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Comment by nvahalik | Hacker News Reader

> Without universal basic income, we are totally f@cked

UBI isn't a savior. UBI still requires that people, you know, pay taxes. If 30-40% of people have no income and are completely dependent upon the government, then you have slavery 2.0 (3.0?) and you will end up creating a worse, classed society than you had before: the ones receiving vs. those who pay for what everyone else gets.

Or the government just prints money and money doesn't mean anything anymore because the government controls what it is worth.

Either way things are not good, but they are not good in a way that just means people starve, it means that the foundation of society is crumbling.

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Regarding your first paragraph: At least in a lot of european countries, income tax isn't even the most lucrative tax for the government.

Additionally quite a few working people aren't paying income tax. When you can deduct 13k from your income each year, not many people working for a supermarket are paying income taxes for example. Example, Amazon and VW are creating high revenue in Austria and Germany yet their taxation is laughable. Maybe we shouldn't look that hard at income tax to support UBI

>At least in a lot of european countries, income tax isn't even the most lucrative tax for the government.

Can you provide a few examples? What other revenue streams do those governments have?

Norway has oil. (For now.)

VAT would be the most obvious one.

In Austria government collects more VAT than it does from income tax.

Then you have property tax, car tax (an additional 20% to the already 20% VAT), drugs tax (alcohol, beer, cigarettes ...), gas/fuel tax, flight tax, capital gains tax and probably many more i am forgetting now. those are just consumer taxes though

So going back to your earlier comment:

>>UBI isn't a savior. UBI still requires that people, you know, pay taxes. If 30-40% of people have no income and are completely dependent upon the government, then you have slavery 2.0 (3.0?) and you will end up creating a worse, classed society than you had before: the ones receiving vs. those who pay for what everyone else gets.

>Regarding your first paragraph: At least in a lot of european countries, income tax isn't even the most lucrative tax for the government.

I don't see how shifting your taxes from an income tax to a consumption tax changes anything. Rather than getting taxed to hell on your income, you're getting taxed to hell whenever you try to spend it.

because the argument was that with UBI you would have a loss of income tax and since that is the only tax available to the government, you have a complete loss of tax. if you are shifting to a consumption tax, you would not have a loss.

>if you are shifting to a consumption tax, you would not have a loss.

Isn't that just a matter of accounting? If you're going to give people free money, then tax them on it, it's equivalent to simply giving them less free money. In the end you're still taxing the working people.

Import/Export tariffs, excise tax (like VAT), payroll tax (also down), corporate tax. Though according to the following link, personal income tax is the largest chunk in the US.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sourc...

does the US actually have federal VAT?

Its true that VAT is prime source od government funding in EU but products need to be made somehow. So taxing scheme doesn't matters that much. UBI is distribution pattern, so there needs to be something to distribute in first place.

I though slavery was having a job you couldn't quit and weren't paid for? Having no job and guaranteed income seems pretty far from being owned by another human.

To think that American southern slave trade (e.g. plantations) is the only real form of slavery is extremely myopic.

What's a non-myopic view of slavery?

If dependence on a government for basic necessities is slavery, isn't any form of dependence slavery? Are trust fund recipients slaves? Are workers who depend on an employer slaves? Are people in debt slaves to their creditors?

Workers depending on their employers are wage slaves. It is particularly bad when in countries like America, a worker's _health_ is dependent on their employer.

But in general being "dependent" on the government is 100x better than being dependent on individual employers. I'd be much happier making 30% of what I do now if I did not have to plan for existing 30 years down the line when I'm automated, found non-essential, a victim of ageism, or simply invested in the wrong skills.

Taxing only the wealthiest americans could easily fund a UBI for everyone else. The middle class will not have to make any sacrifices

And do said wealthiest Americans get a say? They are going to be kicking and screaming (and rightfully so).

They should get one vote per person, the same as anyone else. That that puts them at a numerical disadvantage is their own fault for fostering economic inequality in the first place.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."

--Alexander Fraser Tytler

s/public treasury/untapped wealthy individuals and corporations/g

Also, which step are we on? Seems like we are on the "From apathy to dependence" stage.

The wealthiest will find ways of either not paying those taxes or leave the country.

Did you do the math? Somehow it doesn't work out

That's a great way to see the wealthiest people flee your country in droves.

If we were somehow able to liquidate the net worth of every billionaire in the US without any losses it might just about cover UBI, $1000/month for every adult, for one year. How are you planning to fund it for every year after the first.

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