking to the gym after work. I don't live within walking distance of one at home, so this would be an issue for me even if all the gyms were open to begin with.

90% of the effort for me is stepping into the gym and making a routine out of it, so this is pretty devastating. I was pretty happy with my gains and now I can see them melting away week by week. I do try and workout at home, but it is not at the same level or consistency of my gym membership.

Your gym is closed because of the quarantine. It's not in of itself the fault of WFH, especially if there are alternative gyms near where you live.

At my current job I try to WFH 2 days a week, and in the past I've been full time WFH. This time is different. I normally have a fair amount of social anxiety and absolutely hate the open office at work... but after over a month of barely interacting with anyone but my wife I can't wait to get back to the office. I even miss the shitty commute, but as wasteful and time consuming as it is, it is mentally stimulating.

Maybe it's my cramped valley apartment... I don't know. I used to WFH from my old house and felt a lot more comfortable there.

> Maybe it's my cramped valley apartment... I don't know. I used to WFH from my old house and felt a lot more comfortable there.

This is probably a big deal. I love having a ton of sunlight and I pay a premium to have an apartment with an amazing view from a set of giant windows on a 6th floor apartment.

At work, a ton of my colleagues are very uncomfortable with sunlight glare on their monitors, so our building always has blinds down and is lit by artificial lighting throughout the year.

I much prefer my apartment with the natural light, peaceful silence and an amazing view. I am sure that loving my home is a big part of me being happy with the current arrangements.

Depends on the business. It has asked the question 'why not?'. For some businesses and employees there's clear reasons to work in an office (need to talk or interact, need to be manage or be managed) - for others its just a hangover from a previous era and this will help open up flexibility.

I think there will be a lot more '3-4 days in the office and the other day(s) from home' as it also accords with many businesses goals to save money on office space through hotdesking.

Yes. This WFH is all kinds of uncomfortable.

I enjoy working from home, I also enjoy working from the office

I can definitely see myself going back to the office for 1-2 days a week, on so called meeting days and wfh on busy days

There's a huge gap between working from home, and working from home in an isolated way where normal day-to-day contact with other fellow humans is severely reduced. The former I generally enjoy; the latter has been terribly lonely.

Most people won't even have a choice. They either aren't working from home now or will stop working from home when things reach some sort of resolution.

To all of the disparate opinions in this thread: what about a compromise of 2-3 days of WFH a week?

I dislike this slight defeatist, leading question type title. Of course we'll go back. How long til? Who knows.

London survived the blitz, the world survived world war 2, we'll survive this. Yes it sucks, but just do your part and stay inside. We have it easy by not listening to doom and destruction dropping during the night.

The full title is "Can we ever go back [to the office, instead of working from home]?"

We have had doctors in the West asking people if they had traveled to Wuhan even in the December time frame. Who knows for how long they've been in the know about the whole thing and nobody said a word until it was too late.

Western reporters (if such a thing exists anymore) in China have absolutely failed to do their jobs on this one.

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