Hacker News Reader

Comment by BlackCherry | Hacker News Reader

This blog post over complicates and mythologizes an extremely simple process. That is to not be embarrassed or ashamed to ask people you want something from what you can do to get it.

Additionally, this is survivorship bias. His emails sounded very professionally immature and while this companies leadership may have found it endearing, I could easily see other groups of people finding it off putting.

What this guys effort signaled to me is that he’s probably annoyingly overeager, but willing to basically do whatever I want him to do whenever and however long I want him to do it. In other words he’d be a good lackey.

If you want to shamelessly signal that you’d be a decent lackey for an obscure to medium startup this may be decent advice. And this may not be a bad thing, I know Casey Neistat’s employee Jack Coyne did something similar and it opened up a lot of doors for him.

View on HN

I think it also depends what you're looking for. If you're applying for one of multiple already-existent temporary positions for inexperienced people enthusiastic about learning on the job, appearing to be desperately keen on working for that company specifically probably gives you the edge over many other candidates that might have slightly more impressive universities on their CV. Some fields like marketing might appreciate creative approaches to hacking their recruitment process too, though they'll be more interested in whether your powerpoints are actually good.

If you're a mid-level software engineer trying to get a well-paid job at a company working on completely different technical problems to your skillset and not actively hiring, it's probably wasted effort.

That's pretty much how I read it as well. Sure, for an internship, lots of enthusiasm probably differentiates you from a form letter and a resume (which, lacking much real experience, doesn't tell you a lot anyway). And, honestly, a followup along the lines of "Thanks. I'm still really interested in your company. Do you have internships or other programs?" would probably have worked at least as well as offering to fetch coffee.

But, as you say, you're probably not going to get an opening created for you unless you have connections and/or a special skillset.

Agree the post over-complicates this.

Also, the message and approach should be very different depending on who you're reaching out to and for what reason (example: getting a job versus getting a client).

Providing value is important, but the goal of the first email is simply to get someone to reply, not overload them with info upfront (like what was suggested as one of the examples, a 13-page PowerPoint deck with data analysis).

I find providing 1-2 specific concrete ideas related to your product, service or ask and tailored for your prospect's business is enough to get an interested reply. Some good templates for this here: https://artofemails.com/new-clients

The way I see it he was just very motivated to get the job / internship. I didn't find his emails "professionally immature" either.

For sure I'd much rather invite / interview him as opposed to one of the 100s who just send their CV via email with not much else.

To clarify "professional immaturity" does not mean personally immature/childish. It means he comes across as extremely green, new to the professional world, etc.

I also read the CEO’s first response as, “it looks like you already have a job, but if you’re looking next year, we’d love to have you.” versus the author’s framing of, “No thanks. Try again next year.”

Unless I’m mistaken, the author never indicated that he was looking for a Fall internship until the second email. I doesn’t feel like he was ever actually rejected.

I didn't find his email professionally immature. I think it's an overstatement to somehow infer that these emails signal a lackey.

> somehow infer that these emails signal a lackey.

"Does the team need an office manager, receptionist, coffee runner, etc.?"

> willing to basically do whatever I want him to do whenever and however long I want him to do it. In other words he’d be a good lackey.

This is unnecessarily condescending. When having to choose from a crowded field of seemingly-competent candidates, it's natural to want someone who is passionate and willing to go the extra mile. And as someone who is genuinely passionate to work in a certain industry or to work for a specific company, it is also smart to signal your dedication using tactics like what the author described.

Neither of the above warrants condescending to someone as "being a good lackey"

> Definition: a person who is obsequiously willing to obey or serve another person or group of people.

While it's true that lackey is condescending, it's also accurate. We have euphemized "lackey" with less condescending terms like "gopher" or even phrases like "you'll do what it takes". He clearly signaled in his follow up email that he was willing to do "what it takes" to "get in" with the company: "Does the team need an office manager, receptionist, coffee runner, etc."

His telegraphed servility is exactly in line with the very definition you posted.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com