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I get the logic, but what pisses me off is that fact that those thousands of people who are packing churches and have similar beliefs as you will be lining up outside the ER and crowding hospitals as soon as they get sick.

And infecting other people, who have nothing to do with those churches.

I don't agree with everything you say, but I do think it's noteworthy to express your opinion in a way thats non accusational and explanatory from an external perspective.

You don't have the right to expose other people you interact with in life just because of your fatalistic belief system. If you and your group are completely quarantined that's one thing, but otherwise this is unconscionably irresponsible.

Isn't there a saying "God only helps those who help themselves". Surely the logical way to interoperate this is that you should stay at home, not get infected and pray from home.

Not necessarily. By "God only helps those who help themselves," we are called to take reasonable precautions, and to pray for those afflicted as much as possible within our state in life.

Furthermore, the Holy Mass is the most powerful prayer that can be offered to God. We have celibate priests who chose to volunteer their lives and give up the goods of marriage just for the ability to say this prayer. We certainly do not abandon this prayer when we need it most.

Requiring priests to be celibate is basically asking them to self-select based on how much normative heterosexual relationships appeal to them.

Possibly, but we do believe that God's priesthood is a divine institution, thus God will select members for it. Those selected will begin to have a natural inclination towards the priesthood, though because of the gift of free will, they have the choice whether to accept or deny the calling.

What free will? There’s only one timeline, only one past, only one future. The only difference between the past and the future is we think we can see the past.

The universe is clearly deterministic. Our brains just do an astonishingly good job of making us think we’re the authors of our own decisions; were it not for that powerful illusion we’d immediately recognise free will as the absurdity which it is.

It's asking them to self-select based on how much the priesthood appeals to them. Not all Christian denominations may agree that pastors must be celibate, but we all agree that leading a church isn't something you do from 9 to 5 while maintaining a normal life on the side.

Agreed, it usually involves bringing some kids home from church after hours.

Please don't do this here.

As someone that's not religious, I never understood prayer. I mean if God already has a plan for everything and everyone, wouldn't the prayer already been taken into consideration so that it shouldn't effect the outcome at all?

I would recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church from section 2558 onward. It's free online and you might be surprised at how understandable, clear, and honest of a definition of prayer it is.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s...

Thanks for the additional resource, but I don't find it understandable at all. I mean I understand the words, but together I have no idea how to interpret them.

For example, "Only when we humbly acknowledge that "we do not know how to pray as we ought," are we ready to receive freely the gift of prayer." What does that mean? It seems to be saying that prayer is communion with God, but also that "Prayer is the raising of one's mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God."

So is prayer a request of God or not?

Think of "God's plan" as being like a computer program. Even if the "code" doesn't change, it can still yield different outcomes based on run-time inputs. Whether we pray, whether we repent, whether we even believe, etc. are such inputs. Free will says we can choose to do these things are not, but it doesn't mean there won't be divine response. At the very least, this is usually construed as affecting whether we go to heaven or hell. Depending on how far you take it, it can lead all the way to the "prosperity gospel" idea that shows of devotion can be directly tied to immediate and material reward.

Prayer is the button that you push. It might have no effect, and whether it does or not might be preordained, but you still have to push it to find out.

Sure, Sophocles said that, along with other ancient Greek philosophers and playwrights. I think that no matter one's beliefs, pretty much everyone would agree that a person who takes risks (especially with other people's lives) while thinking someone or something else will bail them out is being prideful, which is a bad thing.

In this case, wouldn't doing everything you could be stay at home and not help spread the virus? I mean, what would make God happier, no one dies and no one goes to church for a while, or everyone goes to church and some people die because of it?

Actually, surprise, that some people went to church and possibly died (even though we do quite extreme measures to prevent death - going to a grocery store, in our situation, is far riskier than offering mass with everyone confined to their vehicles).

You have to understand two things: The first is that the Mass is the greatest prayer that humans can offer to God, and that your potential death offering it is valuable as long as you were not tempting God in the process (which is why we aren't careless in the face of a virus). It is important to emphasize that we do NOT _seek out_ death, but rather, if we should die, that is rewarded.

The second thing is, what is there to fear about death? To quote the Eastertide Proclamation: "Where, Oh Death, is your sting?" If you believe in God and have served him with your life, what do you have to fear? This life is described as a "valley of tears," while "eye has not seen, ear has not heard, what God has in store for those who love him."

The second point seems very selectively applied. If we take this stance, that death is but the beginning of something greater, then why do anything to prevent death at all? I mean, why wear seatbelts, why exercise etc. Isn't living a long and fulfilling life important in religious circles too?

@yibg Absolutely, life is a gift. We don't _fear_ death, but we don't go seeking it out either, and we certainly do everything we can to reasonably avoid it. This is because God put us here for a purpose, to know, love, and serve him (as defined in a whole different argument), and our job is to serve our current purpose and task in life as much as possible until God decides that your time has ended.

So circling back to the current situation. Isn't the best way to "do everything we can to reasonably avoid it" to stay home and not be around other people?

> what would make god happier

It's supposedly not a vending machine, from my understanding. It is a realization that you are limited either way in the grand scheme and a belief in a promise and meaning.

I just thought of a joke, "Only Catholic churches should be considered 'essential services' during the quarantine, since Protestants don't need it to know God."

I thank you for your comment, that you seem to be sincere in expressing your beliefs. I cannot help but express my absolute astonishment that this level of "proving your love by risking your life" exists in educated society.

I also have never heard of Church described in terms of "honor and sacrifice" in a positive manner. I have never known that church was seen as so mandatory by a Christian faith that you should risk your life to go, excepting human oppression.

For what it's worth, some (most?) Catholic diocese in the U.S. are not having services and the usual requirement to attend is not in effect.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."

And, to be honest, most of us will give our lives for _something_ even if it isn't God. Whether it be pleasure, success, money, drugs, we all chose something to give our lives for.

> Therefore, it is logical to believe that we should offer more sacrifice and honor to God in these difficult times instead of less

I would be all up for this kind of voluntary natural selection if it didn't sweep up the people who didn't sign up for this shit.

There's an old joke that goes something like this:

A priest was caught in a flood. Standing on the lawn outside his house, ankle-deep in water, he spoke to a group of men in a rubber life raft:

"I'm staying here. God will protect me."

Later, standing on the second floor of his house, he spoke again to a group of men in a search-and-rescue boat:

"I'm staying here. God will provide!"

Finally, the waters rose until they reached the roof of his house, and shouting to a Coast Guard rescue vessel, he insisted:

"I'M STAYING HERE! GOD WILL PROTECT ME!"

Some time later, the priest was waiting impatiently outside of the pearly gates, and when St. Peter allowed him through, he marched right up to God and demanded an explanation.

"I have been faithful all my life. I have served you in all your glory, O Lord, and you promised to keep me safe from harm. Why did you let me die?"

And the Lord spake thus: "You idiot, I sent you three ships!"

God does not expect you to give all unto Him. God expects you to take care of yourself. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made to serve Man; there's no point in following practices that harm us. I firmly believe that this is a lesson many churches willfully ignore, which makes me sad, because it's really kind of the point of Jesus's whole journey.

Frankly, mega-churches are a perversion of Jesus's message to begin with, and I suspect their staff would be on the receiving end of a thorough whipping if Jesus were to enter one today. But given that the Second Coming hasn't happened yet, I humbly suggest that you learn from the priest caught in the flood, and recognize that God does not want to be a helicopter parent.

Like I said about not tempting God. By refusing to take the three ships, this is a perfect example about a priest who was, even if unintentionally, tempting God by expecting a dramatic divine intervention.

God does expect us to give all unto him. However, this does mean different status depending upon your state in life. If you are married, that doesn't mean enter a chapel 24/7. That would not please God. Instead, you please God by doing everything to be a virtuous husband/wife and by raising your children in a holy manner, and by doing your best to observe God's commandments.

And, finally, I agree with you that protestant mega-churches are a perversion of Jesus's message due to both doctrinal errors and attachment to money, and I fear that they will one day be like parable of the 10 virgins in the Bible:

"Later, the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’ But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’"

Staying home is one of those three ships. The other ones are to wash your hands and to self-isolate if you think you've been infected.

Why would you choose to single out Protestant mega churches and not Catholic churches? This bias seems awfully self-serving.

What's the point of humiliating evil? Seems more like a petty human impulse than a deific one.

"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."

> Which is more humiliating for evil? Being instantly defeated by an omnipresent, all-powerful God, or having been resisted and fought against by comparatively weak human beings who gave their all in resistance?

That's not the whole set of choices. There is also the 'painful defeat by a small virus for which there is at present no cure' and 'spreading that virus around to others who do not share your particular beliefs'.

God - assuming one exists - isn't moving that virus around, but you are.

Which is why we take reasonable (and even somewhat unreasonable) precautions, such as offering the mass with all people inside their vehicles, even though less than a dozen people have died in our state AFAIK. Going to a grocery store is certainly riskier in our area.

Nobody gasses up on their way to the church? Nobody going for tea and biscuits afterwards? Just straight to church and back home? Everybody? You sure about that?

If less than a dozen people in your state died, at 1% mortality that's at least 1200 people infected, plus the 5-6 days incubation time.

Actually, most. We have a stay at home order active in Minnesota, but have City permission for this as they believe the risk is too low.

Time will tell. I hope for what it's worth that none of you picked it up or passed it around. Best of luck with that.

Here in NL where I live the progression was something like 'extremely small chance it will come here' to 'overloaded ICU's' in the span of 3.5 weeks.

I must say I find it odd that in another thread I'm arguing with someone who wants me to come up with some kind of plan to keep ICU's running in the face of imminent disaster and you go out on your outing because of your imaginary friend.

Both of you are out of touch with reality in different ways in my opinion, and in both cases you're going to end up sorely disappointed long before this is all over.

If you keep this up you are going to endanger yourself and the people you love. The risk will go up until you win the lottery ticket, and then, likely you will end up occupying some of that scarce ICU capacity, effectively killing someone else.

Good grief. Just stop gathering in groups for a couple of months.

I believe in a God, it's called a vaccine, and I got the numbers to prove it (polio, small pox, etc).

What does it matter? What a toyish impression of human life, with such a focus on humiliation and glory and great narrative. How glorious is it to be concerned with glory and humiliation?

Who will be listening around for these stories? What will we be doing?

Everyone, when the Resurrection of the Dead happens. We believe in two judgements: A personal judgement, which happens the moment you die and covers only the events that happened during your life, and then a last judgement in which every action by every human is revealed and the story made clear.

Can you account for the value of human life in the atheistic worldview? Bags of chemicals, here by pure, unintended happenstance, is hardly a high view of humanity.

Who will be around listening to these stories once the universe cools?

Aren't bags of chemicals also the part of the Christian perspective on physics? The fact that both Christians and Muslims can observe bags of chemicals does not restrict them to how they choose to think about people, or what values they choose promote.

What glory is there in the concern for glory, and moreover, the humiliation of evil people? Isn't there a smell to having a taste for the humiliation of evil?

There doesn’t need to be in-built value in human life for it to be valuable. As a species and society, we have chosen to value life and put rules in place to protect it. I find it inspiring that our species decided that, not a deity.

For what it’s worth, there is not one atheistic worldview; the lack of belief in a god is not an ideology. It is nonsensical just like asking about the shared worldview of everyone who lacks belief in leprechauns or Zeus.