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Comment by ThePhysicist | Hacker News Reader

Sounds really impressive, but writing "1,000 tests per day with just 100 devivces" is really marketing BS I think. They should've just written "10 tests per day per device".

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The full quote is "A Bosch Vivalytic analyzer can perform up to ten tests in the space of 24 hours. This means it takes just 100 devices to evaluate up to 1,000 tests per day." which makes more sense, the 100 devices is just an example.

But I agree that it's largely unnecessary, the initial "up to ten tests per day" would have been enough.

The full quote does one extra thing, it implies that buying 100+ of these machines is totally expected.

Is this marketing?

Better (or worse) marketing: "a test takes almost 2.5 hours".

It's almost as if the decision makers that might buy these can't multiply by 10 very well. (Oh wait, they are probably politicians ... )

Is that true, or is it running multiple tests partly simultaneously?

Yes, and no. In runs nine tests in parallel (like Covid-19, influenza-A, influenza-B etc), but all on the same sample.

I'm not sure how they price these devices but it could make sense to compare against labs. The question is not how many tests a device can perform but how many tests you can perform for all available devices and at a price comparable to larger lab installations. Maybe 100 devices is a comparable rate there.

Larger lab with a variety of specialized equipment and trained personnel vs. a wall of these machines; very different.

Can these machines do anything else after we're done with Covid-19? I assume they can run other tests?

they also simultaneously test for influenza A and B

There is a chance we will never be done with COVID-19.

Obviously its implied because that's the influx of patients a lot of hospitals are seeing.

True. This is seems to be on one of the extreme ends of latency versus throughput optimization and its niche in the big picture of Covid-19 will be very small.

But it appears to be a new test cartridge for an already deployed machine, so it makes sense to have it anyways. I don't know who the typical customer of an on-site lab in a box like that is, but I guess that as last part of the market will be defined by remoteness and there it absolutely makes sense.

See https://bosch-vivalytic.com/ for the marginally less fluffy product page

> True. This is seems to be on one of the extreme ends of latency versus throughput optimization and it's niche in the big picture of Covid-19 will be very small.

Could be very important for screening doctors, nurses, and people in close contact with high risk populations.

Universell, intuitiv, schnell!

Man, I love German advertising. It's like the one for Ritter Sport chocolate. SQUARE! PRACTICAL! GOOD!

The meter in German, "Quadratisch, praktisch, gut" is rhythmic at least

Speaking of things fluffy, for what I assume to be a cutting-edge medical device the promo video on that page is.. interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgW2pYmzcco

Oh, impressive demonstration of why stuff is expensive, and which b-arker jobs will likely take the biggest hit from post pandemic down-to-earth-ness.

I don't know how many of these machines are already deployed, but if there are a lot of them already at many doctors, it could be a huge thing, as suddenly, the tests can be run on existing infrastructure.

This seems to be an existing product that was extended to test for coronavirus: https://www.bosch-vivalytic.com/en/product/vivalytic-analyse...

The device itself was apparently made available about two years ago: https://www.irishnews.com/business/2018/04/23/news/randox-bo...

So yes, this is a great achievement and excellent marketing.

"Up to" is a synonym for "not more than but probably fewer".

So it doesn't really say how many tests it can process in a real-world setting.

Don't current testing machines have much, much higher throughput? Like in the thousands of tests per day? It seems the advantage of this new device is latency. Of course if they are cheap enough and easy to use that you can buy thousands of them and distribute to all hospitals then might also increase total throughput.

It’s a really small device as far as I understand, so you could use it in a small practice or even on the go (?). This can be an advantage as most of the lab systems weigh several tons and take up a lot of floor space, hence you can never use them in a decentralized setting.

The intersection between moneyedness and remoteness. The more I think about it the more I suspect that the pilot market for this class of device would be the sick bay of a yacht that has its own Wikipedia page. Which is fine, but surely nothing that will have a meaningful impact on our general understanding of the epidemic.

https://www.bosch-vivalytic.com/en/product/vivalytic-tests/v...

That describes how this particular test works. It's a small device with self-contained cartridges, so it's designed to be used outside a lab and doesn't require experts to operate. But as far as I can see, it only processes a single sample at a time. A typical PCR setup in the lab can handle 96 reactions at a time, though you also need controls there which I assume are built in the cartridge in some way in this test. And then there are the big automated systems.

I think the benefit of this device here is only present if you already have one, it's not a way to seriously scale up testing as a whole unless these devices are very widely used already.

Current machines test large batches at a time. You need to wait until you fill a batch, otherwise you waste valuable reagents.

The idea is to not have a lab with a huge machine testing several thousand samples a day, but to have these devices spread out throughout the hospital and doctor's offices to test closer to the patient. A device will also be much cheaper than the fully automated devices in labs.

If it works and they can provide enough devices, this could be great. Logistics (getting samples and material to labs and handling them there) is one of the constraining factors at the moment.

Also it can do multiple tests so it makes it easier to distinguish exactly what you have.

Sometimes you need the motorcycle. Sometimes you need the train. If you only have trains or only have motorcycles, it's hard to meet all the needs.

> Sounds really impressive, but writing "1,000 tests per day with just 100 devivces" is really marketing BS I think.

Correct.

> They should've just written "10 tests per day per device".

Incorrect. Marketing BS works.

And it even works on people who fully understand it and think they are above it

Give people at-least some credit... :) It doesn't work like you think at all. We buy lots of high end equipment for our vaccine research/manufacturing, including PCR machines. Nobody in biotech opens up their wallet for high-ticket items based on a few words on a website. They have to actually demonstrate that it does what you want. We demand application notes, papers, data, industry references, the works. Before a purchase is made a URS document is prepared, then there is the FAT, the SAT, IQ/OQ/PQ validation and on and on..

I'll refer you to what your sibling said:

"It even works on people who fully understand it and think they are above it."

> Nobody in biotech opens up their wallet for high-ticket items based on a few words on a website.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the wording has no effect.

I don't understand your comment. Are you presenting an opinion of your own that you want me to respond to?

You're talking about it, so they achieved their goal.

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