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Comment by edw519 | Hacker News Reader

In fact, one thing I have noticed is that the people who I consider to be good software developers barely ever apply for jobs at all.

Good point. The best developers I ever hired were (a) already working, (b) not looking, (c) referred, and (d) without a current resume.

Therefore, the people who I consider to be good software developers probably don't have a current resume.

Therefore, the top 1% of good software developers probably don't have a current resume.

Therefore, if you have a pile of current resumes, it probably includes none of the top 1% of good software developers.

Therefore, if you're hiring from current resumes, your probably not hiring the top 1%.

[The only thing worse than sloppy probability and statistics is sloppy logic. But that's OK, because I'm not in the top 1% of either.]

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Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs.

I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more than a couple of years.

The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent.

I agree whole heartedly with this point. I currently work for a large bay area company and I noticed a new intern come on board who just has the 'X' factor, and could well turn into that top 1% or close to it.

Needless to say I'll most likely approach him as my first hire when I get to that stage with my own startup.

I'm not sure your exception is an exception. In the company I work for, there are some amazingly bright guys, but I don't hear about them being in any open-source project. I would suspect only the interns and a few of the younger guys have code published on bitbucket or whatever.

Individual talent is still evident on developer mailing lists, discussion groups, etc.

A quick example: http://9fans.net/archive/?q=rsc&go=Grep

Honestly...I don't think that search evidences talent at all. If I didn't already know who Russ Cox was (and seen his code in projects like Google CodeSearch, re2, and Go), I'd think him just another Internet idiot.

There is a big difference between watching someone code and watching them talk about coding. Ability in the latter is not indicative of ability in the former.

Being able to recognize the innate potential of others by indirect means is itself a talent.

and, mate...

"We have to interview so-and-so. I know him from Hacker News and he's clearly smart."

-- http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=pg -- http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html?s2011

A small thought/question: How do "we own all your IP" employment agreements influence and affect the power/mobility of such people?

I'm not arguing that they are a factor. Just asking -- in part, as a thought exercise.

"The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent."

Their boss will.. and their coworkers (above and below) will. There have been a number of times that I've been asked for a recommendation and referred someone that was a past supervisor, team lead, etc.

There are some real smart people that don't have business savvy or street smarts. Its easy to get locked into a big dumb corporation that doesn't recognize talent. You could spend a long time in a place like that and not realize your potential. After all, most kids still go through college and work at "safe" jobs.

There's an inherent information asymmetry in the job market too. Think of great coders who grow up in the middle of nowhere and get a job in the nearest city. They don't know what the vets at their company in Birmingham, AL are making. All they know is that the coders on HN all say "at least $100k for a dev in the bay area".

You need to do a lot of footwork and networking to build an accurate picture of the employment market in a region.

"... other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. ..."

Do you mean, "other people who work with them" or "other people who notice them"? I ask this because how do you tell if someone is a great hacker unless you work with them?

Yes, it does rest on that assumption, but I think the assumption is warranted. The bar for "strong enough" networking skills is pretty low, after all. An developer who's so socially inept that nobody he's worked with would recommend him for a job probably isn't in the top 1% anyway.

I can't remember the last time I needed to update my resume, probably about a decade ago. I've managed to get pretty regular work as a contractor without one. I'm planning a career move perhaps into a permanent role and realised I haven't spent an awful lot of time networking with other developers or even digital agencies. I'm not suggesting I'm in the top 1% of devs but I'm sure there may be others in my situation who are in the top 1% and have just neglected their networking duties and worked somewhere in relative isolation. In these situations a good resume doesn't hurt your chances of getting where you want to be.

In fact when I realised I needed a new resume instead of just updating mine like I normal person I ended up writing an app called Mighty CV. Initially the service is aimed at developers and will hopefully make the task of creating and updating your resume easier.

Check it out - it has a LinkedIn importer and a dynamic PDF generator for when you need a paper copy. It'll show basic stats from HN and github too. I'm really keen to get some beta users from the HN crowd to test drive it so if you agree that the resume is not dead (at least for the other 99% of us) perhaps you'd like to sign up for the beta:

http://www.mightycv.com

Invites will be sent out in the next week or so.

Mighty CV looks good.

Would you be able to explain to me the meaning and calculation of "Top 99%" that is displayed next to the profile pic?

It was a bit of a tongue in cheek reference to this thread. It's not a calculation performed by Mighty CV. In the résumé builder that text equates to a free form text input called Professional Title. You can write whatever you like in there. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for reminding me it's there it wasn't meant to be a permanent fixture.

I completely agree with that statement. I have actually never applied for a job yet. The startup I'm working for right now hired me because they stumbled across my app and contacted me asking me to work for them. I have received five other job offers recently in the same way, without sending out a single resume.

Not that I am assuming myself to be in the top 1%, but to my way of thinking the top 1% isn't going to be searching for a job, they will be making their own job, creating their own startup and websites. It is up to you as the employer to discover these people and try to hire them. They may not even accept your offer if it isn't tempting enough.

I don't know. Oh, if this was true, I'd feel great. See, I've never applied for a job, but I've been working in software for 10+ years now. I've never submitted a resume. It's always been recommendations and companies coming after me and trying to recruit me. Hell, my current job I got by being recommended to one of the partners by some other guy I never met who apparently worked with something I did!?

Point is, I don't feel like I'm in the top 1%. Oh, I'm good at my job, and I know what I'm doing, and my domain knowledge, I think, is solid, but I know so little. There is so much I don't know, and so much more to learn.

Or maybe I'm just taking the 1% part too literal? Or, maybe, I'm just underestimating the size of the 99%.

Point is, I don't feel like I'm in the top 1%.

Well, to be fair, you're stretching the logic being applied a bit. There is a big difference between saying "The top 1% of developers don't have resumes" and "Anyone who doesn't have a current resume is one of the top 1% of developers."

I guess that was sort of my point. I just failed to realize it so sucinctly. =)

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