Spain is moving to permanently establish universal basic income
businessinsider.com
businessinsider.com
I think the general view is "some ministers in Spain would like to implement UBI"
How that works, especially with freedom of movement from the rest of the EU, is anyones guess
I think there was a test case in 2015 that said you could have tests that a resident was not there just to claim benefit, but I think the point was that it was illegal to just completely restrict a benefit to your own citizens.
This was already answered. Germany has a welfare-system which is basically a restrictec UBI, and there were non-german eu-citizen demanding access to it and went as high as the European Court of Justice.
Result: they have no right to claim social welfare outside their own country. Freedom of movement in EU has limits and you must behave like a proper local citizen (like working there for some time) to get access to other countries systems. And even then benefits are time limited.
bwb 1 day ago
I am in Spain and Bloomberg is just translating the comments of a far left party that has no ability to do that. Bad reporting.
> "Europe must respond united to the crisis," Nadia Calvino said in an interview with radio station Onda Cero. "I don't give up. We still think that, eventually, there must be a system of debt sharing, be they eurobonds, coronabonds or reconstruction bonds."
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/01/world/europe/01re...
Hear, hear! :D
I share your condition and concerns.
1) out of everyone I know, working- to middle-class, only three people 'own' a house. One of them inherited it from their father, and the other recently bought one with a mortgage and has an unusually stable job. Of the rest of us/them, I'd say a good 70% live in a flatshare (regardless of whether they're in their twenties of thirties), 20% live in a small apartment with their partner, and the remaining 10% or so have some kind of studio apartment because they make decent money or because their student organization provided them with cheap housing.
2) with the exception of those who have jobs where a pension is built up automatically, none have bothered. Which is probably about 80% of them (100+ people). And in conversation the general assumption is that any kind of pension will probably not exist by the time we need them, so why bother (not saying I agree, btw).
That said, I'd say my social network skews toward working class and educated-but-not-STEM. And urban, which favors the precariat.
However I currently live in Amsterdam, where the 47 m2 apartment I inhabit costs around 350k euros to buy, which is quite a bit for a matchbox in a 120 yr old house.
On top of that, I suspect that in NL the age of retirement for me will be around 72, which is ridiculously late; plus, whatever pension I get will almost certainly not be enough for me to have a decent life on. The state pension here is minuscule and the private ones are a racket, like everywhere else.
My point is that you can't really rely on a pension and you should act as if you won't get one (even though that's what's owed to you).
I think that it's better to think about goverment-provided retirement as something that _might_ happend, and would be nice, but not as something that you can relay on in your golden years. Unfortunately, that will leave some underpriviledged people screwed. I also understand that I'm very lucky, with my skillset and bringing up, to be able to plan for it myself.
As a self-employed programmer with a decent breadth of experience and as an autodidact with low needs, I consider myself very lucky too, but I worry for a lot of my friends.
If you know it's questionable why aren't you paying more in now so that it isn't as questionable? Rather than hoping for potential UBI?
Not to mention that for a lot of people paying more is not an option since they simply wouldn't be able to afford it.
Do you trust the pension fund people to make the right decisions?
What happens if the pension fund collapses because it's run by crooks and morons?
I'm not saying that you shouldn't invest in that, but treat it like what it is - a relatively risky investment, not like what it's marketed as, namely a sure thing.
Why? States aren't made of infinite money.
I have some doubts about whether it can work, but if it does, we should think about the new economic reality.
At the moment though, I get the image of Wily E Coyote running over the cliff edge, but he hasn't looked down yet.
Fortunately, other states already have tried this, and shown that it causes immense economic harm. Specifically, we have the examples of Venezuela (53,798,500% inflation since 2016), Zimbabwe (peaked at 79,600,000,000% per month), and Weimar Germany (merely 29,500% per month at its peak).
So you should be asking, what if we manage to print all this money and something truly terrible, horrible, and damaging to the lives of everyone in the country happens? And what if it's something easily predicted by almost any economist and with massive historical precedents? And what if it sets the stage for genocidal dictators and the most violent war in history, as it did in the case of Weimar Germany?
People vastly overestimate how much money the wealthy have even if we taxed them at 100% and somehow prevented them and their wealth from fleeing to some tax haven somewhere.
I only mean to push back on this because your comment seems to be dismissive of the entire concept while seeming to closely align with the interests of the kinds of people who don’t want it (the wealthy).
I find the idea of just not bothering to tax wealth because they’ll just find a tax haven elsewhere to be defeatist nonsense. It’s not hard to craft legislation that forces the wealthy to pay.
If we are overestimating how much wealth the wealthy possess, how is it that three people own more wealth than over half of the entire United States?
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/09/gates-bezos-buffett-have-mor...
Excess wealth needs to be taxed because being excessively wealthy is bad for society as a whole, just like we tax alcohol and cigarettes.
Edit: As far as the three wealthiest in the US owning that much, it still amounts to very little per capita if redistributed to the entire population. You could give every individual in the US a one-time payment of about $3,000, after which there'd be no more money to take from them. The top 1% only have about $25 trillion in combined wealth, which would be enough to fund a UBI of ~$3,000 a month for two years, after which you'd run out of money. And that's pretending that a massive looting of the holdings of the nation's wealthiest wouldn't have any significant economic side effects (and that they wouldn't all just flee to tax havens). And that's ignoring that a good chunk of that wealth is not held in liquid assets.
The combined wealth of the entire 1% is ~$25 trillion. Population of the US ~330 million. Equally distributed and paid out over 24 months comes out to ~3,156. If you only give it to adults (~255 million) the numbers aren't much better.
$3,000 a month is barely enough to get by in several major cities. It'd be fine out in the countryside, but in San Francisco, NYC, and several other major cities it would be barely enough to get a studio apartment and barely enough food to eat.
If it's not universal then it's a misnomer. And it's just another welfare/entitlement program then.
>It’s also amazing that the top 1% can just find everyone in the United States for two whole years. Doesn’t that just prove my point that inequality is a huge problem?
No, not particularly? Why does that matter, other than the usual arguments about wealth in the hands of the poor leading to more marginal consumption and therefore possibly leading to more economic growth?
>Preventing tax haven flee is easy. The US already does this, charging income tax to high income expats. If those expats don’t pay they have big issues if they ever set foot in the country again.
And if you tax them at 100%, or whatever obscenely high rate you're proposing, they won't ever set foot in the country again, and won't have any desire to do so. And they can avoid worries about extradition etc. by simply renouncing their US citizenship before their tax burden becomes too great, something that already happens even with our current tax rates
You get amazing benefits from a government handling healthcare and I think you would get many of those with UBI.
UBI could work.
The issue is not the math. The issue is the ideology of redistribution.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-top-1-per-cent-saw-fa...
So if we tax the top 1% at 100%, we can give the bottom 50% enough to not even make rent in Toronto or Vancouver? See item 3 on my list. Also only giving the benefit to the bottom 50% is not universal basic income.
As for not benefiting the upper 50% I think you might be arguing against some position that doesnt exist. UBI would not benefit everyone directly. In fact if your on the upper end of the spectrum it would dramatically hurt you.
I would simply guess that it is the ideology of redistribution that you oppose, which is fine. But the math of this kind of redistribution works out. (The economics of it is a much more interesting question)
yet 6 $trillion from thin air to bail out big business, no problemo, signed by lunchtime.
Though I don't agree with UBI. It makes people dependent on government, who can fiddle figures to pay less, as with state pensions.
What's really needed is UBE - universal basic equity. Every citizen gets a stake (not 100%) in all of business, and shares in profits and dividends, derived from the economy they work to maintain and expand.
"mostly aimed at families, but differentiating between their circumstances."
Sounds really universal. How is this not typical income redistribution where someone picks the winners and losers?