We need to talk about AirPods Pro | Hacker News Reader

We need to talk about AirPods Pro

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125 pointsdmvinson64 comments

I'm personally a fan of the conspiracy theory that because multiple ANC products have had their abilities reduced in firmware updates over the past couple years, research teams have been independently finding out that user's hearing are being damaged by highly effective ANC and have had to turn them down without admitting fault.

Although I'm not even sure if that's how sound waves work, and recently there was Bose's investigation into their firmware update that didn't actually reduce their ANC despite user perspective. It's a fun theory up there with the fake existence of Finland.

This feels super-plausible to me, and it's something they would never, ever admit.

Lol, it’s the worst conspiracy theory ever, that a lack of noise damages eardrums.

Googled it so you don't have to: ANC in this case appears to stand for Active Noise Control, i.e. noise-cancelling headphones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control

The other option is that Bose, Sony or some other high-end audio company has a patent on whatever noise cancellation system was in place originally. A decision was made to avoid a legal battle (or a deal fell through at the last minute) and the feature was nerfed until Apple can strong arm the patent holder into a better deal.

this is exactly what happened.

source?

Finland

Without disclosing more this is the situation.

The patents violated expire in 2021 so it is likely they are holding out.

I was under the impression that the core principles of noise cancellation were well-understood and in the public domain as part of signal processing. Basically you reverse the predictable component of the signal and add it to the incoming, so only the innovation (unpredictable) signal remains.

Couldn’t Apple or Bose just fall back on these methods which should work closely enough to whatever fancy method is patented? Or is the method I’m describing patented?

why would people's hearing be damaged by highly effective ANC? it's more plausible that they would be harmed by a bad implementation where the second signal isn't perfectly out of phase.

Isn’t ANC effectively twice the sound waves? People treat ANC like hearing protection in office situations and often turn up the volume to drown out nearby conversations. I don’t think it’s “ANC damages hearing” as much as “ANC encourages people to damage their hearing”.

> Isn’t ANC effectively twice the sound waves?

ideally no, just the opposite. the idea of ANC is that you detect the frequency and amplitude of incoming waves, then generate a second wave with the same amplitude, but 180 degrees out of phase (so that the trough of the second wave aligns with the peak of the first). a perfect implementation would totally "cancel" the original sound with destructive interference.

I'm not very familiar with consumer ANC headphones (I prefer passive attenuation), but I would expect the cancellation effect does not increase when you turn up the volume, as this would just be perceived as noise if it exceeds the amplitude of the ambient sounds. I guess ANC might encourage people to expose themselves to very loud noises that the device can't compensate for, but that's more user error than an inherent flaw in the technology. people routinely listen to music way too loud in quiet settings anyway.

Yes but perfect destructive interference isn’t possible unless everything remains fixed in place which is difficult on a living human head. Its quite possible to get temporary constructive interference for short periods, and also plausible the brain would filter the spurious noise out.

Not quite following this argument. The distance between the microphone and speaker is fixed (and small compared to the wavelengths of interest) because they are part of the AirPod.

The distance between the speaker and ear drum.

Assuming the the canceling wave is timed to cancel at the speaker this should not matter as the external wave and the canceling wave would have the same distance to the ear drum.

That sounds like twice the sound to me due to the additional canceling wave. I don’t trust it to not damage the little delicate bits in my ear just because my brain is able to sum the two waves and perceive silence.

ANC works on the level of physics, not just perception -- it attenuates the actual sound waves.

Where does that energy go although? The waves go to 0-ish, but that air pressure / energy has to go somewhere correct?

The energy goes into constructive interference in other parts of the wave (hopefully not traveling into your ear). Avery's beamlab[1] provides a nice playground with visual representation (use the anti-optimize mode). It's built around radio signals but the concept is very much the same.

[1] https://apenwarr.ca/beamlab/

I've played with audio software for a long time and I recently experimented with Active Noise Cancellation. There are a few things to keep in mind:

* A "live" ANC process has no control over the environment from which it receives the audio signals that it acts adversarially against.

* When transmitting audio waves from one medium to another, there will be latency. Perhaps not much, but it will be there.

If you accept these two positions, then consider this:

* What happens when a sound wave that is being combatted (via phase inversion) suddenly stops, or inverts it's own phase? That's right, ANC could potentially double the amplitude of the frequency being combatted.

* I imagine that ANC technology takes advantage of latency to ensure that they don't damage people's hearing, but the nature of ANC requires low latency in general, otherwise you can't be sure that you are combatting the correct frequency (at which point you risk doubling the amplitude due to abrupt changes) - if someone more familiar with the actual algorithms could chime and correct me I will happily stand corrected :)

So first off, doubling the amplitude is a 6dB increase in SPL. So not that bad actually.

Second off, instantaneous sound is only a health issue when it's really loud, like a gunshot (130-140dB SPL) near the point at which the ear drum ruptures. That means that you need to be in an environment where the background noise is dangerously loud to begin with, and because of the way sound is made - this might be unlikely. Which is interesting, because early ANC did have these problems - when it was being used initially for military applications (helicopter/tank pilots iirc).

Lastly the important thing to remember is that ANC is usually part of a dual pronged approach to ear protection. Latency is a problem when you need to cancel high frequencies (where you get past about a quarter wavelength and interference can become constructive), but ANC excels at low frequencies (below about 500-1kHz it can be remarkable even). This is great because passive reduction strategies (sealing off the ear, thick padding, good fit/headband adjustment) are much more effective at high frequencies.

So TL;DR it was a problem, been fixed, and where it might happen is pretty rare for a consumer.

Also noise rarely spontaneously inverts phase at a particular frequency. That'd be weird.

Yeah, you're right about ear damage coinciding with exposure time - short bursts would have to be very loud to cause real damage.

And yes, it would be weird if a frequency range spontaneously inverted - the only scenario I can imagine that happening in is some jerk doing it on purpose.

The reason I became interested in ANC was because every night I would hear a terrible frequency being emitted from the air conditioner units above me (top floor apartment building), and during my experiments I quickly realized how hopeless it would be to effectively combat them due to the varying intensity of the sound throughout my apartment, the dynamic interactions of the sound with itself within my echoey wood floor studio, and my location at any one time. All valid points though, thanks for chiming in. I learned more about ANC :)

Edit: Btw my goal was ANC via speakers, not headphones. Headphones would be much easier since they only have a single, summed audio source.

Then again... won't that summed audio source be at the mercy of my loud speakers?

If you mean by that that it couldn't be louder than what the speaker could produce: No, because you're adding to the original noise entering your ear from the outside.

Will the physical sound waves that I produce with my loud speakers cause Active Noise Control enabled headphones to "engage" with me? Could I adversarially engage with them at that point?

I think I understand what you mean now.

While the noise cancellation is active it will attempt to neutralize (destructively interfere with) sounds from the outside, including those generated by your speaker. You could indeed adversarially engage through something like a spontaneous phase shift (so the interference will become constructive, making the resulting signal louder) or generating a frequency the ANC can't compensate.

You could imagine a case though where if you took noise cancelling away then people would turn up the volume to drown out the background noise.

That's my theory! I bought the airpods pro before nov, and around nov 2019 I developed tinnitus that I couldn't pinpoint the cause of, even after going to an ENT & Audiologists. After going to the Audiologist. I also found out tinitus is a big mystery in the medical field outside of a small band of causes that I didn't have.

The only difference in my day to day was the Airpods Pro and biking to work with them.

Why would you bike wearing noise-cancelling headphones? It seems odd if one values one's life.

They have a hear through option that works with wind noise, unlike a lot of other ones?

Ah, I did not know that! I assume, though, that that mode doesn't implement ANC. Given that, I'm not sure it explains your symptoms.

No it still uses ANC, it uses the microphones to pipe in the audio from outside.

Not all commutes are in Urban environments.

how old are you?

Early 30s, and I've been one to avoid loud sounds / concerts for most of my life. The spontaneous development of it is what really got me. I first got it on a quiet car ride.

Mine are on 2B588 and I think I bought them late enough that I never even had the original firmware to compare. I do know that when I first put them in I thought the power went out in my house (due the sudden lack of noise). I would like to know if I'm crazy or if these don't stay in ears well at all. Kind of the opposite of what you would expect from an earpod like this but I can get them to fall out in <10 seconds when eating with them in. Even when I'm not moving my jaw they have a habit of slowly sliding out.

And before I get asked about tip size, I've tried all of them and done fit tests on all of them. Fit tests always pass, and the pods always fall out. I even tried different sizes on different ears over time to compare the two but they seem to fall out at the same rate. I just (like as in 2 hours ago) broke down and bought some foam tips from Amazon to see if that helps.

It's really disappointing because my original AirPods were so magical and now I kind of don't like wearing the Pro's. I've considered more than once just buying AirPod 2's and giving up.

I've had problems with pretty much every in-ear bud I've had up until I bought the AirPod Pro's. Not had a single time when I've felt they have even started to come loose.

I wear them with the stalks pointing forward at around 45 degrees.

I have the same problem, although perhaps not as severe. I feel like they’re falling off and have to adjust them. Also tried all tip sizes and they all test as good fit as well, which is odd. All my previous in-ear felt like they fit better and also seal the noise out better naturally (without any noise cancellation)

But my biggest disappointment is the mic quality with my MacBook. Apparently some limitation in Bluetooth or something? No idea but mic sounds like crap. Works great on the phone but I hardly talk on my phone ...

I think it's a break in issue. When you first get them the tips are stiffer and not covered in ear wax. As usage increases the rubber becomes more pliable (because it's so thin) and becomes covered with a layer of ear wax over time, causing lower friction and thus a higher probability of fall out.

I've had the same issue. I've thought that maybe my ears are just too greasy. I'm constantly fidgeting with them. With the original AirPods I would forget I had them on.

They also seem to take longer to disconnect/switch to different devices.

I’ve has the same thought on my ears... yeah OG AirPods I would constantly forget I had them on or think I had them on, these and just a source of annoyance. I just got off a call, I was laying in bed and I had to readjust them 10+ times in the span of as many minutes... really annoying.

I resolved this by adding a blob of PVC glue (using a hot glue gun) to a specific spot so the shell of my ear holds them in place. The trick is making it so it’s still possible to close the case.

It’s not perfect. But it was a big improvement in my case. And it’s non-permanent.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Gc9TrO4UWwv-kOns_o1sGmig

> We need

I think this problem is pretty far down the list of World’s Top Problems

It would have made a good B-plot on Silicon Valley. :)

It's an interesting hardware bug, but the author's writing and saying "This story should not be allowed to die" makes me see him as a huge self-important first world prick.

There has been also some comments about people feeling "pressure" with the noise cancelling headphones. Couple of old articles mentioning this [1] and [2].

It's not about pressure as having something tucked into your ears, but related to the noise cancelling: "You may notice a pressure-like feeling in your ears when you first put noise-cancelling headphones on, like when you want to 'pop' your ears. This is caused by your brain perceiving the lack of low low-frequency sound as a pressure differential between your inner and outer ear, just like when you ascend in an airplane." If you search for Airpods and pressure, there are also comments on Reddit etc. I did not investigate if those are referring to this phenomenon.

Something like this could explain why Apple would like to tweak with the noise cancelling.

[1]https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know-technology/no... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/technology/personaltech/0...

I have this problem with noise canceling headphones.

When I first tried the Bose headphones, I immediately felt an uncomfortable pressure on my ear drums. I can only wear them in airplanes and have to take breaks. I tried other headphones and none are perfect for me but I did buy the Sennheiser ones. It has okay noise canceling with only minimal pressure for me and with stellar audio performance. The noise canceling is noticeably worse than the Bose's but at least I can wear them longer. I also tried the AirPod Pros when they came out and felt very little pressure so from that angle I would have been comfortable with wearing them for an extended period. (I can't say for sure but it might not have been the launch firmware) As with all Apple headphones they just don't stay in my ears so sadly I passed them up.

> I actually told myself I would need to be extra careful from now on crossing the road. The noise cancellation was so good, I thought I might be hit by a car.

Sounds like the author hasn’t ever used any other good ANC cans? Both the Bose and Sony pose the same hazard.

I can't imagine Scenario #1 being the issue. It should have been the first thing they looked at when designing it. If it is, it's a new level of terrible QA that Apple has been plagued with in recent years.

My lack of faith in humanity can see #4. Another great thing nerfed by dumb people.

Regardless, the firmware releases are an embarassing fiasco that demonstrates a lack of coordination and communication within Apple.

I can. Make a big splash with amazing ANC at launch, hope news media picks up stories about how awesome it is, then nerf it before that same media starts picking up stories about the crappy battery life.

I never noticed the "whoosh" silence with the AirPod Pros when I tried them BUT I noticed something like that on my iPhone XR. Sometimes when I am on a call and hold/press the phone to my ear in a certain way I have the sensation of losing most of my hearing in that ear with only the voice remaining. The sensation never lasts longer than a couple of seconds but it's only on phone calls that I ever noticed this. I never had that with any other smartphone, even ones claiming to have noise canceling during calls. Reading this article makes me belobe that the iPhone still has the original AirPod ANC which is just less effective due to the bad seal.

Did anyone else notice this?

I've bought AirPods Pro in early November right after they were released. From my personal experience, the background firmware updates have had a very noticeable effect. I can attest to the perceived weakening of ANC (as opposed to the initial firmware) the article mentions.

One firmware update has even rendered one of my AirPods Pro practically unusable due to a strange clicking noise that would occur whenever I was walking/running with ANC enabled, likely due to accelerations acting upon it. I was convinced it was a hardware fault and was ready to return them until another firmware update fixed the problem (until now at least).

Maybe litigation about the earbuds being too quiet might happen if someone doesn’t hear something behind them like a car horn or oncoming something. I used to wear noise cancelling headphones while walking to work in downtown SF. It was too much cancellation that bothered me because I couldn’t hear anything approaching me from behind. I can easily see the opposite happen if someone was killed with the OG firmware. “Are AirPods too quiet? Do they put you at risk?”

Wouldn't that also apply to earplugs?

I don’t know. I’m not Apple’s lawyers.

I would assume wearing earplugs you have the intent of reducing the sound coming in. AirPods you are blocking external sound and replacing it with audio of some sort.

With earplugs you could still hear things but at a reduced level. AirPods you’re covering up and external sound that could come through.

I got a pair of Pros as soon as they came out. The fit was weird (maybe I got used to regular Airpods), but what made me return them is I ALWAYS got nausea after a few minutes with the noise cancelling turned on. It’s anecdotal of course, but maybe there was something on v1 that added latency/something to the external noise, thus inducing motion sickness? (Never got to try the new firmware to confirm the theory)

Ive stopped buying anything with non replaceable batteries after noticing how much junk I accumulated just coz the batteries died. Anyone know of good bluetooth receivers (the types that clip to your pocket) that take an AA or AAA battery?

I am just absolutely fed up of the battery situation. By the time the devices are broken in and you are comfortable, it's time to buy another pair. I am not that rich.

I got mine in December (I believe this means I had the "bad" firmware), but I still loved them immediately.

However, about 1 month later I noticed that noise cancelling (and passthrough as well, which was even more annoying) wasn't really working on one side. I tried factory-resetting them, tried everything I could think of, and nothing helped. So I scheduled an Apple Store appointment. To Apple's credit, they replaced the one on the side that wasn't working, for free, with very few questions asked.

However, that's when things got weird.

Now the older one wasn't cancelling/passing-through as well as the brand new one. It was doing something, just not as much, which led to a really distracting audible asymmetry. This was confirmed by the fit test not working in just that one ear. Again I tried updating the firmware, factory-resetting, etc.

Eventually I found this thread on MacRumors: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/airpod-pro-ear-tip-fit-...

tl;dr, it seems that some of the meshed gaps/microphones the Airpods Pro use to calibrate their various special audio features get very easily clogged by ear wax, skin oil, etc. And they're extremely sensitive to this, to the point where you have to clean them out very frequently to prevent degradation. I went through and rigorously cleaned them - rubbing alcohol, cotton swaps, etc. - and even then mine still have problems. The only way I can prevent the asymmetry it is to turn off the "active sound" features altogether. But this means that not only don't I get full noise-cancelling, I can't even safely use them just to listen to music in any spaces where I need to be able to hear my surroundings. They are now worse than the regular Airpods that I gave up when I got them.

This is completely unacceptable for a product that costs $250, but at this point I'm exasperated. I'm tired of going to the Apple Store, and it's presumably not even open right now with the virus going. I wish I could just turn them in and get a refund, but I think it's been too long. If I could do that I'd probably even buy a new pair of the regular ones and just go back to those; mine had worked mostly without problems for over a year. At this point I don't know what to do about it all except hope there's a recall-like process like they did with the butterfly keyboards.

Some credit cards offer extended warranties - maybe worth a look if the card you purchased with offers some sort of purchase protection. You'd need the receipt, of course.

Alas, they were a gift :/

Earwax varies across different races thanks to biology ( consistency, color ) so one possibility is that their test group didn't cover some for an extended wearing period m

> AirPods firmware updates happen automatically. And unlike with iOS and macOS updates, they can’t be stopped. You’re getting the update whether you like it or not.

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