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Comment by whatever1 | Hacker News Reader

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else’s dreams.

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That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life.

I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yourself care about the work you're doing and the individuals you're working with. That way, if you do end up leaving when you don't want to, you have accomplishments and a network of people who know what you're capable of. And up until then, you can take pride in what you're doing and feel good about how you're treating the people you're doing it with.

That's true if you live in work-obsessed culture that believes desk time is a more important metric than productivity.

> for a company that you don’t own

I think you're missing the key part here. Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit. But if you don't have a stake in the company you are literally trading time for money. Work more time for the same money and you're just under-pricing your labor by an equivalent amount.

Also, if you need to work overtime to get good recommendations and promotions that is not a company you want to spend your time at.

Also also, if you need to work overtime to care about the work you're doing then you should re-examine your value system.

> Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit.

Maybe nitpicking, but I don't think this is true at all. Lots of tech workers do, sure, but I doubt it's anywhere even close to half of them.

I wouldn't even consider common stock options as a form of ownership. You are basically last in line to get any sort of compensation after an exit.

Where did I say anything about working overtime? Here's the key quote from the post I was replying to:

"Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family."

It's possible to opt out of the bullshit conspicuous overwork that a lot of people engage in (although you should be prepared to face consequences for that!), and still do more than the bare minimum during the 40 hours you show up to work. And it may be better _for you_ to do so.

That's a bit sad (an quite prevalent in some industries) viewpoint. Maybe it comes to what makes you feel satisfied with yourself and happy - if its only work, then yes above is true. But those actually having the type of work worth such a sacrifice are miniscule, I guess 1-5% of HN readers.

What about achieving happiness and self-fulfillment from other things than work? I couldn't care less about my (well paid & successful) corporate job, because after it ends, I put on harness and helmet and go climbing. Or on the weekends hiking, skiing, ski touring, paragliding, diving, and so on. Traveling around the world for vacations. I have a great wife, I have a tiny little son I love very much. Those are properly fulfilling things in life, very well worth investing one's time and energy. Plenty comes back, and even if not, its a great thing to do nevertheless.

At work, there are plenty of folks with mindset you describe. Investing themselves into corporate careers, thinking money, talking money. Most I know have pretty sad lives.

Why are their values less important than yours? Isn't it just as easy to look at what you consider this rich, fulfilling life and say "poor sucker is totally a slave to our social media culture; desperate to show us how wordly and alternative they are. Why can't they just be happy with the little things in life?"

A lot easier to find joy in your work these days vs. activities and vacations too...

I see what you mean. I think the dying moment or few years before it are a good judge whether one lived a good life that one can be proud of. I struggle to see how corporate career is something that would get one there. This is purely my viewpoint of course, I have only my mindset and values. But its clear to me personally what I want in life and care about. That traveling (long term backpacking in India and other places) also gave me pretty good knowledge of myself.

As they say, 'whatever makes you happy'. Just consider long term happiness, and not only momentary kick.

"just coasting through life"

Someone could be extremely active outside of work - its not just work that counts.

Edit: Even in the software world - what about all of the people who create stuff outside of formal "work"?

being loyal to any organization which has an HR division is a recipe for depression. don't do that.

You are worth more than your job title. You get paid for a job. Value yourself first and foremost.

If all you want is to get ahead delegating, communicating, and politicking are what matter -- and they can be done well in 40 hours or fewer.

HTTP 402. Payme.

Over time I've come to disagree with this sentiment.

If you're a software engineer you should consider yourself a craftsman. Treating your job as a "shift" means you don't care about your craft.

The reason I'm not a founder today is that I've observed that founders don't have well rounded lives. I want 5 workdays a week to consist of 8-9 hours of work I'm invested in and care about, 8-9 hours of personal life (relationships, socializing, working out, reading, personal projects, hobbies, TV and games, etc.) and the rest in sleep. I want two days a week off.

So what, I have to give up doing work I care about because of it? I don't think so. I choose work I think is important, technically deep and challenging, and if droppings hit the fan and I get laid off - I can be proud of what I did and understand that the pain is real and that it will pass.

Better to have loved and lost.

You’ve never lost and loved something too much yet. This can be very bad advice for many people.

Why would you assume that?

better to have loved something that's not making someone else more money than what they think your work is worth.

What is the risk here?

A person who pursues their here and now with the most intention and passion will learn more on the job than the same individual who is just "putting their time in." Why can't you help build someone elses dream and your own? Is it possible the details of someone elses dream provide focus for yours?

I think the former individual will better weather a layoff than the latter. Furthermore, the person who is "just putting their time in" is a less attractive hire.

I think you can look at this from a mercenary perspective too. It costs nothing more to show up and work hard than it does to show up and do the minimum. You're giving up the same amount of time either way. But there's a lot more upside for hard workers, at least at firms that have a career track for software engineers. There are other variables, but other things being equal, folks who get things done tend to advance faster.

I definitely agree that you should not break your back and work 24/7 for someone else's vision. Or at a minimum you need to consider how factors beyond your control might zero out your investment. But that goes for anything.

Never in the history of the humanity was hard work rewarded the same as speaking and looking nicely.

Sure. Better to be beautiful and honey tongued than ugly and an asshole. But either way you're better off working hard than being lazy.

I was intern in 2008 and working very hard. Doing not only mandatory things, but also taking care of lab equipment and helping neighbor labs. Very loyal, no distractions, sitting in the lab until late and working probably 1,5x or even 2x more hours I was paid for.

And then boom! My manager came and told, they must throw away all the interns to save the costs. Throw away me and the other intern who worked in kitchen with coffee mug and was never in the lab. I felt really stupid. Since then I do my 40 hours what I get paid for. No more, no loyalty, no team spirit for the rest of my life. I was doing 200% in last 12 years only for startups as a co-founder, not that ability work hard disappeared completely.

I can understand you working 100% and no more. And I can live with it if I was your manage.r But no loyalty, no team spirit? No way. For me it is a two way road. I give you flexibility to work remote some days, to arrive at 10 some days, to leave earlier others, but in exchange I expect that you some days will work more hours, arrive earlier or leave latter, and maybe work some weekends. It should be a balance.

Then good luck identifying that in your interview. :) OP probably won't brag about it and instead try to come off as a normal employee.

No remote before pandemic offered, 8:30-15:00 must sit in the office. Constant micromanagement. How to save €200k with cheaper hardware proposition rejected, integration test design forbidden, IDE migration middle in the project despite my protest started. My current place does not offer any balance. Edit: if I can solve my own errors on weekend I’ll do it for sure! But I am not liable for management fails.

Why would you fix errors on weekends? (except for critical stuff, and then take off a weekday instead, of course).

Errors are a normal thing for human work, especially software developer. Nothing you are "guilty of" and have to make right with your own money/time (same thing).

I was twice on weekend in the office in last 3 years: one time due to legendary IDE migration in the middle of project. It wasted 7 months in total. Any the other time I wanted to finish my release on time. Of course, it was postponed on Monday. Both times it was wasted personal time, zero gain.

What have you points to do with what OP said?

Homeoffice, flex time? That's all things that benefit the company just as much.

No relations to working only the hours they are getting paid for.

But that's the trick. You are presenting unrelated things as if they had to do more than agreed upon just to get those. Pretty cheap attempt to guild tripping.

“Team spirit or no way!” is how you end up with layoffs.

A team/company’s culture is WAY more than your own personal work ethic. Some people won’t think how you do. And that’s fine and should be encouraged!

>It should be a balance.

the situation you describe is not a "balance". it's whatever the employer desires. you've all but guaranteed low morale. when you demand loyalty and team spirit on top of that, it justifies cynicism.

in such a situation, you should expect people to do the bare minimum.

Because of managers like you I get all of these things nicely into the contract so no one can say to me that they 'give me something like flexibility'.

What you wrote doesn't have even 0.1% of balance you speak of.

It’s just business. You’re selling time and effort for money. No need to make employment more than the simple transaction it is. Approaching it this way also makes it relatively straightforward to set and enforce work/life boundaries as an employee.

Enjoy your time with your family. :)

Except developers who are intelligent, creative, optimistic and want to get better will not accept those who just do the "bare minimum" with the mentality of "just do you shift then go home". They will build a culture that demands more and effectively pushes these voluntary baseline performers out, or more likely leave the organization and go somewhere better.

I don't want to be part of things that are average and marginally accepable, and I have a profound dislike of the status quo. It doesn't matter if it's work or shooting hoops with my kids or seeing how long I can stand on one foot - a desire to do a job well and have fun doing it are not mutually exclusive. I'm confident my attitude and approach are not unique to only me.

You can do both: Do you job well, take pride in your work, and go home at the end of the day.

So much of your employment relies on things that are outside of your control. Even when you have a great job that you love, it won't last forever. Your job isn't a marriage, or a parent-child relationship. At the end of the day, it's just a job.

Absolutely, in times like this, you could expect some solidarity to the people, sector, and society this VC is working with. A rich successful VC would better allocate a fund to support employees for a few months until easier landing is possible. This is much more helpful and fair - instead of blogging how they feel empathy but pushing for layoffs nevertheless

Financial capital isn't the only thing you can accumulate at a job. Building your social capital by being the person everyone wants to work with again and building intellectual capital by developing expertise are both things you can and should also invest in.

This is the wrong conclusion. I for one love working for my employer. I made peace with the idea that I may be subject to a layoff at some point in my career. The flip side of the coin is that I feel free to look for opportunities any time I want. My employer treats me well, I return the favor. When it's uneconomical for them to keep paying me, they'll do that, when I find a better option, I'll go too, and there's no hard feelings. For as long as the employment continues, I feel proud to do my best, and not just do the absolute minimum.

This becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy. A manager can easy see which employees don't really care about the quality of their work.

It should be no surprise that they are the first to be laid off when times get tough.

At the end of the week, you get paid, and you and the company are even.

That sounds logical until you actually tried it. Jobs that you don't care about are getting an order of magnitude more consuming that all these extra hours or attention you put in in jobs you care.

My approach is to demand being properly compensated and appreciated for all the extra attention I put on. Unfortunately, that's also not easy.

If you are only doing a job for the financial payoff, then I guess. If you are interested in the work and want to develop yourself, the Wally mindset is a horrible way to spend your time.

> If you are only doing a job for the financial payoff, then I guess.

That's why it is a job, not a hobby.

You spend way too much time at your job not to enjoy it.

You would find that the more money you make, the more you are going to enjoy your job.

Not everyone is like that, but to each their own.

You can lose everything as an owner too. It'll be on you though and not your boss — up to to you to decide what's better.

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