For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity | Hacker News Reader

For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity

theguardian.com

221 pointsjrwan173 comments

Where I am, the second paragraph of the executive order establishing the "lockdown" explicitly states that victims of domestic violence are exempt and are urged to leave for a safer location. It makes clear further in the order that services provided are considered essential and should remain open and that transportation is also essential and should remain available.

The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean.

People that had a daily respite because their spouse left for work, or (as the article mentions) the stress of the situation is causing alcoholism and relapses into violence are people that need help and that the system in place most likely doesn't have the capacity to handle. This is where additional resources need to be made available.

My wife works with domestic violence victims. It's extraordinarily difficult to get victims of domestic violence to leave their abusers even in the best of times. There's also not a lot of shelters available for women to stay in for long periods of time.

You are absolutely right. It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the current situation makes it far more challenging.

But knowing that you are not legally required to stay has to be an improvement.

It is good to have that exception. Here in Portland, Oregon they are saying that the main issue is that finding long term housing, normally in short supply here, is now almost impossible.

Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation?

A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere

B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out."

I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.

"If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out."

Funny how those are almost the exact words that parents of my girlfriend used in an attempt to make her stay. She was terrified of spending an extended period of time at home with her father who normally works abroad and visits only for holidays.

Given that lifting quarantines seems infeasible, what do you suppose should be done instead? Same message, just communicated better?

When trying to protect people (or, more accurately, trying not to hurt people) in low-information or high-stress situations (both very common for abusive situations), you can't throw something that essential into the second paragraph of a document that few outside of pundits will ever read.

The goal would be for the exception to be noticeable-enough that it ended up in most headlines. How to achieve that is an interesting thing to think about, but it's what should have been done.

Realistically, people who stay in abusive relationships were already stuck. The problem wasn’t cause by the lockdown. Only compounded.

Changing the presentation of a document won’t change this.

What would, is a society that doesn’t tolerate the problem, and provides material support for the abused.

We are a long way from that.

Someone who cannot leave a relationship in which abuse did not just take place once, but repeated (hence "abusive"); when what should society do that it should not already be doing to everyone?

* ensure you have food and shelter

* ensure reasonably safe

* ensure that children are admitted to some school

* ensure you dont sink into deep poverty

When a society cannot help on these points, what use is requesting these for the small sub category of marginalized that are so because of an abusive relationship, that they themselves are usually to some extend are continued to be pulled back into?

You are right.

There is no use requesting these things for a small group of marginalized people.

Until society provides them for everyone, it cannot tackle the problem of abuse.

Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad state of affairs is many abused people are gaslighted and brainwashed so they stay with the abuser. These forms of coercive mental conditioning can last a lifetime.

It happened to a close friend of mine’s sister. She ended up joining a bizarre religious cult where the leader would find young people and brainwash them into staying with the cult. I attended one of these gatherings and they attempted to recruit me as well. They’d send multiple young women over wearing very revealing clothing, extolling how great the cult was, how great the leader was, etc. But these types of mind control schemes don’t work me.

> Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad

Please enlighten me. Given for instance the enormeous amount, 6.4 trillion, is spend by the US on wars the last 20 year. That's about 888 million per day, everyday over the last 20 year. And who benefitted? You tell me.

Now lets divide that by the number of americans, it comes down to 80,000 dollars per month per american. That could have been awarded as a social program to increase the happiness of peolpe, or that needs to be paid by those same people in either taxes or inflation (or printing money, aka quantative easing, as bankers refer to it).

Now you compare that --in my view rather utopian view-- to domestica violence, and conclude that DV is worse! Dude, you may have some hatred to anything socialist, but this is next level.

I know a good one. I take the 80k/month, you the abuse. Pfff...

> Please enlighten me. Given for instance the enormeous amount, 6.4 trillion, is spend by the US on wars the last 20 year. That's about 888 million per day, everyday over the last 20 year. And who benefitted? You tell me.

The Great Leap Forward killed millions of people. Same in Cambodia. It was based on an ideology that the government will provide everything for you. But your loyalty will determine if you live or die. Even in the case when one was loyal, death could still happen in these brutal regimes.

I agree with you in spirit that we shouldn’t be spending anything on war. Non-interventionism was when America prospered the most. If you just let the free market work and don’t get involved in costly wars, people become productive and there are plenty of jobs.

Your narrow view that those in authority will reward you for loyalty will change one day. Trust me. I just hope on that day, you are willing to do what is necessary when nobody in power will defend you.

Which (developed Western) society tolerates the problem?

The core crux of the problem is literally that the society can't really do anything - the victim has to leave, out of their own volition, and that rarely happens (people who leave quickly aren't the problem, they don't get stuck in abusive situations in the first place).

I mean maybe this was a problem 30 years ago, but I've been bombarded with images, ads, information about abuse and victim shelters etc. my whole life, so it seems to me that society is pretty much doing the most it can.

Edit: seems to have hit a sore spot... look, I'm just annoyed everytime someone says "society tolerates slavery/trafficking/homelessness/poverty/rape/cancer/child abuse/organised crime/violence/..." - just because we haven't come up with a perfect solution to the problem (usually because the problem isn't as simple as some people imagine) doesn't mean that the society tolerates the problem...

Sure the victim has to leave.

But do you know what happens when they do?

Obviously, shelters have to be advertised because otherwise people wouldn’t know about them.

But it’s pretty obvious that the presence of ads for shelters says nothing about whether society is actually providing a way out for the abused.

If an abuser says B and the abused knows about A why wouldn’t they just throw that in their face and then leave? If you know your rights you’ll have the confidence to act.

If you're in an abusive relationship, there's likely complex factors preventing the abused from throwing that paragraph in their abuser's face and leaving.

Victims of abuse have typically been trapped financially, emotionally, and physically long before the lockdown occurred. Abusers have many ways of keeping their victims from “asserting their rights”.

is this a realistic hypothetical? most people in abusive situations either don't have another place to go in the first place, or the abuser has leverage (eg, a child) to keep them in that home. wouldn't the threat of calling the cops be only a marginal source of leverage?

Anything can be source of leverage. Doesn’t need to make sense.

The only leverage you need is the “emotional upper ground”, if you will. Just the fact that you’re on the receiving end of a threat matters more than how realistic the threat is, especially in a pre-existing abusiva relationship.

A core part of many abusive relationships is the message "No one else cares about you, no one loves you, I'm the only one who will help you". The abuser will socially isolate the victim, cutting off friendships & family. What friends & family remain, the abuser will work to discredit or estrange, all the while telling the victim the abuser is the only person they can rely on.

I think you are imagining abuse victims as fully rational actors straining to break free, if only they had somewhere to go or full custody of their child. But a long time victim of this kind of abuse has been taught they are helpless, worthless, and alone. The only thing more frightening than staying, is leaving.

In an abusive relationship.

If I try and leave she threatens to call the cops.

Uses every emotional trick to make it clear I have no wear to go.

Lots of other emotional abuse.

Next day she’s bright as can be. Confused as to why any of it bothers me.

Kids are very much only reason staying.

Took many years to break free of mental chains.

Kids almost old enough to see through BS.

Stay strong. I stayed for the same reasons but she wanted to end it. I'm in a better place, but I'm terrified for my children and nobody that can do anything about it believes any of it.

Don't expect your kids to see through it - it's normal for them. Sorry, but that's my experience.

Thanks!

I gave up on that awhile ago.

Was shocking to see her start crap with everyone plain as day. Then all kids against me because she is mom.

Never mind we we all happy and having fun until she arrived.

I spent a year pushing back hard on it. She’s reluctant to start crap these days.

I still don’t like her. But it’s better.

is this a realistic hypothetical?

Extremely reasonable.

Abused people get into a mindset where the abuser is an authority. The authority knows things you do not, and will be believed by others. And the cost of testing this authority will be..horrendous.

The more confidence that the abuser displays that the rest of the world will be on his side, the more that this message is strengthened. It doesn't matter whether it is true, it matters whether it is believed. "Nobody will believe that you're an abuse victim. They will just hand you back to me."

The real chain holding the victim in place is in the victim's mind. And abusers strengthen that chain early and often. :-(

An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

They are nit taken that seriously absent visible injuries. And statistically cops are more likely to be domestic abusers then general population.

Yep, 40% vs 25%:

https://kutv.com/news/local/40-of-police-officer-families-ex...

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-viole...

Police officer training to be "dominant" and "be in control of all aspects of the situation" can easily intimidate family members too...

Source: Friend of mine is a cop. Since he went through the ~2 year training program, he's become unpleasant to anyone he's in a private space with. Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it.

> Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it.

Good grief. That doesn't exactly sound like friendship.

How the heck do cops get along with each-other in a stressful situation, if their training leads them to all feel the need to individually be in control of the same situation?

Domestic abuse can be psychological, too.

Domestic abuse is always psychological, though it often is also physical.

Sure. The point being that if it is not physical, it is often not taken seriously.

> An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

Police not taking it seriously (in part, because it's viewed as wasted time because the accuser will so often recant even when the accusation is true) is an enduring problem with domestic violence, and police are very well trained to enforce well-defined public orders like curfews (which shelter in place orders are just a variety of) even if they aren't specifically trained for pandemics.

There is a difference between taking seriously in the sense of "I am reporting a crime, please actually investigate it" (which, yes, often doesn't cause a crime to be investigated) and "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being held hostage in my own home; please send a police escort to rescue me from my house; and then, optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I may be safe for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

The police are very well-trained to respond to the latter request. They might not have the capacity for protective custody (some do, some don't), but they'll at least do the "ensure you are escorted safely away from your home" part 100% of the time. They'll usually be willing to take you to a relative's home, if they live nearby; or, if not, to an emergency shelter for victims of domestic violence, if your city has one. You'll usually be asked to file a police report; you'll be given a case number, and the contact information of someone in the police department you can reach out to if your abuser is stalking you. It's sort of a "pre-restraining order"—the police can't legally stop the other person from being where you are, but they'll usually be willing to come and intercede if your abuser just shows up near you in public and tries to intimidate you. (This helps the police as well on what is now your open case, because they'll be witness to whatever happens between you and your abuser.)

> "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being held hostage in my own home; please send a police escort to rescue me from my house; and then, optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I may be safe for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

These magic words likely will elicit the correct response from law enforcement. But being able to formulate this phrase implies awareness on the part of the victim that they are being abused, that something can be done about it, and that they have the courage to do what it takes to escape. The truth is that many victims are manipulated into believing there's no way out. Even the ones who do pull the trigger experience a lot of pain upfront that only becomes worth it later - they are still emotionally attached to their abusers.

We should absolutely educate people as to the usefulness of police in abusive scenarios (an abuser would have the victim think they are helpless), but getting victims to recognize and say the magic words is more than half the battle.

Nope. There are many kinds of domestic abuse, most of them leave no proof whatsoever. I'm a very large guy, and if I had tried to say that nobody would have possibly believed me. No matter how true and horrible it was.

But by that logic, all laws by their existence and enforcement enables abusers. Even laws against abuse. Enforce the law against an abuser and send them to jail? Another abuser will use that to scare a victim of the same gender as the abuser jailed.

> The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean.

The news media have no incentive to rationally analyse facts and put them in perspective. They need panic and confusion so we continue to click on their substance-less articles and videos.

In times of confusion like this, go directly to the official sources (WHO, ministry of health, NHS etc) and skip the "journalists" altogether, this will have a significant positive impact on your mental health.

Stay safe everyone

I believe the WHO also presenting in ways to promote panic.

For instance the quote "Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected." [1]

These two number are are total false comparison. Now they may do this for good purposes: a little fear helps people take it serious and thus follow suit. But this I believe it is VERY intellectually dishonest and has me even question their narrative at this point. (No COVID19 denier here, just want to know what the chances of survival and inconveniences are for me + loved ones + world population at large)

3.4% = corona deaths / total cases tested positive

>1% = flu deaths / estimated total infected

Now these terms contain a lot of grey area but this is true, I did the peer review and made calcs to support what I say here: WHO presents apple-orange data. That's either by accident (I hope not, cuz statistics should be their game), or more likely to make it look more severe (again this could be with good intentions).

Another thing to consider is that the "total cases tested positive" likely have a serious selection bias. Sick folk is tested at the moment. Where a population research should test a random sample.

I'm just trying to make sense of this whole thing like all of us, but the WHO has put me off as a reputable source of info. Less shitty than the MSM journalists, sure, but not good either.

1: https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-...

> The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean.

If you only read the headlines or listen to tweets that butcher what exactly is being talked about. The stories generally go into further detail and provide links to further information if you want to dig into the details.

People keep talking about how bad the "news media" is doing, and yet, if you actually read the stories instead of just reading the headlines and pull quotes, they are doing a fairly good job.

If you do a simple search, you will see that far from doing bad job, this is getting a lot of attention by "news media" around the world.

People whine about the "media" and yet, I can't help but think that they are only looking at headlines and that's it. Here you have an article from the "news media" and it's not even their first article on this specific topic!

> If you only read the headlines or listen to tweets that butcher what exactly is being talked about.

I'm amazed at how many people do that, even when the headline ends in a question.

We might also take some delicate thoughts that the absence of a lockdown does not imply the absence of captivity. An abuser can leave for a workday, or weeks at a time, and still have a captive.

But I very much understand the spirit here and now I am feeling sad thinking about all those people out there that are possibly suffering even more right now. I can hope that some of them find the strength to walk away after experiencing this, but I know fully well that this isn't how it works.

It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street.

And for all those other houses down the street that look happy, they could be hiding the biggest captives of all.

What a heavy topic to unwind.

Don't be disheartened. Do your bit and don't give up hope, every small step counts. No one alone is strong enough to take on the weight of the world and all its miseries.

>It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street.

That's because it's way easier to think about fixing the world in a theoretical way than it is to start making small realistic changes that gradually turn into something bigger. As someone fighting domestic abuse outside of the system, this work can get very messy but over time you develop your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. It is possible to make real progress and actually stop abusers.

I'm Stuck in a flat above heroin/crack abusers, they have dealers in all the time, abuse the victim card and keep getting away with it. Police, council.... all just victimhood them and dispite over years and years of having hard evidence, they just ignore it.

Equally the partner of the women had a business, working and she got him hooked on the stuff, she's abusive, killing him and nobody over the years seems to care as she is for want of a better word - classic dark triad case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

I've suffered abuse, homophobic abuse and as I'm not gay, it has been ignored. Even malicious gossip about me being a peado, again all ignored by the powers that be and I've done all the right things, tried so many times and been ignored.

Since lockdown they have guests all the time, dealers, really nasty people and yet, i'm still ignored.

Housing association in question even gone out their way to protect them and she has driven so many people out of their homes due to her abuse and still is allowed to get away with it as she excels at playing the victim, lies and I could list endless examples, it just frustrates me how these people keep on being allowed to carry on.

So yes, very mindful of abuse, sadly the system seems to excel at enabling them.

Oh as for police, even had instances of them not only doing nothing, but informing the dealers who informed upon them. Like passing on statements to her so she can show the dealers she didn't inform upon them and with that, lets them back in to the detrement of those who stood up.

So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support.

I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have recordings and other proofs as the police have failed me so many times that I've lost faith in them completly. As I have all support systems.

I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there.

Sorry if this not best place to talk about this, but I've tried and tried all the right avenues and only to be failed.

Also sorry that I can't bestow all the details as it is so painful and triggers my PTSD but I'll try.

You need to get the hell out of there. It can't be good for your mental health

Tried, even have psychiatric report stating as much and yet those who are supposed to help have failed me. Tried everything and nothing.

But it's not just me, I have some good neibours who are less able to defend themselves and even if I moved, somebod else would suffer, let alone my good neibours and if I move, they would get worse downstairs.

Only way is to see justice done and then move, though believe me I've tried, been messed around, and I'd articulate the horrors and failings but only so much can empart at a time as it causes me great stress reliving it.

I'm already a lost cause, I just need to make sure others don't suffer, that's the only thing that keeps me alive.

Dude just move.

I can't, tried believe me, sorry would expand upon the manitia but it just gets too much and now a shaking wreck and have to lay down as I have hypertension and sorry. I'll try and be back soon to reply and expand but it's just so painful and it's killing me. I'm sorry.

So let's sum it up - its killing you, but you don't want to/can't leave because its killing others too. At the end, you will help nobody, the least yourself, and everybody will just suffer.

Try pure logic on this problem, which doesn't seem like your current approach. Pure logic with result being improvement of your wellbeing, so you can help others. If you simply can't get those people out, then stop dreaming about getting them out, fruitlessly; solution is in some other action.

If your country is in proper lockdown/quarantine, suck it up and focus on something positive till things ease a bit. I know, easy to say, but working solutions aren't magically easy.

“Pure logic”? Is this a joke?

OK I suggested an actionable approach for a properly desperate person, what kind of advice do you have for him apart from downvoting me?

I've tried, please read other reply for details. I've focused on positive things but hard to escape reality when you have noisy neibours who live a vampire lifestyle and a flat with the acoustics that I can hear a lightswitch downstairs turned on or off, let alone a raving crackhead.

I set up a audio surveillance system with contact mics I built, though took year to afford the parts and then not ideal, but budget so tight I have to buy reduced food items to scrape by. Yet even with that, and case of playing blatant issues to housing and police - they do nothing, hence only way I will get the gravatas this needed is to go public and for that I need help as I'm unable to do this without breaking down and reliving all the bad moments - bad side effect of a good memory and if anything, makes it worse.

But focusing only works so far - don't change anything and with everything else health wise, I don't have many good days and when I do, only able to do short bursts before fatigue kicks in or nerve damage pain, let alone the PTSD which can be triggered so easily that i'm totally unable to move forward and all attempts to do that have sadly been detrimental that they have only compounded the issue further.

That's not possible for many people. Moving is expensive.

The parent commenter doesn't say it, but it seems strongly implied that they live in public housing. In most jurisdictions, residents don't have the option of moving to another unit without approval. In principle no one is stopping them from moving into market-rate private housing, but unless they happen to have the income to cover the differential in housing costs, it's not actually an option.

That is so, was working, company sent me other side of the world, messed up expenses and cruz was they failed to pay me and my rent and everything bounced whilst I was stuck in another TZ, boss epicly shafted me and in short, had breakdown and lost everything.

Options to move are swap which entails swapping with somebody else who wants to move and the whole process fraught with hassel and could end up swapping with somebody doing same thing.

Local council have an unofficial policey of allocating some flats to certaint types and with that, almost case of each social housing block has a designated junkie. It's a liberal council and has been for decades and well, yeah.

Housing association utterly terrible and if you look up Metropolitian Housing Association you will see that this is a common issue with many residents of their and all they care about is...well, if you look at their twitter feed you will see what they are like, google review has them at 1* and many instances of comparable people in same situations.

Council, utter joke and don't get me started on how bad they are in this situation.

Support useless and anybody who has been good has been powerless to help and those who can help been beyond useless, again it is a joke.

I have some serious health issues as well and the crux is, I'm unable to progress anything forward and those who were supposed to help, been beyond useless and again, trust me, it's bad.

I wished I could articulate everything in detail so people would grasp how bad it is and all that I have tried, but it would be a inch long book and take me so long to write it, well, I'm not going to live that long anyhow. AS said, trying to deal with this kicks of PTSD from all past experiences and in short, I need help and never gotten the support I needed, plenty of lip service and the like and false promises and yet, here I still am and nothing changed.

Work wise, I burned out so many times over the decades, in many situations had my good nature abused and things like burning 80+ hours a week for no overtime only to be shafted and the like very common.

No, just get out if you can. Put every bit of energy you have left to that goal.

Tried failed, tried failed.....it's case of I try, I get failed and withdraw to recover, rinse repeat that life is just not worth it, along with health etc the only thing keeping me going is to see justice once and for all.

Heck I even wrote to my government offering to be a human lab rat in the aid of finding solution to coronavirus, least that would be a honourable death, that desperate.

Hmm, lets see.

You could go the opposite way. Advertise for them everywhere. Put up signs for cheap stuff in other turfs. Let the free market work.

Now is the problem the people below or where you live? Getting rid of thek might bring someone worse. Sounds like you have grown out of the area.

Putting up signs is not so simple with CCTV everywhere.

Was thinking in bathrooms vs polls.. less large signs but more scratching something out with a key. In places where people use the bathroom to shootup (targeted advertising works better with a better roi)

Makeup of housing in the UK somewhat different to your vision alas.

Don't get me wrong, I've done things and had some success.

Was entire ground floor of the 6 flats all junkies, one I managed to re-educate, another I socially engineered away.

2 corrupt coppers removed.

4 Gangs removed

Numerous habitual junkies - removed from area.

2 gangs removed from area via blackmail.

Probably missing few.

But I've not been idle and had some positive results, albeit using craft tricks, so bit grey legally but morally just.

However the real issue does seem to be a police informer, did have some limited success last year, managed to socially engineer two gangs and with that, they ended up taking each other out and also saw the downstairs issue beaten up. That managed to give me a break but they always get back to the same old same and with that, the only way is to out them and the police handler for the shite they have caused.

But for closure - I need them and the police handler publicly outed in a way that they can't cover and with that, need publicity to deal with them and in a way that sends a message to the police so they don't do it again.

So yeah, messy, but need to end-game this for my own health and see it thru for closure and for my health overall.

Hence, best solution would be a reporter I can trust and is respectable to traction this. That simple.

Not an issue as I know all the CCTV and how to locate them easily enough as well as able to take them out. However there are other junkies in area and they all work together with the CCTV controlled by them, which they use to monitor police etc and stay ahead of them. I jest you not, it's shocking.

You know what, I cna garantee if I did that, I would be the one arrested and in jail and they would get away with it, making out it was me.

For example, had issue few years back for noise, they came out attacked me, then called police and made out I attacked them. They have also made many false reports to the polcie and they quickly come out to them. Yet if I report them, even case of when they had guns and kelos in the place - they ignored me and only came out when I said I'd kill myself if they don't do anything, too which they still did nothing about them and even talking to the officers, they were aware of what they are like and yet stil did nothing and all i got was platitude. It really is most shocking.

I said I would setup a recording system that would record their activities and I one of the officers said we would love that, yet even after doing that with many recordings, none of them care and I've even played recordings to police and what did they do. Yes, told the local officers who in turn told the dealers and you can guess how that worked out.

I even have email proof of officer admitting they `accidently` put a note thru their door with my details, I kid you not and what did they do - well they said sorry and if I had a penny for every sorry I've had over the years, I'd be very rich.

It really is beyond belief and the police today in the UK and frankly not police but social workers who care more about being seen to do their job over it and any good officers been driven out the force and that's not just my opinion, it's a large proportion of many ex officers.

Look at the replies from ex-officer in this tweet: https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1243493123155689472

it's just not even the icing on the cake.

Sorry I need to step away form this now for my own health and will be back later once I stop shaking.

The dealers might be police confidents.

Yes, they kinda are, they use the police to take out competition and with that, I'm so screwed that it is beyond a joke.

Welcome to our brave new world.

Why are you reporting things under your name? You don't want to get involved.

Calling the cops and telling them they have guns and kilos won't help because how would you know (in their minds) and why would they believe someone about ownership (they start looking at you). Any offers to setup your own operation makes it seem like you have something against the couple. Now you are the suspect.

Never threaten to kill yourself to get the cops attention because it will be focused on you not on why you are threatening to kill yourself.

Why do you continue to live there for years?

Please see other comments, but I have an inability to lie, I can do white-lies but that's it, just against my morals.

I threatened as it was true and I'm that desperate and I know that if I do that at least there would be some form of inquiry and sadly, that seems to be my best hope having tried all the right things.

I have many solutions that are wrong things and illegal that I could do to solve this, but again, against my morals. I'm happy to grey the law, but not break the law.

I've tried social engineering with some success and brief respites but again, limits. I've no issue hacking any dealers phones and the like and have done in the past and passed on intel, but alas downstairs are still there.

Our current society worships victims, but unfortunately your kind of victim is not numerous enough to get mainstream attention.

Interestingly enough, our society worships victims that either could not be helped, or that would take a lower-than-median place in the social ladder after the help arrived. It's like people feel better when they hear about someone who's life is more miserable than theirs.

Asperger dude who could become extremely productive and wealthy once he assigns the right priorities to sleep, noise reduction, and seeing through other people's bullshit, doesn't fit this pattern at all.

I had a good career, done some amazing things, but utterly shite art remuneration and got taken advantage of by many employers and mate-crime, also not a greedy person, and been told I'm too good natured for my own good, too intelligent for my own good and that's by many professionals and smart people, sadly that's all they could do beyond say that I've done all the right things and been failed.

SLeep the issue, they live vampire hours and terrible flat for noise and with that, it's a slow death.

When I accepted this place I asked: 1) I need a silent area at night 2) No heroin users as had issue in past

I was lied to and suffered ever since, apparently downstairs is the biggest known crackhead heroin user in the area and been instrumental in bringing heroin into the area and with that, it's been downhill ever since at a time I didn't need it and now I'm mid 50's, burned out so many times, physical and mental health issues, I'm spent and never going to get back to full time work and even then. I have no stability in routine due to antisocial impacts that still happen to this day and....see other comments.

People don't worship victims, they use victims as means to some end, like attaining political power or social capital. By extension, victims must stay victims to keep fulfilling that purpose.

You know what, you're kinda right as that would explain so much, more victims they have, bigger budgets, it's just....so so wrong.

The ones that use victims use them by making others worship those victims. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just an easily observable fact.

>So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support. >I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there.

Here's one uncomfortable fact about our society that most people sort of feel, but don't usually express in words. Despite what people say, nobody gives a damn about others' problems. People will tell you all kinds of kind and supportive words, because it makes them feel good about themselves being so kind. Nobody will go an extra mile and risk being attacked/sued/defamed, unless the problem starts seriously affecting them. Please do yourself a favor and put together what other people said and what they have done so far, and you will find this as the most plausible model.

If you truly have Aspergers, think of this purely logically. How much time/effort have you put into getting the truth out there? What if you put the same effort towards simply moving elsewhere? Make sure you understand what neighborhoods/apartment types will have lower probability of the same problem. Also think of renting a detached house in the middle of nowhere and working remotely. It could cost comparably to a downtown condo, but you will get priceless peace and quiet.

It is sad, but there is no "getting truth out there" option. There is an option of fighting the windmills, hearing kind words from everyone, while still stuck in a lifestyle you hate. Or there's an option of being selfish, setting a goal that will help you and just you, and allocating every resource you have towards achieving this goal.

nobody gives a damn about others' problems

The world is full of other people's problems, 7.8 billion lifetimes of them.

It's not just narcissism if people are unable to confront it all at once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion_fatigue

I have thought this out way more over the years and trust me - the only way forward would be public humiliation from somebody that would traction and with that.

I need a reporter who will listen and be listened too.

I have 2 years worth of recordings and with that, many examples of police ineptness, abuse.... the lot and nobody takes me seriously.

EVen played audio of her dealing, threateneing...and short version, they did nothing. Also many corrupt police, shocking but you do find out the hard way and so many inept police, shocking again, well less so in todays over-woke climate and sadly nothing constructive happens.

However this whole coronavirus, well, sad when that is doing more than I could to highlight the issues and more so, makes it harder for them to get the drugs, so I'm taking solice and great comfort in their suffering currently, sad I know but if you know all I've had to endure, it's enabled me to cope more in talking about this and trying again.

Heck, even dug out police home and private numbers and lets just say, they are useless, but hey, I feel better for it. Share the stress :).

The reporters care about stories that could bring a lot of attention, and hence advertisement. It's their bread and butter and unless they do so, they will be stuck with "utterly shite art remuneration".

In a world that accepts the whole neighborhoods crawling with mentally ill homeless drug addicts (google Downtown Vancouver East Side, or San Francisco Homeless) covering this would hardly be worth the reporter's time, sorry. Seriously, imagine how an article want would look like, and try to find anything similar published recently. Then divide your search results by the estimated number of crack dens in the areas you searched, and you'll find out that your chances of winning a lottery could be higher.

> I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have recordings and other proofs...

No, you don't. Nobody cares about crackheads. Furthermore, nobody cares about your problems, either. Not the police, not the welfare services, not the media, not even the people on HN. Nobody is going to call to get the details on this story as it unfolds.

You need to get out. Things may look hopeless. Perhaps they are, perhaps there's no way out. On the other hand, you almost certainly developed some form of learned helplessness, which is an actual delusion.

You picked a bad time to get out. Nobody is hiring. You don't have the right skills. You don't know how to talk to people.

Okay, so you're not going to get out. Make the best of it. Stop thinking about these people. They own your thoughts. They own you. They're probably not even aware of it. You just gave yourself away for nothing, to people who don't care. What a waste.

Take ownership of yourself. Good Luck.

Sadly the only avenue would be public exposure of this and that alas would bury under current events. Also the process could very well kill me anyway due to stress/heart. But that's happening anyhow, I'm close to the edge and would rather go out knowing justice lives than not.

Moving - see other responses, covered that.

Only way forward would be a reporter who wants a big story or availing illegal avenues of which I have over the years, formulated many, including the perfect murder.

But it's not as easy as it sounds and sadly hard to articulate all the aspects and details.

But I will see the whole lots of those who failed me and these scum justiced, one way or another. It's my only way forward as even if could move, I'd have no closure and the horrors would live on, I need closure or I'm stuck living this wherever I went and sadly there is not option for that - see other reply's.

I feel like this is a valid concern, but really when it comes to abusive relationships ... a lockdown isn't the problem / aggravating circumstance /etc.

I worked with kids who came from abusive / were in abusive families. The volume of abused partners who willingly stayed with the abuser was astonishingly high. They would even follow an abuser from one town to the next, even with services and options to not do so available.

That's not to blame them, and circumstances make things very hard (especially if you're poor, have kids, or both). But it is the simple reality that the abused partner's willingness to leave and stick to that decision was the real trigger for any positive change, and not the circumstances of their life. It is not an easy decision or easy thing to do, but there was just not getting around that it was the key too.

Obviously you can't just throw that at someone being abused because recrimination is of zero help / won't make things better.

Either way in a lockdown, or out of one, the victims are often just as "locked" in psychologically.

The lockdown is not the problem, but it a problem. A new and novel one, as the article explains. My girlfriend works at a non-profit which provides shelter and support to domestic violence survivors. She counsels people in all stages. Some of her clients are dealing with this exact problem.

This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital mechanics.

And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these processes.

I think you can recognize that when you see victims get out of abusive situations, it is the victim is the one who ultimately took the decisive action (abusers just generally don't stop doing that on their own...) as a fact, and still recognize how difficult it is, and you can even call for MORE / better programs (that's what I was working in ...), and there isn't any inherent blame or conflict there.

I appreciate that you brought your own perspective to the problem with your comment. I would have liked to have seen more clarity on how victims could be helped to choose to escape.

I'm sorry but this is a pot/kettle situation. What's more HN than pointing out that all of the things society is doing to fix the problem are useless? Then not actually providing a single solution to what you claim is a horrible problem. Having had a relative go through one of the programs you mentioned above successfully - on top of having friends who work for the institutions you claim are setup to do everything BUT help - I consider your response more offensive than his.

Do you have some hard examples of "it's impossible to get any help from these programs" or are you just another "government is inefficient and useless, we need to eliminate it" libertarians?

This thread is not the appropriate place to propose a policy solution because the parent article is about a sad topic with lots of terrible suffering. To make policy proposals here would be insensitive. And, no, I'm not a libertarian. I think that dysfunctional organizations are a moral problem that we must strive to solve, collectively. The free market will not.

To me it seems like you're falling into the trap of thinking that poverty somehow diminishes the agency and responsibility of the person.

poverty somehow diminishes the agency

But it does. It starts with the deposit for a new roof over the head.

Poverty does two things to us: limits our degrees of freedom (available choices) and diminishes our decision-making capacity (a famine/crisis response[1]). In extreme cases, poverty leads to sleep deprivation in which we cannot make even basic rational decisions.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity

I've been poor most of my life. I don't need to read a book to know that it sucks. I would say that wealth enhances life, not that poverty necessarily diminishes it.

The OP's point stands: most people who choose to stay with their abuser are not starving and sleep-deprived to the point of being unable to even have a choice, eh? There's something else going on. (Are there no wealthy people who fail to leave abusers?)

Anyhow, the question you raise in a sib comment is more important: how can we help victims of abuse choose (and succeed) to leave their abusers?

Thanks for sharing your perspective. As it happens, I also grew up poor. I found the book extremely interesting so I wouldn't discount it just because you had that experience.

Cheers! It looks pretty interesting.

Just to be really clear, I'm not trying to say that poverty makes things harder, or course it does. Really all I want to point out is that even in the worst circumstances we still have the power to choose how we respond or react to them. But again, it's possible that circumstances are so bad that it becomes really difficult to make good decisions. I'm not trying to blame people for their circumstances, or bad fortune, or even their bad decisions (we all make mistakes.) I'm not really trying to blame anyone for anything. I believe that people are generally doing the best they can with what they've got.

It certainly diminishes their options.

What percent of unwillingness to leave abusive situations is truly due to poverty? I would have guessed the vast majority was due to love, self esteem, sunk cost, etc.

Remember that in at least some social classes, women still have much lower earning potential than men.

The traditional dynamic of the breadwinner husband who works a job that pays relatively well, and the wife who is a homemaker or works part-time for much lower pay, is definitely not dead. For an older woman without much education and job experience, the prospect of striking out on her own economically can be quite bleak.

As someone who does a lot of work in the area of stopping abusers, and also has my own experiences as a victim of an abuser - for a long time I placed all the responsibility and agency on the man who abused me and didn't want to see that I actually made bad choices and ignored early red flags when I was involved with him. This doesn't mean that it was my fault that he was abusive, it just means that I can make better choices in the future and not let this happen to me again. When I used to view this abuser as entirely responsible for his abuse, it made me feel like I was helpless to prevent this from happening to me again. Abusers tend to target women who are insecure and don't know how to stand up for themselves and set boundaries, so I absolutely believe that teaching women how to notice red flags (ignoring boundaries, gaslighting, blatant disrespect, lies) can help keep them safe.

It's definitely more important to make sure abusers face consequences, but I think it's mechanical to ignore that women who are victimized can learn skills to protect themselves as well.

Edit: There's a dialectical relationship between the abusive man and his female victim. The abusive man has more power initially, but in order for the victim to leave the abusive relationship, she has to choose to prioritize her own safety and well-being (rather than listen to the abuser's manipulation). A lot of female victims tend to be victims of multiple men, so a solution to domestic abuse must address both aspects, and it is possible to address the victim's agency in an empathetic and caring way without insinuating that she is at fault for being a victim. There are resources that address this, like Lundy Barcroft's "Why Does He Do That?"

In my case, I really had no concept of boundaries or what a healthy relationship looked like until I was well into adulthood. I only realized this four years after I was in an abusive relationship.

Also, I definitely think that the main priority should be ensuring that abusers face consequences, and the justice system completely fails victims of domestic violence in this area. Without this, telling women to learn better skills is just victim blaming.

Not to take away from anything you've said, but because I badly needed to hear it once, and I'm not alone in that: men can be abused, too, and women can be abusive.

If you're a guy in a relationship that feels like it might be abusive, but you're in the habit of thinking that can't be a real feeling - think again, and talk to someone.

(If you can't think of anyone else to talk to, my email's in my profile, and I'll do my best.)

I remember reading that it takes on average 7 attempts for domestic victim to leave till it stucks.

They stay and come back for a lot of reasons - practical and emotional. Practically, leaving is the moat dangerous time, that is when victim get killed or attacked the most. Shelter mean isolation from her contacts and for kids and their friends. Oftentimes there is money.

Emotionally, there is hope that "he changed". There is trauma bonding that plays against leaving. Victim believes she deserves it. Victim is socialized into dysfunctional patterns that make going back to him seem as right action or make it hard to be alone or with safe partner . And often it is that victims perceives red flags warnings that makes others break up as normal masculinity - meaning she/he ends in another bad relationship right after.

There is a lot more on not leaving then just programs faults.

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

You don't seem to realize this, but this is very subjective and not something that can actually be followed and meet whatever judgement you had in mind when picking on that comment.

You've done it to me too a couple of times and I decided to just ignore it since I cannot possibly satisfy your subjective judgement, but you are penalizing comments now.

I'm happy to agree in principle that there's a lot of interpretation involved.

In this case, I'm not sure it's so subjective. The comment broke the site guideline against name-calling ("This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week"), and chose an interpretation ("personal responsibility shaming") that clearly wasn't the strongest plausible.

It's known that abuse cases tend to spike around Christmas and new year as people tend to spend a lot of time home together with their abusive partners. That's during a rather merry time. With lockdowns in place and the stress people are dealing with currently not only will it get worse for current victims we will have more victims of abuse in the months coming. Governments should not only be concerned will the economic consequences this pandemic has caused but the social and mental health problems it is causing currently.

I'm glad there's starting to be some press about different groups for whom the shutdown has outsized negative impacts.

Another such "forgotten" group is Alcoholics Anonymous. Their meetings are mostly canceled, and for a lot of those folks those meetings are what keeps them on the wagon.

I think you could replace those with online meetups though?

Also children with abusive parents. Normally one of the factors that can limit abuse is that a teacher or school employee might notice an injury. Some schools are trying their best with "remote visual inspections" (I wish I was making this up) but it's surely not as effective.

And a shocking number of people are trying to rationalize this tragedy as "not that bad", wow.

If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Some people call the police because McDonald's screwed up their order. Call the police.

>If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate.

Talk to your neighbors before you call the cops on them!!!!

If you see someone get physically abused then sure, you're witnessing a crime in progress, call the cops. If you're not then don't. It's wildly inappropriate to call the cops on a hunch.

If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. Cops are good at arresting people. They are not good at mediating. If they get called to a DV situation where they can't arrest someone they have a lot of potential to make things worse.

> If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct.

This "wait and see" approach gets people killed.

Personally, I'd far rather be investigated for something I didn't do than have someone else die because a third party didn't act on their suspicions.

Hunches can be wrong, but they come from somewhere, and they're often right.

Furthermore, abusers are good at getting their victims to never tell anyone about what happens, and often at hiding or destroying evidence, too.

McDonald's and KFC: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/police-urge-...

In addition, sadly there are nearly 0 shelters for men.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victi...

Good point. It reminds us that it's not only physical violence that counts. Sometimes psychological violence (harassment, blackmailing etc.) is even worse, especially when kids are put in the mix.

I'm sure physical violence happens against men as well. Many would never retaliate or really physically defend themselves against a woman. And you can be very vulnerable when you sleep or look away.

If you think that’s important then open one.

I've spent the last 20 years providing informal supports to street-involved gay and bisexual youth and adults, many of whom are fleeing abuse of some kind.

I was distantly involved in opening one of Toronto's first shelters for abused men and sole fathers with dependents, and it's been difficult to secure public funding comparable to what is given to women's abuse shelters on a per capita basis. The government largely seems to have the attitude that the general men's shelters are adequate, even for non-gender-conforming men and men who are abuse victims, and that children of men who are in shelters should simply be taken into foster care, rather than trying to keep the family together like they try with women's shelters.

I say this with the hope that it doesn't devolve into a flamewar about gender relations and roles, but for whatever reasons, our society seems to be less sympathetic to a man fleeing an abusive partner or violence than it is to a woman in the same circumstance.

> our society seems to be less sympathetic to a man fleeing an abusive partner or violence than it is to a woman in the same circumstance.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22728665.

For better or worse, it's hard to imagine there'd be much demand (even if there's arguably need). I've been in a situation sort of like this, and reaching out to a shelter would have been the last thought on my mind.

Rather, we're pretty much taught and shamed into "sucking it up", both by women and men. That's usually what happens, and those who no longer can generally just end up as statistics.

While you're correct about the social conditioning, I think it's a ecosystem sort of feedback loop. "Real men dont need shelters" so then we dont make them. So then when men need shelters they think "See? Other men dont need them, I must suck it up and be a realmens"

I do think they should exist (and be publicized).

For everyone, lockdown means relative captivity.

Or if you just don't like your roommate, but can't afford to live on your own or move out.

That is a pretty flippant comparison.

I’m the trustee of a regional women’s shelter; we run a small building of 8 apartments which we offer to women and children as short-medium term refuges at no cost.

The people who arrive with us are experiencing trauma past breaking point (often abuse is normalised and needs to be significantly escalated until someone is willing to take flight), with symptoms of PTSD, depression, and often significant physical injuries. Children absorb this abuse in a similar manner, without any means to process the trauma.

Organisations like our face an extremely uncertain future; while the need for what we do remains, and probably increases, many women are unable to move or scared to due to the government advice on travel. This is against the backdrop of being unable to procure supplies; we provide our residents with everything from food to nappies, all donated or bought from cash donations.

I appreciate that living with a difficult roommate is a testing circumstance. But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.

When do you think there will be shelters for the victims of domestic abuse from women?

I had a a friend bullied to suicide by their mother but there was just no support for someone who wasn't physically abused by a man in the 00s.

It's been a slow change, but it's changing.

https://www.npr.org/2017/07/15/537381161/more-domestic-viole...

There are. The nonprofit my girlfriend works for works with all victims of domestic abuse. I imagine most such organizations do the same.

There are. Awareness is growing and all organisations which are serious will have a plan in place and facilities available.

Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

My organisation is in the UK, so I can’t speak for elsewhere.

I’m sorry to hear about your friend, and for your loss. DV is truly horrible in all circumstances, and the effects ripple through many people.

>Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

Domestic abuse does not begin and end with violence.

My friend was never physically hurt, yet he was still tortured enough to kill himself.

Verbal/emotional abuse is still a form of violence.

https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

> Domestic violence includes behaviors that physically harm, arouse fear, prevent a partner from doing what they wish or force them to behave in ways they do not want. It includes the use of physical and sexual violence, threats and intimidation, emotional abuse and economic deprivation.

Did the person you're replying to edit their post? If not, you should consider that lesbian relationships can be abusive.

But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.

Trust me, there are very tough situations that you haven't seen or you wouldn't say that.

Fortunately domestic abuse has some legal status. But falling with a mentally deranged person in a shared condo is dangerous and more usual than you think.

What about people who aren't women or children? They don't deserve help? Have we collectively decided to just let them rot?

I think that the situation can have more positive than negative effects in this sense.

A major problem with abused people is that they assume that their current life is more predictable (comforting) than the other options (being jobless, poor and alone and having a low self-estimate), so they relativize and hide the situation because they fear more the uncertainty. Maybe they will solve the problem temporarily trying to avoid him/her for some hours.

The lockdown can be a real eye-opener in this sense (and safety is at a fake cough of distance).

Moreover, to hide the problem from their neighbors would be almost impossible. Everybody will be at home 24h/7days a week for months, including men and women that would be otherwise working in the city all day, unaware of the situation for years.

A wife alone at home all day could choose avoid getting in trouble herself and shut their mouth about what happens in the next door just by fear. Men will be much less tolerant with this situation, specially when in front of their wifes and children. Will be pushed to do something about it to restore their role as, well... men.

And of course, being cynical, there is a small possibility that the coronavirus just fix the bug for once and for good, or will send the abuser alone to an hospital with pneumonia. A place where will be unable to hide their body marks to medical staff, will find psychological support and enter in a program for people abused and will have some extra time to rethink about their toxic relationship and heal in every aspect

I'm afraid that is absolutely NOT what we can expect. It is unfortunately much more statistical: The more time couples spend together when there is abuse, the more likely abuse will occur. There may be outlying scenarios like the ones you put forward, but in general, the risk of harm simply, increases.

Oh god, you clearly don’t have much knowledge of abusive partners, because you couldn’t be more wrong.

Maybe we could discuss the ideas instead to discuss my knowledge and just say I am wrong. We both could learn something.

Play the neiborghs a role denouncing abusive situations? I think that yes, in my experience they sometimes do it. Therefore more people at home could be traslated easily to more videos, more audios, and more denounces. Am I wrong?

Do the victims choose to ignore that they are being abused? IMHO Yes, they do, for years until the situation can't be hiddden anymore or something happens and the victim suddenly awake.

If the victim does not choose to change and break with their former life, there is not a lot of things that other people can do. In my experience victims lie, systematically, constantly, about the real situation and they actively try to protect their abuser.

Your experience can be different, of course.

Estimates are that, if governments do nothing to combat Covid 19, then the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days.[1]

Sacrificing 4 months of exercise, meaningful conversation, sex and other basic human needs is really not worth it.

[1] For example 13.26 million QALYs divided by the US population https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-ben...

And that load is taken almost entirely by the elderly (50+) population. Who don't matter? Are not worth it?

They vote it turns out, so no we're not going to see a politician sacrificing them any time soon.

actually the median age of death is 80, for some more accurate perspective. Generally speaking I would consider myself lucky to live to that age and greedy if I thought that others should make major sacrifices so I could live slightly beyond it.

Actually the unacceptable rise in mortality begins around 55. Who cares the median age, for something that's so severe? That's a spurious argument.

"The median age of those executed by firing squad was 80, so why are you whining?"

> the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days

It's not evenly distributed, though.

The euphemism of “Life expectancy of the whole population” is disguising that you’re saying 200k-1.7 million deaths is worth you not having to stay home for 4 months. This isn’t even factoring in the millions who will suffer severe cases needing hospitalization and suffering permanent lung damage but won’t die.

Secondly, the article you linked has several arguments against your own conclusion. For example, that many will suffer permanent lung damage, a significant multiple of the number of people who will die will be seriously ill and need hospitalization, and that this cost-benefit analysis overvalues the lives of the young over the old.

There are alternatives to locking the whole population down: For example the Imperial College study predicts less deaths if only the 70+ population is locked down.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s...

Also look at page 10: If you lockdown for only 5 months, the virus just comes back and still kills 1 in 500 people.

If you want to minimize the deaths, the study suggests that you need 400+ days of lockdowns over a 2 year period.

So, forget slowing the epidemic, screw the healthcare workers that'll get the brunt of the caseloads, and the overloaded hospitals, screw the ones who will die in excess of what we can actually prevent, just because you feel it's inconvenient.

Thanks for self-identifying. I'll be sure to exclude you from anything I can think of, since you're willing to sacrifice random strangers for your own comfort.

> since you're willing to sacrifice random strangers for your own comfort

Come on, so are you, and so is everybody. Are you ready to not have modern life because traffic deaths of random strangers are necessarily part of the package?

This whole situation turns this site into Twitter, another corona victim.

Wow. You seriously think I'm that selfish? Or that I'm any less serious about wanting better for everyone even when it's not on this site? I'm not exactly deprived in my 95 percent home situation, but yes I'll give up whatever i need to if friends family and strangers everywhere survive because of what we do.

> I'll give up whatever i need to if friends family and strangers everywhere survive because of what we do.

So a homestead, amish-style, it is?

I do understand the sentiment, but we (as a society and individually) absolutely accept that strangers will die because of how we (as a society and individually) live. We just don't like to speak or think about it, because it's not compatible with our self-image as selfless, hyper-moral beings. But given the choice between a super market nearby and zero traffic deaths in the country, we all know which on we will choose.

All of those things are possible while maintaining social distancing. If you are young, then 4 months is whatever, you have plenty of time left in your life.

You are right, the cost/benefit is not there if you care only for yourself and you are not someone who is immune-compromised. The ask is that you consider other people (do you have any family or friends who could die from this?) and even if you have mild or no symptoms, you could act as a carrier that infects other people and may even be responsible for the disease that kills them.

When I was in China, I called my mom every day. But she was still lonely.

If teleconferencing was a perfect substitute for face to face meetings, why does the world spend so much every year on office space, commuting to work, hotels, flights etc. ?

I said "and other basic human needs". The article mentioned people that can no longer escape abusive relationships. There's also children who will not see both parents during the lockdown because they are separated.

(Btw, I'm personally sticking 100% to the rules of the lockdown.

I'm just saying the lockdown is interfering with human nature and will become unenforceable)

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