Hello, LineageOS 17.1 | Hacker News Reader

Hello, LineageOS 17.1

lineageos.org

210 pointsqilo106 comments

I love the project but I worry about the brain trust working on and improving the project getting massive "OMGWTF?!" offers to work full-time for Google on Android itself. Over-paying per head to lure the main devs away from Lineage would be a devious and effective way to put a stop to it.

This actually happened once before -- Cyanogen himself spent several years working as an engineer at Samsung. The project didn't actually start running into serious sustainability issues until the team tried to build it into a company.

Of course, that's probably got to do with bus factor. A similar story happened w Paranoid Android, only OnePlus hired several of their devs to work on OxygenOS, and the project hasn't been the same since.

That's why I pay attention to the license when contributing to FOSS.

For MIT, BSD, Apache 2, it's quite easy for a company to hire a handful of active maintainers and starve the original project by redirecting their attention to a closed-source fork. http://hintjens.com/blog:27

GPL, and especially AGPL, are better in this regard.

But why would Google want to stop Lineage OS? First, in the grand scheme of things, Lineage OS is so small that it doesn't matter, according to stats.lineageos.org it's 1.7 million active installs (that have turned on tracking). Android on the other hand has around 2.5 billion devices.

Second, LineageOS might not ship Google apps by default, but opengapps makes it possible to install them, and Lineage OS installation guides mention it as an option. I guess many people do it so that they can participate in the Google ecosystem. So Lineage OS only adds more customers to Google's apps and services, more eyeballs that Google can sell.

The main damage is dealt on the device vendors due to the LineageOS use case as an aftermarket firmware creating less need for people to buy their new hardware. My phone was released in 2014. I bought it in 2020 and thanks to Lineage OS, I can use modern Android on it. IMO since then, phones have gotten worse in many regards (non-removable batteries, no jack, glass everywhere so that phones break more easily, overall more expensive, etc, ...), so I'm quite happy with this setup.

It's not that they care so much about stopping it as they want to steal the talent to work on Android proper. If you've got a person who's already reached an expert level understanding of the codebase, that is a valuable addition to any official team trying to push the project forward.

Although possible, I wish installing operative systems in phones was as simple as it is for computers. I'm already hearing experts saying it is the simple but it's not :(

Now is getting harder even on PCs, for instance Mac and Windows forcing hardware protection prevent anyone form installing other OSes on a machine

There's a full spectrum of possibilities here.

- Google lets you flash Android from the browser, using WebUSB: https://flash.android.com.

- Most Android phones can be unlocked and flashed with some command line tool.

- With Apple, you're screwed.

With an old enough iPhone bootrom you can install Android using a jailbreak:

https://projectsandcastle.org/

It's easier with some manufacturers than others.

Sony's android devices pioneered being extremely developer friendly, shame that department was closed. It's hopefully unrelated, but someone will interpret this as impact of being developer friendly on your business.

The main issue is phone vendors not sending their hardware support and other customisations upstream to the Linux kernel, bootloaders and AOSP, but the open source community sometimes does work on this. The second issue is boot security, but some companies allow unlocking and there are a lot of exploits for bootroms and kernels. The third issue is GPL violations and other binary-only hardware support (kernel drivers and userland daemons), but reverse engineering can help there.

It is definitely possible though, I've done it myself in 2012, but I pretty quickly gave up due to the above issues and the bugs I found in the hardware vendor code:

https://bonedaddy.net/pabs3/log/2012/12/03/debian-mobile/

Yep, I wish it was better as well. The situation has improved a little bit though. For example, you can upgrade to newer builds of the same LineageOS version OTA using a built-in updater app.

Takes practice and ideally having an extra phone that you aren’t scared of bricking although every mistake I made last time was recoverable from and it started to make more sense.

Depends on the phone I guess but I can't say I've ever spent more than 30 minutes following an XDA guide to flash a new Android OS.

With Treble, it's getting closer to this as one ROM can support many phones

You should consider Librem 5 or PinePhone.

Et voila: https://www.pine64.org/2020/04/02/pinephone-ubports-communit... .

/e/ is working on this. https://e.foundation/register-to-test-the-e-os-installer/

Excellent project, and glad 10 finally came through. I never buy a phone that isn't supported by LineageOS, and it's the first thing I install when I get a new (or old!) one.

I see my Pixel is not yet supported though (by 17.1). Could not find a list of phones that should be getting support later on. Anyone know if I am missing something?

LineageOS's supported devices are typically a bit older (e.g. Galaxy S6 but not, say, the S10). But support will likely come after some time.

Meanwhile, there's this new thing called Treble, where you can flash a generic ROM on any new Android phone. There isn't an official LOS Treble build (for various reasons), but it's a solution if you must have a 3rd party OS build.

Well, my Pixel XL is a bit older, and I happily run 9/16.0. Just can't find if it's planned to be lifted to 10/17.1.

I never buy one that can't run (any version) of LineageOS right now though. That's why I got this older Pixel in the first place. Its' the only way to get some sort of longterm updates and a degooglified Android.

OnePlus makes really good phones for good prices, and tends to have great support from Lineage. Only downside is that it's a Chinese brand. Of course you're replacing the OS wholesale, which would get rid of any traditional telemetry, but technically it's possible there's something nefarious in the firmware itself, depending on how paranoid you are.

> There isn't an official LOS Treble build (for various reasons)

could someone share what those reasons are?

Looks like the gsi (general system image) that vendors need to boot to demonstrate treble compatability - is mostly tested for exactly just booting/starting. So any phone that supports treble will boot gsi/boot an image derived from gsi - but not all phones will work with gsi - for a meaningful definition of "work as a full android phone".

In other words treble/gsi seems to be a bit of a half-measure - and if you "port" à given rom to treble/gsi - it still will only work on some subset of treble phones :'(

This is what I gleaned from some searching, anyway:

https://www.xda-developers.com/unofficial-lineageos-17-gsi-r...

(after first finding this, and being a bit confused):

"Changelog 16 - Smart Styles, Treble is trouble and Omfg Oreo"

https://www.lineageos.org/Changelog-16/

There's also annoying variations in GSI's - you need separate images not just for 32-bit vs. 64-bit but for A-only vs. A+B boot support, and sometimes for different "base AOSP" releases - GSI's for devices that shipped with Aosp versions 8.x, 9.x, 10.x are not always guaranteed to work consistently.

The Pocofone F1 is really cheap and really good. The only downside is the lack of NFC. I got my dad one last year with LOS as replacement for his Windows Phone which is no longer supported by WhatsApp.

Last I used Lineage (a couple years ago), device support was entirely community-driven. Basically someone has to come forward and say "I want to be the champion for device X", and then that person or Lineage had to have one of that device physically on-hand for testing, and then that person and any others who volunteer are responsible for porting each new version to that device and maintaining compatibility.

So the spread of devices tends to be based on how popular/beloved that device is by the community. This can partly have to do with price/specs, but it also has to do with how easy it is to maintain (does it have a locked bootloader? is it available internationally? does it have weird, proprietary drivers that are hard/impossible to get working?).

For example: the Samsung Galaxy S 3-5 are still supported. The S3 came out in 2012 (it was a great phone with an unlocked bootloader; I had one). On the other hand, I don't see any mainline Galaxies newer than the S5 on the device list.

OnePlus tends to be well-supported.

Nexus devices were well-supported, but perhaps the Pixels have gotten more locked-down? I haven't been keeping up with that sort of thing.

>On the other hand, I don't see any mainline Galaxies newer than the S5 on the device list.

They started locking their bootloaders, and nobody has been able to bypass the lock.

That can't be right, as e.foundation sell S7 and S9 preloaded. I haven't done it, but flashing instructions are at https://doc.e.foundation/devices/starlte/install for example.

The international Exynos version is crackable. The one that matters, the Snapdragon version that will work with US networks is not cracked.

You mean "the one that matters" to you? You realize most people don't live in the US, right?

Also, people that live in the US and don't want Qualcomm's insecure-by-design integrated baseband/application processors.

Shouldn't Exynos version work with US networks, too? It's all GSM, after all.

Kind of. The US has some different frequency allocations so it won't work in all areas.

Pixel boot-loader is locked if you buy it from a carrier rather than direct from google. The Nexus 6 I got from Verizon did not have a locked boot-loader.

I experienced this as well with my Moto G ("falcon"), an ultra popular budget phone from 2013 that was also supported by Cy/Lineage for years after it was abandoned by the manufacturer and carrier.

My own unit finally got itself stuck in a crash loop after two battery and one screen replacements that kept it tottering along.

> Could not find a list of phones that should be getting support later on. Anyone know if I am missing something?

Yes, the idea of supporting new phones on LineageOS is completely dead. You can find unofficial ROMs on the XDA forums, or you can use a phone that's had support for several years.

Two months ago I bought an OP3T on Ebay specifically for LOS 16 and I am super happy with it.

Actually, I am running LOS for microG so I can still use apps like Uber, Moia or FreeNow.

OnePlus phones have been so far the best devices for LOS. OP phones are great by themselves. One reason why they have been so consistently supported by the LOS project is because the boot loader is unlocked with ease.

> Uber, Moia or FreeNow

Does Uber work fine with microG? Last I tried the map rendering was messed up and I couldn't really use it.

It was broken for me for a couple weeks, but one of the recent updates (either LOS or Uber, not sure) fixed it and it works fine now.

It works but it sometimes takes some fiddling or restarts with those kind of google depending apps until the intention is accomplished. So, I wouldn't recommend LOS to the average user. But most apps I use work perfectly fine.

> So, I wouldn't recommend LOS to the average user.

LineageOS works fine with google apps, if you install OpenGApps. It all depends on why you're using LineageOS - if you're trying to use MicroG, you're probably trying to avoid google spying on you. On the other hand, if you have an older phone for which you want more features/security updates, OpenGApps works fine.

LOS with GApps flashed makes it work without any issues, it's just that some apps don't work if you replace GApps with microG.

I try to go as far without Google as I can. So I use microG. Generally, I am very happy with the experience and don't look back to my S7. It's my backup phone. For traveling I might resort to it to be on the safe side - also that's when I am most dependent on apps requiring GApps.

Having OnePlus phones running OxygenOS completely removed any need I previously had to flash a custom rom as soon as I bought it.

It's such a nice out of the box pure Android experience with monthly updates. They are doing a stellar job.

Its still great to know once they drop support I can keep my OnePlus 6 going for a few extra years with LinageOS.

If you have a phone that runs like crap because of all the bloat I can't recommend flashing Linage enough.

What should I get if I'd like a phone that's 1. not huge 2. not ancient as in max 2y old and 3. runs LineageOS? I have a Nexus 5 now. The rubber has started to peel off, the battery is toast. I wanted to get a Galaxy S10e but can't flash it with any decent non spyware.

Have you checked this?

https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s10/samsung-galaxy-s...

Best I could swing a year or two ago was a Moto X4; still running it and looks like it has a 17.1 maintainer.

Still bigger than I'd like and no user-replaceable battery :(

Does have a MicroSD card slot though.

Removed 16.0 devices:

Wilefox Storm (kipper)

Xiaomi Redmi Note 7 Pro (violet)

Yu Yuphoria (lettuce)

---

I bought a device with the express purpose of installing Lineage OS and not having to worry about it for the next ~5 years. Less than four months later support was removed.

Just like the constructors (whom you actually pay), supporting additional devices comes with a cost unfortunately :'(

Well, there's no guarantee. It's shipped by unpaid maintainers that have to deal with a barrage of users that treat them like absolute crap.

Source: created my own ROMs and witnessed the hell that it is to be a developer on XDA.

> Source: created my own ROMs and witnessed the hell that it is to be a developer on XDA.

"What works: You tell me!"

see also "VoLTE, when???"

TBH, it's just hell to be on XDA, user or dev.

You can still find 'unofficial' builds for these devices on xda, they're simply not officially maintained.

Or compile it yourself. My device lost "official" support, but following instructions on the wiki worked pretty well.

You should ask for your money back.

https://e.foundation supports more devices (still based on LineageOS, but actively de-Googled). My Nexus 5 is one such. They also sell refurbished phones with /e/ pre-installed (in Europe).

Device list is here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices/

/e/ isn't more actively de-googled than lineage, /e/ still uses Google's captive portal and fallback DNS, and that's the only google bits left in AOSP or LineageOS.

Also saying that /e/ support more devices is pretty misleading. Sure you can have /e/ on Nexus 5, but Nougat version only. And you can still get Nougat LineageOS for Nexus 5.

Also if your definition of supported is "works on", there is a LineageOS Oreo for Nexus 5 available. Nexus 5 is no longer officially supported by LineageOS simply because LineageOS has requirements as to the security of the device, but /e/ pretty doesn't care about security.

What's insecure about Nexus 5 phones for the LineageOS project to stop supporting them?

Google dropped support, Broadpwn (CVE-2017-9417) was released, and there are no blobs to fix it. This stops the device from meeting requirements in the Lineage Charter, thus it is dropped from official status.

Nexmon was working on it last I checked, but it's highly unlikely this device will get any of this backported and built for Android.

I confess I didn't think it was vulnerable to that. If it is the reason LineageOS dropped it, the drop was a long time coming (2019).

It uses ecloud for the portal, defaults to the provider DNS (but you can change that), and treats any behind-the-scenes contact with Google (and others) as a bug to be fixed.

I don't think the support range is misleading at all, looking at the device lists, whatever versions are involved. It's support the same as for any free software OS, with maintenance and frequent OTA updates, not random XDA downloads. I don't know if the company provides commercial support. I'm not a developer, so I can't comment on the degree to which they care about security other than it relates to privacy, and the firmware quotes a recent Android security level.

Of course, /e/ is built on LineageOS, and obviously indebted to it. (I was disappointed to find it hadn't been contributing back changes.)

Usually the only thing required to get a device on the supported list is an active maintainer that can support that device and do the work for the build files, etc.

And I'd say usually when a device is removed like this, it's not usually technical- it's because the maintainer(s) got a new phone / new job / new whatever and can't maintain the build target any longer.

Basically, what I'm saying is if it matters that much to you, step up and be a maintainer. If not, don't. I know it sucks, but there's not really much of an alternative here.

I'd recommend this as a great time to start building directly from the source (either LOS or AOSP) so you can provide yourself with updates, including Android Security Bulletins, as they are merged in to LOS or AOSP.

You won't get any device-specific updates or bugfixes without applying them yourself (or going out of tree), but someone already did the hard work since it's an official device and has essentially full functionality. You'll be able to keep your device supported until Lineage drops the version.

Curiously, which device did you purchase?

So, where does one start, and what's the process?

I'd be looking to get a nexus 5x to run 17.1

To start, https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/bullhead/build but you won't get 17.1 support from official Lineage sources. The most you can do is the latest 15.1 with the last ASB merge from Google, but at that point you may as well find the last official and install.

I'd recommend looking for other 'trustworthy' developers who are working on your device in the open. You can install their pre-compiled builds or you can use their sources for your own builds. There are unofficial builds of Android 17.1 on XDA [0].

0. https://forum.xda-developers.com/nexus-5x/development/rom-li...

It was the Redmi Note 5 (Whyred). They're pretty popular in India and a low cost option in Australia.

https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack

It's based on using an AWS instance; build times are in the order of:

"1.75 hours on a c5.4xlarge. 5 hours when Chromium is also needed"

Also, https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack#costs

I want LineageOS so badly, but it does not support the Samsung A50. (Frankly, no projects like it apparently do) I didn't know before I bought it and now I'm stuck with it. :/

It's till unclear to me if I can now just download the new zip, download the new openGapps (on the phone), boot to twrp, select both zips and boot into them keeping all my apps and their data. I don't need adb right? Also, I don't need to loose any data, right?

Edit: Well for anyone reading this, I just did this and everything works and I have android 10 (with all apps and their data intact. Took 10 min, very nice).

you had LineageOS installed already though?

Yes, indeed and twrp, on my OnePlus3. New installs require complete wiping afaik.

Just updated on my oneplus3 after reading this!

Depends on your device state. If you've unlocked your bootloader already, you should only need to wipe system-level partitions (which would affect applications, but not user storage).

But if you haven't, you need to do that first, which requires you to wipe your entire device, including data.

I was quite happy to use LineageOS for my Nexus 5X and it worked great up to the point where my bootloader was now unlocked and certain apps, like for the bank or remote access apps, did not work anymore, as they considered the device unsecure. Do other phones allow you to flash the bootloader checksum, so you can lock it again?

Make sure to check out Magisk.

There are a few AVB 2.0 devices that will allow this, including the Pixel series, and the OnePlus 5T, but it can be risky. GrapheneOS works seamlessly with it, allowing you to relock the bootloader and only accept signed-OTA updates.

You may be interested in the Magisk [0] project which allows your device to pass Google's "SafetyNet" and present as an unmodified device to apps using that API to detect if they should refuse to run for "security" reasons.

0. https://github.com/topjohnwu/Magisk

Note that Google SafetyNet is now (as of mid-March 2020) requiring hardware-based remote attestation in order to pass their "CTS" check. This check will fail if the bootloader is not in its default "locked" state, and cannot be feasibly bypassed by Magisk. https://github.com/topjohnwu/magisk_files/blob/master/notes....

Magisk (and even its 'hide' component) will still be useful for many purposes, but we should not be expecting it to pass all such "safety" checks.

As a sibling comment suggested, using Magisk Hide lets you conceal your rooted status from those apps. Had this happen with my banking apps, and can confirm (on my Nexus 5x) that Magisk Hide did allow me to use those apps.

As for reflashing, you have to have a copy of the original image, for the device which you can download from various places, but once you have it, you may reflash it back to factory and relock.

Aren't those banking apps usually simply check whether root is available on the device and bail if they found it? You might be able to circumvent it using magisk to hide root, or simply don't install root support when installing lineageos (that's what I do as I don't need root anymore these days, and I haven't found any app that complains about insecure rom yet, Safetynet status is also passed).

Does this call out to google services by default? I stopped paying attention after they rejected MicroG.

No, it does not, but it does (often) contain some proprietary drivers.

What you are (probably) referring to is the rejection of signature spoofing patches required to use MicroG, probably over security concerns.

LineageOS is however still the best (mostly) free version of Android, by far. Almost all custom ROMs not based on manufacturer ones or AOSP are based on LineageOS and that's for a very good reason. I consider it the Debian of Android.

Because of the rejection of the patches (and LineageOS still being pretty cool, with impressive hardware support), the microG project provides builds of LineageOS with microG pre-installed and man, it's great! Everything just works. Hardware support is the same as that of LineageOS. Consider me a happy customer :-)

https://lineage.microg.org/

I believe both DNS and the network connectivity check hit Google endpoints after a fresh install.

If only there could be an open source desktop version of Android on par with Samsung's Dex...

Desktop docking support for AOSP is hardware dependent. If it works on a Samsung stock build, it should work on the same device when flashed w/ official LineageOS.

Yes, but the desktop interface of AOSP is far behind Samsung's as far as I know.

Tl;dr up front: For now. The UI absolutely isn't as fleshed out, but that's not the thing that makes this important.

Yeah, it's built primarily as a test environment for apps that require free-form multiwindow, multi-resume, and the like -- think foldables, mostly. So it's pretty skeletal at the moment. (Incidentally it's also hidden behind a developer flag.)

However, it's managed by the system launcher, meaning it can be extended by the community or by OEMs, and the Android team is actively encouraging people to do that. It also means that there's a set of standard interfaces for them to build this functionality on. The latest version of DeX was reworked to use it, LG rolled out an implementation with Android 10, and there have been rumors of Nvidia working on a transformable SHIELD device. (I would assume EMUI Desktop was also rebased, but haven't seen anything confirming that.) It's also starting to pop up in custom ROMs like BlissOS.

This has much bigger implications than DeX did (or foldables do), imo, for a few reasons:

- Google has been slowly building out broader, less hardware-dependent support for large form factors across a variety of projects - from ChromeOS' Android runtime (which will also benefit from more developers targeting this), to Fuchsia's scalable UI, to Flutter's recent web and desktop support, to PWAs (which are responsive by definition) and their integration into pretty much every major platform. The ecosystem around convergence across their products is actually a bunch of different pieces that are all evolving somewhat in parallel, all of which are somewhat symbiotic with one another, and many of which you can try out in some form right now.

- That said, this particular piece has a much lower barrier to entry. You don’t need a particular class of Android device or laptop, or a specific product, or a custom ROM, or even root. That doesn’t mean the average user will pick this up for a while, but the fact that the average user can guarantees that a bunch of tinkerers and power users already are. Something which never happened at scale for, say, Android tablets.

- This creates a lot more incentive to build for desktops, with the potential to then recycle that larger UI for form factors like tablets. Giving desktop UIs a standard base means that supporting, say, DeX no longer has to mean writing a vendor-specific implementation (see also: biometric sensors, styli, and various other hardware classes that the ecosystem has picked up over time, but only got broad third-party support after being added to AOSP), and the fact that it only requires a display output on your device enables you to target a much broader audience (even if your current audience is mostly just places like XDA).

Putting aside broader conversations about the kinds of use cases that could arise from convergent UIs, I’d argue that this is one of the biggest steps forward we’ve had in a while toward making that future actually happen.

Thanks for your complete response. Do you have info about android 11's take on the desktop interface ?

Upgrading to LineageOS 17.1 on Fairphone 2 via adb sideload worked like a breeze for me. Seems to be fully functional. Kudos to the maintainer chrmhoffmann!

Notes:

- It looks almost like 16.0, except for some icons.

- There is no root image available so far, so you can’t use e.g. Adaway for now.

Disappointed they didn't add any new google devices. It seems odd to me they built this off of the Pixel 4 tag but they don't support the Pixel 4 (or the 2,or 3, or 3A).

I'll just keep running vanilla AOSP on my 3A :/

As a Pixel 3a owner, you might be interested in GrapheneOS -> https://grapheneos.org/

I hadn't heard of this, thank you

I am very eager to see the number of handsets supported increase. Right now only my Galaxy S4 is supported; I would like to put this on my Nokia 3.1 Plus!

Nokia doesn't allow bootloader unlocking afaik, so until they do support it, chances of LineageOS on it are slim.

I would LOVE, LOVE, for them to setup auto update without having to manually install everytime new update comes around. Still running OS 14 on Galaxy S5.

Sorry, but LineageOS is pretty much a joke now. Most maintainers just randomly stop maintaining devices after a little bit of time. Also, there is shady stuff at the limits of legality when it comes to proprietary binaries. They preach security is their focus, but doesn't look like that.

Also, vendor roms are quite good already, no need to install unstable roms like it's 2015.

yeah, so a more positive mind would call for more people to join in on a good cause here.

The main value I find in LineageOS is for devices past the end of vendor support. If LineageOS supports a device I own, great, I get to keep using it with security updates for extra months or years I wouldn't have otherwise.

>Most maintainers just randomly stop maintaining devices after a little bit of time.

Hasn't that always been the case? The project is community-driven and nobody wants to maintain a device they don't use anymore. Often there are other maintainers, but sometimes there are none.

>They preach security is their focus, but doesn't look like that.

I wasn't aware of any big security issues. Can you give an example? In terms of security patches LOS is usually more up to date then the OEM roms.

>vendor roms are quite good already, no need to install unstable roms like it's 2015.

They also come with all kinds of stuff many people don't want on their phones. If want current security patches (especially on older devices) and no Google Apps, preinstalled vendor apps, telemetry etc. you still have to install a custom rom. In my experience LOS is very stable too.

> They also come with all kinds of stuff many people don't want on their phones. If want current security patches (especially on older devices) and no Google Apps, preinstalled vendor apps, telemetry etc. you still have to install a custom rom. In my experience LOS is very stable too.

This. I can highly recommend https://grapheneos.org if you have a device that can run it.

Only Google Pixels if anyone is wondering.

It's not a joke. You can get a Nexus 5X or an original Google Pixel and have a beast of a phone.

https://niftylettuce.com/posts/google-free-android-setup/

The Nexus 5X and Pixel C only have LineageOS 15.1 and the Google Pixel only has 16.0.

> and the Google Pixel only has 16.0.

... which was the latest version until 17.1 came out 2 days ago. I hope you're not going to hold that against them...

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