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I know most people think that Thinkpads look ugly

I don't think so. Most people I know love the look of Thinkpads. It's still my favorite looking laptop. It has a classic styling too. It's a design that looked good 10 years ago, and still looks good now. I'm not sure any other laptop exists that can make that claim.

The styling of UPS delivery vans shares this longevity. I think it's because we all know Thinkpads just keep looking the same, so they never look out of date. Whereas, we can tell a Dell from 5 years ago is going to be a lot slower.

Everything you mentioned, I've also done (with the exception of using it out in drizzle and snow - that just seems crazy!)

Once, during my commute home, I decided to play music via iTunes (my iPod had died). I arrived home, walking to the door, when I decided to unzip the bag I was carrying (a sling type) to turn off iTunes, when my Mac Book Pro came sliding out. It landed smack on the front right corner, a good 5-5.5 ft drop. I feared the worst! It took me a good 10 seconds to finally get the nerve to check and was shocked to find, not only was the screen not cracked, but the machine was still running like a champ! (I did end up with a serious dent and some major scratches on the bottom, but I considered them battle scars and showed them off with pride!)

I've looked at ThinkPads for work (web development) and I'm glad to hear the quality is on par with the MBPs I'm use to.

I second this. My MBP has been dropped more times than I can ever admit to the Genius Bar and it has kept on ticking. Every computer I've ever owned has been a mac and they all still work. Compare that to my fiance's 4 PCs that have all broken beyond use. He's currently using my Power Book that's almost 8 years old. It's slow but it works! It also still looks nice.

Last time I looked at them was a while ago, but with mac book pro vs thinkpad, the mac book pro is significantly more expensive.

It's not just build quality, it's also aesthetics. You say you can't speak for design, but that's what most people care about more than the ability to bounce their laptop off of concrete. That's why the average consumer isn't in the market for a Toughbook.

What data are basing the opinions of "most people" and "average consumers" on?

consumer sales?

You mean around 17% to 20% ? That's 'most people' and the 'average consumer'?

can you link to the numbers

Well then HP, Dell and Acer make the most beautiful laptops in the world.

Are you including sales to businesses in those numbers?

Yes probably. And in reality if you look at laptops > $1k it's not even close, Apple has 90% of that market. What that says to me though is that most people care more about cost than aesthetics. The point being that aesthetics isn't really the trump card that a lot of people think it is.

I think we have to bucket buyers into different groups. For one large group I think it is the dominant factor. I think the word "aesthetics" maybe be a bit of a misnomer. It's more than just physical appearance. There's a clean elegance to almost all aspects of the device including the software.

The tablets will be a good test, so far the android tablets aren't a lot cheaper than the ipad. We'll see how they do.

Does it matter? Are you disputing the claim? Do you think that people care more about the ability to bounce their laptop off of concrete than aesthetics?

Depends on which group you look into. The social level who can afford to buy apple? Most likely not that many.

Those who can't afford to change the laptop if it breaks (or who would find this to be a major expense)? Yeah, I can believe that.

The social level who can afford to buy apple?

A Toughbook costs more than a comparable MBP.

And for the price of a MBP you can buy 2-3 "normal" laptops.

I.e. the low-end budget stuff that ain't pretty, may have a whiny fan, but still gets the job done.

Why did that get downvoted?

For reference, here's a Lenovo G550 for $389:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834146...

The MBP starts at $1199.

And insurance costs more than not having it, but the poorer you are, the more you need it.

So yeah, it is maybe more expensive but I can totally see why you would want that.

I can see why you would want it as well, but if you can afford it then you are in the social group who "can afford Apple".

(As long as toughbook refers to Panasonic Toughbook brand, if there is a cheap laptop marketed as durable that would make a difference.)

>That's why the average consumer isn't in the market for a Toughbook.

The average consumer isn't in the market for a beautiful piece of a glass laptop that breaks with little impact either.

My original Aluminum Unibody 13" macbook has been dropped 6ft onto a hardwood floor, and banged multiple times against aluminum braces. Has a few dings, but still going strong.

I disagree. I think that the average person looks almost exclusively at price, and not much else. However, in my experience the few people that pay much attention to the specific type of laptop they are buying pay at least as much attention to quality as they do to aesthetics. (Note that I don't have any numbers to back this up, this is just my experience from the people who I help buy computers)

I do like apple hardware (until mac os x became good enough for me, around 10.4/10.5 I used linux on a intel macbook), and it is well designed, but IBM thinkpad are much more solid.

Actually, the Intel plastic macbook were pretty crappy quality-wise: the magnet stuff which kept breaking for many people, etc... I bought the alu one for that reason alone. Also, ipods are not super strong, and the recent ones rarely last more than 2 years for me.

Maybe I am just careless, but the IBM thinkpad I got lasted for years and were built like tanks (and unfortunately looked like as well...).

I once slipped on ice and dropped my running T60p 4 feet onto a steel manhole cover.

3 years later, it's still running like a dream.

These stories of people running across streets frantically computing with their open laptop during the dead of winter invite so many more questions than just the survival of the device.

"when I was young, we'd walk 25miles to school, in the middle of winter, uphill both ways, with our laptops open and running..."

"At least you had a hill to walk up. In my day we had to use our laptops in an icy hole covered in tarpaulin just to keep the things from overheating"

Trying to triangulate the position of a wifi AP ;)

I will tell you the build that Apple has: > +Dropped it way more times than I can count, usually while closed and turned off but also while it was running, and while it was open (both running and not). Yes

>+Totally stood on it, putting my full weight on the closed lid many times. Why on earth would I do that?

>+Left it running in my closed backpack for almost an hour (twice). More times than I can count. My MBP has been "shut down" for a maximum of 20 times in the past 2 years.

>+Used it indoors and out during drizzle, snow, the height of summer and the low of winter, I even used it on a beach once. Everything except the snow

>The only issue I have ever had was when I was carrying it about 6 ft. off the ground while open and running (brilliant I know) and I dropped it onto a tile-on-concrete floor. That time the hard drive crashed but everything was perfectly fine.

Done that as well. The MBP hard disk stops motion when the acceleration exceeds a certain value suddenly

-It is not just the build quality. -It is also about merging design and technology -Building a durable laptop can be as non innovative as carbon fibre layering. -It is about removing point of failures/fall/mishaps by innovation like the MagSafe adapters. God they prevent the laptop from falling everyday. -Also it is not just how it is built but also how it works. I work on Windows in my office and on my MBP by the night. The OS is exceedingly more polished and refined on the Mac. <br /> Does that give a fair perspective?

Ok. I am new here but I do know the reason why this was down voted. Could you please explain?

I didn't downvote, so I'm not sure, but I'd guess it's mostly because of the odd formatting. It's difficult to tell what you are quoting, and what you are adding. I wouldn't take offense. Checking http://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc might help for the future.