An Oregon creamery making vodka from milk
atlasobscura.com
atlasobscura.com
The "high end vodka" thing is such a joke. A few years ago, one of the vodka companies put an article into Wikipedia with all their high-end vodka hype. That did not end well for them. People started digging for reliable sources about the company, and found them. Turned out the vodka company was entirely a marketing operation. Production, bottling, and distribution was outsourced to another company, one that makes liquor products to order in addition to marketing brands of their own. That company is quite open about what they do in the trade press, so lots of reliable info was available.
The ethanol came from an industrial refinery sized plant in the Midwest, where corn went in and ethanol and cattle feed came out. Some of the alcohol was re-distilled for beverages and cosmetics, and some of it went to oil refineries to be blended into gasoline. Tank cars of ethanol went by rail to the outsourcing company, which had its own railroad sidings. The outsourcing company took in ethanol, did a bit of re-distilling and polishing, added de-ionized tap water and flavoring, and bottled. Just like they did for the other thousand or so products they make. No secret in the industry, but something the general public usually doesn't find out about.
It's all bottles and labeling. The outsourcing company admits they make a thousand different brands of booze, but only have a hundred different recipes. The company moved to an area north of San Francisco a few years ago to be next door to the bottle-making plant, and have better rail access. All that ended up in Wikipedia.
There's an interesting economy of scale in doing it this way. Under US law, the booze industry is divided into distillers/brewers, wholesalers, and retailers. Usually, the distiller/brewer makes the final product and bottles it, there are bulk shipments of bottled goods to wholesalers, and wholesalers are basically a fulfillment operation serving retailers. But the way this outsourcing company does it, the distiller/brewer is an industrial plant sending them tank cars of ethanol, and they make up the consumer product and distribute it to retailers. Only one step of trucking instead of two.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=distillery+hand+sanitizer&df=m&ia=...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/03/17/no-purell-di...
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/03/20/c...
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-jersey/articles/...
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/03/17/distilleries-usi...
etc.
You still have to have a distiller's license to buy it from them. Distillers can transfer products between themselves in bond. Bond is a process that exists mainly to make sure the excessive excise taxes levied on distilled spirits get paid. It's basically an audit trail for the TTB. You don't cut out a middle man, you actually add one, yourself. You just have two manufacturers, a distributor, and a retailer in the chain.
The TTB requires you to pass it through your own still one time to call it your vodka. (I do canned cocktails so I'm not 100% clear on how exactly that works, the copacker I use is a distiller too and makes their own vodka from MGP stock and told me about this. I think the TTB added the requirement after the whole Tito's debacle.)
I'm not sure which outsourcing company you're referring to. No liquor company makes 1,000 different brands. MGP makes a good array of products (and they have competitors) so there are a lot of whiskies, vodkas, gins, etc. on the market that come from their distilled spirits. They don't make any of the brands. (I mean, they do have a few of their own brands now, but not many.)
Probably the vast majority of distilleries are buying at least some stuff from MGP, Signature Spirits, and the other bulk wholesalers. Even the guys who mostly make their own might supplement with that. If you make apple brandy with apples from your orchard, and the weather kills the apple crop, you're going to be supplementing.
Also, food-grade ethanol is much more expensive to produce than the stuff that ends up in hand sanitizer or fuel typically. The non-edible ethanol uses yeast that ferment fast and hard but would taste like garbage in liquor, and the equipment is much cheaper than food-grade stuff, which always adds significant cost. I have to think even now liquor fetches much higher prices, so I doubt they're rushing to sell it to Gojo (other than as a marketing ploy). Also drinking is way up now, all my friends in all 3 tiers are telling me they can't keep up with demand. But with fuel demand being seriously curtailed and gas prices at a several year low, I bet fuel ethanol is going to hand sanitizer factories right now.
I know some distilleries are making their own hand sanitizer, and it's probably a combination of marketing and capitalizing on a very brief trend, but I bet the bulk is coming from fuel ethanol. Speculation on my part there.
This isn’t that uncommon or novel. There are brands that go through the entire 3 tiers that are owned by a retailer. They pay a manufacturer to make it and then a distributor to distribute it to themselves.
Also the 3 tier system isn’t federal law, so there are states where, for instance, breweries and distilleries can sell direct to retail.
Mostly, but there is a difference of taste between low and mid quality vodka. But the difference between mid and high quality vodka is questionable. At least for most people, this happens to also be the case for many other alcoholica.
Be aware that it's about taste not fancy production methods. And yes while not strong vodka has taste to it ;=) it's not "just" pure alcohol.
After doing a bit of brewing and distilling, I came to the conclusion that most quality alcohol brands are nothing but clever marketing. The problem in the case you mentioned is that we got to see the man behind the curtain.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9059821
Others: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
I, er, distilled several sources into my own account:
https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/BzTu6Ot3xUmPeiIIYgDZAA
Another interesting diversion is to track when various now-widely-recognised alcohol brands emerged as notable, largely through Google's Ngram Viewer.
Several rums emerged durin US Prohibition. Smirnov and numerous others (vodka and whiskey mostly) during the 1950s. Several major beers in the 1960s and 1970s, and others since in the 80s, 90s, etc.
"Irish Pub" as a distict trend as far more recent than I'd thought -- and I'm talking of so-themed bars outside of Ireland itself. 1990s.
Mostly it's all mass production, marketing, advertising, and branding.
And yes, it's possible to trace individual names to before this era, but not as mass-produced, widely-available, internationally (or even nationally) distributed products. They served small, mostly local, markets.
While there are "differences", they all basically have to be the same by law and you probably can't reliably identify a difference in a double blinded application.
"(1) “Vodka” is neutral spirits so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color." https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/5.22
The differences are defined by a sliding scale of three elements, the "heads,hearts, and tails".
https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclopedia/198/bws/distillat...
Source: I was poor in college and had the misfortune of dancing with Karkov on more than one occasion.
For those of you who have never had the misfortune (it only comes in plastic bottles): https://www.wine-searcher.com/find/karkov+vodka+usa
typically from cutting the heads too shallow. ethanol's boiling point is 173ºF, where the alcohol that is giving you your headache is lower. cutting the heads (or lower evaporating alcohol) too shallow gives you more of that alcohol.
now, as to taste, I disagree a little bit with the gp post in that enough complex sugars also make it out in that slurry if you're using a pot still (even triple distilling), or even using a reflux still, that there can be a marked taste difference between "neutral" spirits.
source: I've made quite a lot of vodka (most of which has been turned into gin)
Let's be honest, ethanol gives you a hangover. Your body breaks it down into acetylaldehyde. Ethanol is a pretty shitty alcohol to use as an intoxicant. People have played around with making hangover-free alcohol from the higher alcohols over the years but it never went anywhere.
Can you explain that a bit? I thought alcohol is ethanol. C2H6O. And headaches in bad stuff comes from bad distilling ethanol, so different (even dangerous) byproducts like methyl alcohol can be inside that make you feel bad.
ethanol is an alcohol, but not all alcohol is ethanol.
an apple is a pome, not all pome are apples.
amyl (isobutyl carbinol: C5H12O) alcohol is also an alcohol, that has a boiling point of 131.6ºF - that means it comes in the heads (lower temperatures). methanol comes in at 148ºF.
other alcohols come in the tails, but typically have more of an oily texture to them.
coming from a language where "pomme" is the translation of "apple"... wat ?
Pomme frites -- "french fries"
Not all pomme are apples. Sometimes they're potatoes.
(Though this could be utterly irrelevant and have nothing whatsoever to do with what was intended by the GP.)
can't win them all.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-an-apple-called-a-false-fruit
E.g. a strawberry is not a berry, but a pineapple or a banana is a berry. A pepper, cucumber, pumpkin, or squash is a fruit. An apple or pear is not.
bear in mind that there are other substances that ALSO boil around 80c-90c and that fermentation of a given substance or mixture or solution of substances will be varying byproducts (from your ethanol-questing perspective...)
the sheer notion of distillation being some precise and quantized quantifiable process is likely suspect...
think of cooking, and how the ingredient list is only part of how a given dish may turn out...
My assumption here is because gin tastes good. :grin:
>(c) Class 3; gin. “Gin” is a product obtained by original distillation from mash, or by redistillation of distilled spirits, or by mixing neutral spirits, with or over juniper berries and other aromatics, or with or over extracts derived from infusions, percolations, or maceration of such materials, and includes mixtures of gin and neutral spirits. It shall derive its main characteristic flavor from juniper berries and be bottled at not less than 80° proof. Gin produced exclusively by original distillation or by redistillation may be further designated as “distilled”. “Dry gin” (London dry gin), “Geneva gin” (Hollands gin), and “Old Tom gin” (Tom gin) are types of gin known under such designations.
>i) Class 9; ... flavored vodka, ... “flavored vodka,” ... vodka, to which have been added natural flavoring materials, with or without the addition of sugar, and bottled at not less than 60° proof. The name of the predominant flavor shall appear as a part of the designation. If the finished product contains more than 2 1/2 percent by volume of wine, the kinds and precentages by volume of wine must be stated as a part of the designation, except that a flavored brandy may contain an additional 12 1/2 percent by volume of wine, without label disclosure, if the additional wine is derived from the particular fruit corresponding to the labeled flavor of the product.
their whiskey was world-class. shame they never sold any of it without blending it into their product. thankfully the distillery did after it was sold, and ended up being some amazing product.
[0]: http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_50_bullets_fired_...
To me that was quite telling.
personally, I prefer monopolowa, but it's mostly personal preference at that point - but I find the price of $19.95 is a little more palatable (wow, it was $9.95 last time I bought some!)
a column, typically a reflux still, is generally what is used, yes. it provides a much higher alcohol concentration to be extracted in one single pass. at highest efficiency, you'll get 95% alcohol as a return.
you can also make multiple (5-10) passes in a pot still to get the same purity, it's just nowhere near as efficient (because of the multiple runs).
Bottom-shelf vodka is bad, but anything above that is virtually indistinguishable.
However the difference between a $20 bottle and a $45 bottle of vodka isn't that noticeable, especially when you consider the difference between equally priced tequila, whiskey or wine.
I wonder if they’ve gotten better - or if just their marketing has.
I've heard mixed results on the reports. It's certainly removing some things, and leaving others. The results likely depend on just how bad it was when you started. But given that Brita filters aren't exactly cheap, you might have better luck just buying the $20 vodka rather than the $10 vodka.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/epis...
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/588345420
The short version is there are certain chemical compounds that some individuals can taste or have an allergic reaction to that might be present in those tails and there are measurable differences between distillers.
And the part at the end where they compare high end to other vodkas.
My ultimate point is in marketability, no vodka markets it self as "the one that gives you less of a hangover" nor do they even report the compound composition to inform of consumer choice.
The argument was that Vodkas “all basically have to be the same by law and you probably can't reliably identify a difference in a double blinded application”.
My sole point was that particular assertion wasn’t wholly accurate.
The law effectively only applies to the first two parts (heads and hearts).
The Vodka origins do not detract from my point at all. Yes many Vodkas have similar origins, but not all of them do, and so they can vary subtly in taste and effects because of the tails which do vary between different Vodkas as noted in the podcast. And yes a cheap Vodka can actually be rated higher from a subjective chemical composition standpoint. But note I never claimed that a “high end vodka” was better.
I won’t claim to be one of those people but based on that report I think it’s plausible that some or many people can tell a difference.
In short, there is a measurable chemical difference between some Vodkas and some test labs assert that those differences are where differences in taste and effects lie.
You don't even have to be "not worst". "Worst" often also means "cheapest", and there's lots of people who seek out the cheapest option.
It's well known that wine with pictures of animals on the label outsell non-animal-labelled wines by more than 2:1. This is not a particularly sophisticated market on the low end.
#1 Oregon loves micro-breweries and micro-distilleries are popping up everywhere.
#2 They are upcycling/ reclaiming a by-product.
#3 It's an innovation that favors smaller local businesses versus big business.
#4 OSU has an "Assistant Professor of Distilled Spirits"
There are plenty of other funky fermented milk drinks too: https://www.mongolia-trips.com/5-most-consumed-traditional-d...
Is this a joke? Milk vodka is very far from new. Americans claiming simultaneous invention on something they read online?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl...
I can't drink liquor because it brings out the devil in me, but my friends swear that this particular vodka is excellent.
So the question I suppose is, does the new use remove any major “con” from the item in question, shifting the cost-benefit enough to defend such quantities?
Edit: made my own Greek yogurt a couple of times, tried to sneak it into my kids smoothies, use it to soak beans, mix it with my kids milk. No dice, just really sour stuff.
From the article:
> Large, corporate-owned creameries can afford the expensive equipment that converts whey into profitable products such as protein powder. But at his family-owned, 20-cow farmstand creamery, Koch and his wife simply fed their whey into the fields through a nutrient management system.
Smaller creameries lack the capital to buy equipment to create whey powder and even if they had it, few people would buy small-brand protein powder. It is also apparently not worth shipping & selling to companies with the equipment so it ends up as an expense to dispose of it.
Converting waste to alcohol should probably be more common. Grocery stores toss out old fruit all the time, but yeast don't care whether the fruit is bad. Even if it wasn't sold for drinking, surely it would have some industrial purpose.
Brettanomyces, or wild yeast, might be able to ferment it, but there are only a few species that do it(anomalus and claussemii, according to a table from Gilliland 1961). I'd either have to special order it or just make a wild yeast starter and just see what happens.
EDIT: Saccharomyces can ferment galactose, which I think means lactase can be used to convert the lactose in milk into something that conventional yeast can eat. :D
Dang! I've got to get my hands on this!
My math:
Milk is about 5% sugar. Typically for distilling you want to get a wash of at least 10% sugar. So for this to add up milk would have to be half the price of 10 brix simple syrup, and it definitely is not. A gallon of 10 brix simple syrup would cost about 40 cents and that's if you're just buying the sugar at a grocery store. Average price of milk is over $3/gallon.
Also, you can buy enough bulk neutral spirits from MGP to fill a bottle of vodka for about 40 cents. It would take 1.6 gallons of milk to end up with that same amount vodka, and that's if your distillery ran at 100%, which it doesn't, so it'd be close to 2 gallons. (I'm comparing retail to retail prices. I don't know
Another thing i wanted to mention is that during 198x, especially during anti-alcohol campaign, when people in the USSR would be making moonshine out of everything containing anything resembling sugars (and there were shortages of real sugar, etc.) nobody used the whey for moonshine. Knowledge is power. Opposite is even more true :)
[1] https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-ed...
I'll get me coat
I think it's neat that they use yeast developed for fuel manufacturing.
Their regular product is good stuff, I have a bottle on the shelf right now.