Show HN: Discreet dead man's switch for victims of domestic abuse | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Discreet dead man's switch for victims of domestic abuse

deadmantracker.com

112 pointsdeif114 comments

At the risk of sounding insensitive - I don't understand what this is. I know what a dead man's switch is, of course - maybe an app that emails your next in kin your email password or cryptocurrency private key if you haven't checked in for a few months. But what would this do? SMS the hospital/police if it's been 24 hours since you played hangman? What is an actual example of intended use?

I know it's probably not this simple, but it seems to me that if you're at the point where you're installing apps to take action in the case you're incapacitated by abuse, you should probably skip the app part and just take that action immediately...

I was also confused, but I think it probably isn’t a dead man switch at all, maybe it’s a panic button.

This is a classic fallacy in regards to abusive relationships. Something along the lines of "just leave the relationship", or, "just press charges for past abuses before the next one comes and have him taken away".

I've heard this before, but am not sure to what it refers. What is this fallacy? I always figured people could just get a restraining order or a concealed carry license if needed. Do the situations of abuse commonly preclude this?

Abuse can come with gaslighting and control of communication, so the abused may not trust that the alternative is better, or have the ability to get help quickly enough and permanently enough to avoid retaliation.

Yes, very much so. Abusers arrange for various forms of leverage over the people, ranging from emotional to financial, and then children or other dependents make everything that much more complex.

Abusers are like an exponentially worse than a typical asshole. They have no shame and will do anything to get their way. They are highly manipulative, but at more controlling and intimate level. They get into the head of their victims to control them with guilt, shame, "love", affection, blackmail, isolation, access to children, etc and reinforce that control with physical abuse.

The manipulation makes it difficult for the victim to act. Family suspects the victim is a little unglued, Friendships are disrupted early on, etc.

Read about this guy as an extreme example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Raniere

This guy was a self-help guru type who leveraged guilt and blackmail to literally build a company around having a harem of sex slaves.

It's compounded by the fact that typical abusers are charming people and normal people cannot imagine the full extent of spouse/child abuse, consequently everything the victim says must be totally made up.

The cops are specially evil in that regard, incidence of family abuse in the steroid gang is 5 times the regular population. If you call the police you may find they'll side against the caller.

You've heard some other responses, but also consider that the abused person still often feels like it isn't that bad, and that the abuser doesn't really mean it, etc etc (usually the result of psychological abuse).

In this scenario, it's easy for the alert part of the brain to say "let's just download this app and set it up, just for the heck of it, even though I don't really need it," and it won't feel like the same kind of commitment that is needed to actually leave the relationship, or get a restraining order etc.

Or, similarly, a concerned friend could say "I know you say he'll never take away your phone, but let's just set this up, for the heck of it." Again, the victim may agree, with the one part of their mind knowing it's the right thing to do, and providing plausible deniability for the other part of their mind.

Often, yes. Abusers are not just people who are occasionally randomly violent. They are people who are deeply controlling, and use violence as part of that control. If you're at all interested, I strongly recommend this very readable book on abuser psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling-ebook/dp...

It's also important to remember that our society spent centuries where women were effectively property of men. We've been digging our way out of that, but there's still a lot of overhang. The level of cultural and legal support for women leaving abusive men varies a lot from place to place and person to person.

Sounds like that book takes the heteronormative approach that abusers are always men and victims always women. That's problematic because it erases gay victims, lesbian victims, and straight male victims, all of whom already have even less cultural and legal support as victims than straight female victims do.

The book in fact addresses that point. The author was a DV counselor in court-ordered programs. The vast majority of the people he saw were straight men, so he wrote what he knew. He's not erasing anything.

I doubt many lesbian or straight male victims would assume they'd be helped by a book called "why does he do that" when they were abused by shes.

Sure. That's good because they shouldn't assume that. The author isn't assuming that either; as I said, he wrote what he knew and was clear on that. I'm sure he'd be thrilled if other people wrote books covering the things he didn't know enough to cover.

That said, some GLBT people have said they find the book valuable. Even as a straight man, I found it very useful, and not just domestically. Abuser psychology doesn't just come out in romantic relationships; for example, it was great in helping me see what was going on with an abusive boss. I walked out of a terrible meeting saying, "What the hell just happened?" Later I had an inkling, so I opened up to the chapter on abuser types. In one meeting, the boss hit 80% of the characteristics of the "Mr Right" type.

Concealed carry is not an option for many people: if you have a history of alleged crime yourself, if you live in states or counties that make that unreasonably difficult, or if you are entirely dependent on the finances and will of another person (try sneaking away for the required training and time to pass a background check when you're bordering on a human trafficking situation), it's effectively impossible. There's also wait periods. People have been murdered during cooling-off periods because they didn't have a gun until it was clear their partner wanted to kill them, but by then it was too late to wait 5 days. There's only so much the police can do about your intuition, or even a verbal threat.

Restraining orders also only stop people willing to respect them. If someone wants to commit murder, the idea of violating a restraining order marginally increasing the punishment and risk of capture changing their mind is a bit laughable.

It's a long answer to this, but I'd suggest people look up the "Wanted Podcast" episode 22 to understand similar situations better. It's 2 bail recovery agents telling a story of a skip they tracked down. She had missed a court date (probably because of her situation - being effectively forced into prostitution). She was in a terrible situation, but because of drug addiction and other psychological control in an abusive relationship, she couldn't bring herself to leave. She had called her parents for help, but then called back and told them to ignore it. One of the toughest people I've ever known hesitated to confront the man controlling her life. She had a phone at times, but it could be taken away by her captor, and when she had chances to leave she wouldn't take them. I doubt she specifically would use an app like this, but it's a case of not wanting to leave, being able to leave whenever she wants, but at times it escalates and she wants to leave but loses her ability to call for help.

It's irrational, but it happens to people.

So in the cases of domestic abuse, the victims usually contact a charity that organises a way for them to escape safely. That means setting them up with a new place to live, a job so that they can afford to live (as usually victims will be dependent on their partners), etc. This takes a bit of time and the victims usually stay in their abusive environment if they can (due to over capacity of shelters and other reasons, I'm not the most knowledgeable about all this). But a support network will be available and they'll have a number to call, or friends and family that they can call instead.

The problem is that even though this support network exists, victims often have their phones taken away from their abusers so they end up stuck. If friends and family go round to the house, their abusers can refuse entry and say that the victim is fine or sleeping when in fact they're in danger. This app does not intend to phone authorities, it is down to the individual support network to organise that as they see fit, this app only intends to reach out to the support network as fast as possible when it is needed. If there is a true emergency and they can call emergency services then they can do so, emergency services are set up to handle this. In the case that the victims only want to notify their support network then they can do so from the app using the panic button.

It might be the case in the future that I build contacts with emergency services for a more involved response but I simply do not have the contacts at this point in time.

Constructive feedback: All the copy on both your website and in the app store assumes that one knows what a dead man's switch is in general, and what it means in this context in particular (ie, what you wrote above).

I had to use wikipedia to even (sort of) understand what you were selling.

It's also an absolute gobsmackingly terrible term to use for this application.

What makes you say that? It operates exactly like a dead man's switch.

i don't think the target audience of this app wants to think about being a "dead man", or dead anything, when this app would be useful. It's a fun nerd term, but if your life is actually in danger it's far from where your mind wants to wander, even though it's technically correct.

>a fun nerd term

It absolutely isn't. Lots of things have dead man switches, like locomotives and heavy machinery, and they're named as such.

Nerds work on locomotives and heavy machinery too. Those hard working folks are smart also. Unless your talking in a pirate voice, this is a nerd term for anything that kills something instantly.

Your target audience substantially isn’t men, and would probably be put off by the “dead” part too.

Since I’ll bet your target audience doesn’t already know what a “dead mans switch” is, you get a chance to come up with a better targeted term.

Technically this is a niche subset of my target audience.

As I wrote in the article, the ideal scenario was that I had two separate apps where it has a completely different name, but due to Apple restrictions I was forced to name it Dead Man (actually suggested by Apple themselves when I spoke to them over the phone discussing this issue) as the name has to cover both parts of the functionality even though the target audiences are completely different.

But this is not really going to be used by abuse victims of their own accord, it's more likely to be picked up by charities that need to set up a robust support network. It's a fine balance of SEO, networking, naming relevance, and sensitivity that I am tuned into.

How is that not gobsmackingly obvious to you??! Look at the words you just typed.

There are millions of other innocuous games whose names don't invoke death, men, capital punishment, gallows, prison, nooses, lynching, strangulation, hanging, suicide, murder, etc. For God's sake, pick one of those, instead of "hangman" and "dead man's switch".

Might as well call it "Kill My Abusive Boyfriend".

The whole point is NOT to be obvious when an abusive boyfriend looks through all the apps on your phone.

Hangman's not even a plausibly amusing game. Who even plays hangman on their phone?

How about "Pokemon NO!"

I completely agree with you, but as I explained in the article I am limited by Apple's restrictions. I could get around this by side loading the app but then I make the barrier to entry higher.

If you can believe it originally this was a 2048 game (see the android version) but Apple suggested they would only approve the app if it was a hang man game and I named it 'Dead Man'. I wish I were joking. You have to understand that this functionality did not exist before today and my target audience previously were travellers, students, journalists, and privacy conscious people so I'm stuck trying to be relevant to multiple sets of audiences and a technical term that has 'dead' and 'man' in the name.

I'm not sure I get what the issue with the Apple store is. I read the article, and I'm still confused. What did you want to do, and why did they not yet you do it? Why does the name of the app need to have any relation to what it does? There are plenty of apps named things like "Blorg" that do all kinds of things that there's not even a word for. The name doesn't need to be descriptive, it's just a brand. "Pokemon Go" doesn't have any meaning outside of the totally fictitious Pokemon universe. Just make something up like that, like "Glork Zonker Pro".

I wanted to release a completely separate app, appropriately named for victims of domestic abuse using a simple 2048 game with hidden dead man switch functionality. For 3 months going back and forth with Apple they told me the app was spam because it mimiced partial functionality of the existing app on the app store that is appropriately named for a completely different target audience (ones where dead man switch is completely relevant).

Apple would only approve the app if I integrated it into the existing app but not with the 2048 game because the name wouldn't match the functionality and a dead man switch app called 2048 doesn't make sense for the majority of users. You seem to be missing the fact that this app already exists with a current set of users already. Calling it Glorp Zonker Pro is not exactly relevant to them.

I still don't understand why the name matters, since you say the abuse shelter or support group would be the ones who recommend installing the app to the victim, and presumably they didn't find out about it by searching the app store for fun sounding games.

That's correct, they found me by searching for dead man switches.

I think you're going to have to market this through other channels, pushing the message out to people who would want to use and distribute it, instead of assuming that many people will think that there's a category of mobile software called "dead man's switch" and go searching for it. It's not obvious how "dead man's switch" had any connection with domestic abuse. It sounds more like a really ineffective health app.

This is Product B. Product A is deadman's switch. It is appropriately named for the target audience of Product A. Apple won't allow Product B on grounds that it's spamming variants of Product A. So he's forced to create Product B as an offshoot of Product A unless he's going to get rid of Product A to have the desired Product B

tl;dr Apple is forcing this unfortuate circumstance

As you may know, there is an app called Bright Sky which offers help to victims of abuse but that can be disguised as a weather app. From the reviews I’m not sure they have fully solved the ‘duplicitous’ aspect (it is available under Education). However something of this nature is very important so I wish all the devs. luck. As one further point, there must be people trapped in an abusive relationship who aren’t aware; i.e. that they have been manipulated into believing it is their fault and that nothing bad is being done to them. (I know there are such people from experience). I don’t feel I have said anything particularly useful but I thought it might set someone thinking.

Wasn't aware, good to know there's more options, ideally there'd be a lot of different options to keep this functionality in some obscurity

What you described is called gaslighting

"Kill my abusive boyfriend" sounds like a valuable service.

Many people are against capital punishment, even for abusive girlfriends/boyfriends.

Who said anything about The State doing the killing?

Usually, people are even more against private killings.

Maybe. There are plenty of reasonable philosophical positions from which one could conclude that private killings are preferable to public ones and that private killings are perfectly acceptable under the right circumstances.

Yes, but understanding how it operates and your target audience are distinct. Make it clear it is a "domestic abuse panic button". Put yourself in the user's shoes. It is still a "dead man's switch", but that's not what to call it to effectively market it.

Compelling app, I see where you’re coming from I know what a dead man switch is... but gowld is right it’s a terrible term to use. It conveys the wrong imagery for the just the wrong amount of time to cause the most cognitive dissonance when parsing ya’lls prose. To paraphrase the old adage that gets tossed around here, you are not your user.

It's memorable and could be a plausibly "cute" name for an actual hang man game. Still, it might set off alarms of the abuser who's already constantly on the lookout for emotional/physical defection by their victim.

I agree, too, the target audience might not know what a dead man switch is nor do you want them to think this is a last resort and literally only useful when they are dead. I'd market it as a "fail-safe switch" or "silent alarm." Maybe change the name to "Dead Spell Man" which sounds like something a non-English developer might call hang man and diffuses the "I want to kill my husband" kind of connotation.

Otherwise, the idea and intention of this app make it a really, really worthy thing to put out in the world.

Thanks for explaining. So basically - this app acts like a concealed/plausibly deniable dead-man's switch with the capability of contacting third parties who might be able to help if the phone is taken away/destroyed by the abuser. And the reason the action isn't taken immediately is that it can take some time to set up a proper "escape" - but if critical, this can be expedited.

That makes sense now. It's not immediately obvious to a newcomer.

People who are targets of abuse obviously have problem getting out of it. There are various reasons, most frequently they are financially or psychologically dependent on the abuser.

It is very frequently that person trying to help a victim is unable to convince the victim to leave the abuser.

Faced this situation, the next best step is to offer some kind of lifeline that can be triggered when things get bad. It is very important this is inconspicuous because it otherwise is very likely to trigger abusive behavior from their captor and if it is not inconspicuous it has very little chance of being actually used. Abused person that has no privacy is unlikely to call public number that can be tracked to their support person and may face being cut off from any communication.

It is not that important who is on the other side, the same way that is not important who hears shouts of captive person. What is important is there will be some help coming when it is needed the most.

Seems a nice option but as it happens with any other security-through-obscurity it made me wonder if the abuser reaction wouldn't be a bit harsh if it is discovered.

Wouldn't it be better if the functionality is not just hidden but also includes plausible deniability? Like creating one hidden screen that is accessed when you try to guess the word using just one specific setupable word, and showing another fake / useless screen when every other word is typed ?

For sure, but any app store listing would give that away so that kind of obscurity only gets you so far.

Apple are extremely restrictive on how you present your apps, so it will always be obvious what the app is from the listing (which is why I specifically had to use hang man, as the name of the app has to match the general functionality). I couldn't even release a separate app with the same functionality but completely reskinned as they classed it as spam. So I had a problem of only having 1 app and providing functionality to two different sets of users. One set only wants the dead man switch functionality and an initial screen that hides the app is useless to them, and the other set only wants the hidden functionality.

If they were less rigorous in applying their rules then a more secure app could be made and I'm always open to suggestions. This was actually made in conjunction with liasing with a US charity for domestic abuse as it was a feature they specifically asked for.

Perhaps a PWA or a side-loadable app on Android would avoid the need for an app store listing.

Yep, definitely a possibility for higher risk users in the future. The current listed app should cover off a large portion of use cases and making it simple to access is my highest priority. Side loading a more secure app for those few cases that absolutely need total peace of mind and security can round off the offering.

Can we start to accuse apple of being complacent in domestic abuse then? I'm only mostly joking

Apple products are used at a far higher proportion among women (and the vast majority of domestic abuse victims are women) than Android products are and the locked down nature of the platform means that attempts to fight this with innovative apps masquerading as other apps (as the author has indicated that they want to do) breaks their TOS and is banned by the platform.

Feminists need to start sounding the alarm right now and pushing women towards open platforms which give them a chance to fight against their abusers.

Maybe it's better to have an OS that prevents spyware apps. If the victim isn't in control of their phone, do you want the abuser to have free reign on it?

What people need is a hidden extra phone, not a hidden extra app.

If you care about women rights, you should also care about open source, here's why.

It might actually work to push the FOSS movement ahead.

What if the game itself was 100% vanilla and all the dead man’s switch setup was done through a website using your iCloud login? Then instead of the help button the user could configure a “safe word” that when entered triggers the notifications.

Also, doesn’t a true dead man’s switch require periodic confirmation? As in, shouldn’t it trigger _unless_ I enter my safe word as a guess every N days?

Edit: I just read the homepage, the linked page didn’t really explain the switch, just the dedicated help button in the menu, so disregard that part.

Using a safe word to unlock is brilliant. Why require iCloud or web access at all, though? Hide a configuration page behind the safe word as well. You could also have another secret word to instantly trigger your silent alarms.

Also, if the author wanted to keep the web site discreet, just have a landing page that talks about "This is the greatest hang man game of all time, blah , blah" and underneath have ads/badges for "Save the whales", "Feed the Starving Children" and "Prevent Domestic Abuse." When they click the abuse "ad", they get additional information that's actually about the app.

Maybe the words "dead man" in the name of a service about domestic abuse is not such a great idea :(

It's a well known technical term for us, but probably not so much for the general public, so this could be easily misinterpreted.

Anyone who's used a lawn mower should know what it is

I think anyone who's used a lawnmower knows the concept but not necessarily the name.

And most people aren't electric lawnmower users anyway.

All powered lawnmowers have these switches. Push types have the spring loaded lever on the handle that shuts the engine off when released, and riding mowers shut down when there isn't weight on the seat. This isn't exclusive to electric mowers at all.

Know the functionality, but how should you guess the term from operating a lawn mower?

i've used a lawn mower many many times and there is no part of it I would have called a "dead mans switch". I'm sure it's technically there, but knowing the name is hardly a requirement. Also, i'm certain there is not a 1:1 overlap between abuse victims and lawn mower users.

So obviously "Dead Man's Switch" is a smart lawnmower remote control app.

It's for warning when a person is no longer capable of operating the device for any reason, one being that you've died.

In the case where someone's worried for their life, isn't it exactly the correct severity for the situation?

As someone who was in an abusive relationship for decades, and my girlfriend is getting out of an even more abusive relationship, there really should be more resources for this. Or maybe there are and there just needs to be a better way to communicate with the people who need this sort of thing.

Yep, it wasn't until I was contacted by an owner of a charity that handled cases of domestic abuse that I even knew it was even needed. Initially this was a hobby project I did in my spare time for when I went travelling and it's grown from there.

More visibility is definitely key, and charities are already stretched so it's not like they have the resources to get this kind of thing done for them. I've been reaching out to various charities to open a channel of communication to let them know that this is available for them.

For what it's worth, I knew immediately what this was for but read your entire page looking for some kind of explicit confirmation and/or clear description of the use cases. The info given almost seems intentionally coy, as if you're even trying to maintain plausible deniability on the website.

That's the problem with marketing secret stuff. The stuff only works if no one else knows what it is, so how you spread awareness to thousands of intended recipients but not others, using a public website?

Maybe iOS and Android should have abuse prevention as well as suicide prevention resources built into the operating system and phone app, just like accessibility and health support and find-my-phone and emergency calling, so everybody has them, and having something like that isn't a red flag.

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/make-emergency-calls-...

> At first we tried to release a separate app to keep the target audience separate but it turned out to be against Apple's developer rules that two apps could not be released with the same functionality, so we had to compromise and include everything in one app and try to lower the risk for vulnerable users as much as possible

Or in a sane world talk to a human being who has the authority to understand that the rule is inappropriate in this case and allow you take the safer option.

How can something as important as this not get escalated inside Apple?

Yep, you wouldn't believe how many escalations and people I phoned and got nowhere. Even an email to Tim got me nowhere. After 3 months I decided that something was better than nothing.

This is a great cause, but it would probably be a good idea to explain somewhere on the website what exactly a dead man switch is and how it can be useful for domestic violence victims. The marketing seems a little too technical for the general public as it is.

Coming from a background in Law Enforcement (Australia) and dealing daily with Domestic Violence, this is a great idea.

Does need a polish (few bugs - can't delete switches / change reporting time?) and yes, potentially a 'cover story change' (build a simple period tracker for the female audience?)

I know there are a few private and government organisations over here trying to battle this problem, with the use of technology.

This would be a good addition to the options available.

I see variations on the concept of the OP in different forms like a codeword drink at a bar. Is there any evidence out there that they work?

It doesn’t sound like this is a dead man switch, sounds more like a panic button?

Did you read the beginning? This is an extension to an existing dead man switch app whose only purpose is to hide the fact that it's a dead man switch. The underlying app is indeed a dead man switch.

I read the text in the link, but I can’t figure what it is a dead mans switch _for_?

It seems the web service will automatically contact whoever you have set up to be contacted, if you don't take action on the notifications from the app

Aha ok I see. But then I don’t see how it could be two apps, what would the app without the game do?

It just requires you to take some action on a recurring basis. Someone who is not trying to hide that they have a deadman switch on their phone doesn't need a game, they just need a button they can push to indicate that they are still alive.

Ok I thought the hiding was the point, but maybe there’s a use case.

That seems to be correct. It triggers when you enter the online help function of the app.

If it were a dead man’s switch it would trigger if you failed to do so after a certain amount of time.

I've thought about building a dead man's switch product before, but I realized the immense commitment that such a product entails. It must continue to function for a very long time, and if it fails to function, very important messages would be lost. So, I hope you're in this for the long haul.

My problem with any "Dead man switch" is the fact that none of these services seem to survive.

Also, can you please write somewhere on the website what's your privacy policy? Is everything encrypted? if so, with what?

By it's nature this kind of service will hold very sensitive information.

The privacy policy can be found fixed to the bottom of the website on every page (next to the copyright notice).

As with any service you should assume that nothing is encrypted (even though it is) and follow other articles that I've written about how to securely maintain private information when using third party services.

So in short, the answer is "no".

I don't see why anybody would ever use your unsecure service or even pay for it.

The answer is no to which question? I'd appreciate some benefit of the doubt since you don't know anything about the service and you don't seem to have read any of the associated documentation.

https://www.deadmansswitch.net/ (my service) has been running for 13 years now. I guess what you mean by "survive", but that's a pretty long time.

Very timely.

> uncouplings surged in March as husbands and wives began emerging from weeks of government-mandated lockdowns intended to stop the spread of the novel coronavirus. Incidents of domestic violence also multiplied.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/divorces-...

Something physical would be interesting. Putting on the pink lipstick triggers the alarm. Because, of course, an abusive partner may take away the phone.

> Because, of course, an abusive partner may take away the phone.

That's the point of the app, isn't it? If you don't use the App for some amount of time, the alarm gets triggered.

Does this require a remote service to function, or is it stand-alone? If the former, what happens if that remote service goes down?

Yep, it runs on AWS servers due to the fact that the user's device might be destroyed and it has file hosting, automated calls and all that jazz happening which would not be possible if it was stand-alone.

In terms of redundancy and failover, barring a total region blackout on the AWS end, the remote service will continue to function forever due to the way I've set up the infrastructure. If I die then the service will simply be handed over to someone else.

I can't imagine trusting the mindset of a dev who builds a sensitive personal safety app for (mostly) women if they calls it "dead man tracker".

Sorry but this was not the original target audience, this is merely a requested feature direct from a domestic abuse charity that wanted to use the app for their victims.

Thank you for your concern though.

"We're sorry but dead man tracker doesn't work properly without JavaScript enabled. Please enable it to continue."

Yeah fine, but perhaps some explanation of what I would be seeing if I did that would be appreciated. If you want me to enable Javascript, you should at least tell me what you're going to do with that.

If you make a web site with functionality that requires Javascript, and there's no other way, that's fine. But you should still leave the bits that don't need Javascript up, so we can see what we are missing.

Good advice, I'll change that so it explains that I don't use any form of tracking. It's a shame most SPA sites abuse JS to the point that users feel the need to disable it by default.

I mean, this is a good example of a web site that I'm likely to be interested in seeing, but unlikely to need to use the functionality of. It's a great idea for web sites like this to make it look generally the same (if at all possible, or have an explanation of what it would look like), but not work (with a brief message about why) when Javascript is turned off.

I think that's possibly more important than claiming that you won't do any tracking. You sound like a trustworthy person, I'm sure, but of course the less reputable web sites could well claim they don't do any tracking, but then do tracking.

The first paragraph is a way to say "This is what you get when you switch Javascript on", and the second is "This is what you don't get when you switch Javascript on". Different messages. The first is verifiable useful information. The second is harder to verify.

And yes, I agree it is tragic that the world has reached this point.

mnw21cam: you're not representative of most users.

In fact, I've never seen a "Javascript apology" on any website.

This isn’t mine, but the number of my users with js turned off isn’t worth the effort. You guys make a lot of noise, but not a lot of traffic.

This. Without JS the base expectation should be a blank page. Not even an error message.

That's a bizarrely vindictive attitude.

I’m not saying it should be that way on purpose, I’m saying that’s what you can expect. No one tests for people using terminal browsers or IE4. Noscript users are in the same niche. I understand why you’d disable JavaScript but I don’t understand how people expect those who make web apps to cater for that.

"Expect" is a word that has different meanings depending on the context: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expect

> To predict or believe that something will happen

In this sense, I do not expect most websites to work without javascript.

> To consider obligatory or required.

In this sense, I do expect most websites to work without javascript. At the very least, for accessibility reasons.

You can expect all you want, I expect you’ll be disappointed. The goal to keep the web in that languid state is of the same ilk of the buggy whip. It’ll have archaic use cases, but the numbers won’t make sense for a lot of if not most future endeavours.

Opine all you like, it won't stop us from raising a stink about inaccessible websites.

Inaccessible sites as in doesn’t work with screen readers and similar? You can make websites using js and still conform to accessibility standards (wcag etc). Just like you can make inaccessible websites without js.

Your analytics are probably blocked by anyone who has JS off so your traffic numbers are skewed.

They aren’t.

How would you know?

I own the hardware.

This is not only about people who disable js, but also about people with disabilities who would benefit from accessibility features on your app. With this arguement, we should also ignore them, since they might not be the ones making the most traffic i.e. revenue for us. There is also the increasing number of users who disable trackes out of privacy concerns. At lease most of the marketing guys I've seen still assume what trackers show is all there is.

Accessibility isn’t being discussed here. All my sites are accessible, don’t conflate the two.

This sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Who's going to generate a lot of traffic interacting with a blank page?

No, you luddite, no one uses the internet anymore without Javascript.

But plenty of people use NoScript[1,2] and similar configurable blockers

When you open a new website, only the previously whitelisted JS sources are enabled, and you can individually check out the initially disabled sites to see if you want to trust it to run on your machine.

So, yes, having some default information about the code required to view the basic site would definitely be helpful, and help build trust.

[1] https://github.com/hackademix/noscript [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoScript#ClearClick_(anti-clic...

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