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Contributors Leaving Pytest

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38 pointsloose1116 comments

I feel very uncomfortable whenever I read a code-of-conduct, including the PyTest one:

https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/blob/master/CODE_OF_CON...

I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with the spirit of such documents, but they seem to normalize a world where bad behavior is regulated by well-intentioned ad hoc legalese.

In the good old days, one would receive on the spot practical training on how to behave by ones parents, friends, older siblings, teachers etc. I suspect my revulsion at reading codes of conducts is part of me being in denial that there are so many more people in the world now, on the internet, who were raised by the social / etiquette equivalent of animals.

Some would receive on-the-spot etc etc. Many (most?) would never get anything. Bullying and discrimination were socially accepted pretty much in all ways of life - they still are in many (most?) of them.

CoCs are an effort to formalise a more respectful approach to relationships. Sadly, formalisation is not necessarily an engine for change: we have had plenty of very hard laws against theft and murder all over the planet, for millennia, and still plenty of people will routinely thieve and murder every single day.

The problem with "on the spot practical training" is that not everyone gets the same training across cultures or economic groups. This gives some groups a permanent embedded advantage over others, which is the opposite of meritocracy. Ad hoc enforcement only makes this worse. The ad hoc legalese in a code of conduct can bring more consistency to both rules and enforcement, though regrettably many implementations fall short.

You make a good point — I suppose conduct codes are the HR department for mailing lists. I’ve always thought of collaborative open source communities as groups of friends or at least like minded hobbyists with a common thread of likeability, but I suppose they are a lot more like workplaces.

The "good old days" are definitely not as good, nor as old, as you think they are.

For example, it wasn't until 1965 that racial discrimination in voting was prohibited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965

So some person is doing some thing and it drove multiple people out.

This desperately needs a summary for anyone not embedded in the pytest community.

I don’t understand why the problematic individual is not named. I guess most people in the pytest community know who it is, but other communities need to be warned too, in case s/he moves on to some other project.

They are. Not directly, but through heavy hints in that thread. I really hope they have evidence to back this up, because from my POV they all but identified the guy after being unhappy with the action of the CoC comittee.

Maybe they don't care now they've left, but on the other hand maybe they hope the guy is kicked out at which point they can return; but is that really reasonable after essentially circumventing the CoC process?

Genuinely puzzling considering the mailing lists are quite civil and actually a generally pleasant seeming place - except for the top posters - may they burn! jkjk :D

Anyway, according to Github recent history, the top recent committers are:

* https://github.com/nicoddemus (leaving)

* https://github.com/blueyed

* https://github.com/RonnyPfannschmidt (leaving)

* https://github.com/asottile (leaving)

* https://github.com/bluetech (elevated last month to core)

* https://github.com/thisch (last in mid 2019)

Honestly, I didn't realize pytest was such a German product. Fascinating.

three contributors have left: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/pytest-dev/2020-April/0049...

this is sad but echoes something i have seen far too many times. i wish them the best luck. especially at times like these; they need to prioritize mental health over dealing with individuals online.

sometimes it's not even about trolling but about having a bigger voice than others online...

Other threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22838951 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22837373

What's going on? I can't find anything concrete

edit: Seems to have something to do with the CoC?

No, the only issue with the CoC is that it seems unable to resolve the situation. They have a CoC board but apparently it won’t act in this case.

I was judging from [1]: "I am contemplating to follow the #pytest exodus, I previously left the CoC team because of the issue at hand"

[1] https://twitter.com/ossronny/status/1248674298807627778

Yes - the CoC seems powerless to stop the problem. That guy recognised that earlier and dropped out of the CoC board; eventually he followed others who dropped out of the project.

From what I can determine, this is not one of those “omg the newfangled CoC is driving people away” situations, but rather “we have an asshole in our midst and, despite all the big words about CoC, nothing actually gets done about it, so I’m out”.

It would be funny if of the three that has left A has an issue with B who in turn has an issue with C who has an issue with A. But it's not funny.

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