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I also don’t understand where this is going:

> coffee growing countries only receive about 8% of the total coffee revenue

If we look at the price of, for example, white flour from the supermarket, it should be immediately obvious that grain farmers are receiving some tiny fraction of the total net value of all baked-goods / pasta / pizza / etc sold annually.

It’s not immediately obvious that this is bad or unfair.

Yes it's misleading, I suspect purposefully. The cost of green unroasted coffee cannot be compared with "global coffee revenue" ... roasting makes coffee lose 30%, then you add packaging, shipping, labor to distribute ... finally the cost of coffee cup adds in service, rent and more ... you buy a kilo of green arabica for $4 after roasting and shipping you're on $8 ... so sell a cup in a cafe let's say you make 20-100x per kilo yet cafes are still the thinnest margin business and most go bankrupt.

It's equivalent to saying the oil producing companies only get x% of global car sales. Simply, ridiculous statement.

> It's equivalent to saying the oil producing companies only get x% of global car sales.

Cars are not really made of oil, gasoline is. And this was probably not the best of examples. In most oil companies extraction/exploration (raw material) and refining (processed product) actually split the profits pretty evenly, all things considered. Marketing (gas stations) gets pretty much the breadcrumbs and relies for profit more on selling Coke and sandwiches than actual gas.

This is unlike most other cases where the raw materials are worth far less than the processed ones, and the bulk of the profit goes to the final manufacturer rather than the raw material exporter.

> I suspect purposefully

Please don't do that here. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Your comment would be just fine without that bit (and the final bit).

It's funny, if you watch a show about farmers in the US - when they talk about farm product prices you are like - huh, how is this product so CHEAP?

Seriously - the great increase in wheat prices brings it to 8 cents per pound in the US.

And my avocado whole wheat toast still costs $10-15 with taxes and tip.

> I certainly wouldn't want to buy coffee that was roasted in Ethopia; it would be awfully stale by the time it gets here.

But if Germany is the 4th largest exporter in the world as the parent comment said, apparently plenty of people have no problem buying stale coffee from them.

I see that note in the comment, but I don't understand how Germany can be a coffee exporter when they don't grow coffee there. They can only export as much coffee as they import.

This sounds like a warehousing and shipping operation to me. Calling Germany an exporter seems like calling an Amazon fulfillment center a "manufacturer" of the products they ship to customers. Or calling Sweet Maria's or Coffee Bean Corral or Happy Mug coffee "growers".

But maybe I don't understand the terminology, and I am definitely out of the loop on mass market coffee.

Actually, Tom of Sweet Maria's did try to grow his own coffee here in California, with hilarious results. Behold, Finca West Oakland:

https://legacy.sweetmarias.com/library/finca-west-oakland-gr...

Germany is a roasted coffee exporter. They import green coffee beans from developing countries and process them into various coffee products (roasted beans, ground coffee, soluble crystals). Because they are transforming a raw material through an industrial process, they end up with a new product which they sell to the world (export).

What might be confusing is Germany also re-exports green beans to other countries, at a markup. This is a much smaller % compared to the coffee products they export.

Does this clarify things?

That does, thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I was only looking at part of the picture.

The comment I was referring to was pretty explicit in saying they don't grow beans, meaning they've likely got a big chunk of their coffee economy involved in selling "stale" coffee. It's probably relatively fresh within the EU, but I've definitely seen more than my fair share of European roasted coffee thousands of miles and many shipping weeks away from the roaster.

Companies in Germany, like Switzerland, Netherlands, US etc import green coffee from around the world, roast it, mix various types and origins and qualities to produce commercial recipes that have a stable taste, then grind it and pack it in air sealed packs (as soon as possible after roasting). Being an import hub for green coffee allows the mixing, essential for commercial coffee. Coffee producing countries usually put duties on imports of green coffee to protect local production. They could import roasted coffee to then mix with local production, but that would have to be air/sealed in bulk, which i imagine is quite costly. And I suspect the market for single origin coffee is still too small to allow economically viable operations. Once roasted and sealed from the effect of air oxidation and humidity, coffee can last quite a while, certainly enough to be exported throughout the world.

I think people also underestimate the efficiency of supply chains. Not quite the same thing because of scale, but one of the best places in the US to get oysters is restaurant in Denver, CO. While Denver is not near water, it is near the center of the US and gets fresh oysters from both coasts.

I'm not sure many people are air-shipping coffee for freshness, but Germany could easily provide 'fresh' roasted coffee for anywhere in Europe.

What’s the restaurant name? I’m in Denver and love oysters

Jax Fish House downtown. I used to think it was just a localish place, but I've mentioned 'good oysters in Denver' to vendors who travel a lot and they all immediately say Jax. Admittedly, I haven't been to Jax in quite a few years since moving to the coast, but people I talk with still say it's great.

https://www.jaxfishhouse.com/lodo/

Cool, thank you! I walk by it all the time, never occurred to me that it might actually be really good.

> I certainly wouldn't want to buy coffee that was roasted in Ethopia; it would be awfully stale by the time it gets here.

Couldn't they process and export instant coffee without any problem?

Assuming they could, who would want to buy that? You do not go for high quality Ethiopian beans to then make instant coffee…

> Assuming they could, who would want to buy that?

People who want instant coffee?

> You do not go for high quality Ethiopian beans to then make instant coffee…

Ok... can you use the lower quality ones?

>> I certainly wouldn't want to buy coffee that was roasted in Ethopia; it would be awfully stale by the time it gets here.

What do you mean? Coffee gets vacuum packed and shipped all over the world already. I must have some coffee at home that was roasted and ground months ago - how is that a problem? It's just coffee.

It’s not a problem for you because you’re not a coffee snob.

You must be able to see how someone who roasts their own beans and has a preferred sourcing vendor and someone who says "it's just coffee" are basically not even interacting with the same thing at that point, right? That's right up there with "it's just a car" and "it's just a computer". It's either your thing or it isn't.

Fair enough. But I feel like 90% of coffee drinkers wouldn't see or know the difference(just looking at the packs of ground coffee at the supermarket, most of them have been roasted 4+ weeks ago or more, so I can't believe a regular customer would care). Therefore the transportation of ground coffee and its possible staleness from Ethiopia cannot be the issue, it must be something else.

Generally I agree. I don't know enough to really weigh in, but I suspect some combination of shipping logistics and trade agreements are the cause.

>I certainly wouldn't want to buy coffee that was roasted in Ethopia; it would be awfully stale by the time it gets here.

This is the play: hide the profound injustice in an offhand quip. If exporting from Germany is not a problem, why not Ethiopia?

Though, I suspect what would happen is that coffee roasted in Ethiopia would be somehow worth less than German-roasted. Ethiopians would recoup some of the profit that they're missing, but other ways would be found to shortchange them. The root of the issue is he undervaluation of Ethiopian labor and resources so as to secure profit and affordability further down the line.

> Though, I suspect what would happen is that coffee roasted in Ethiopia would be somehow worth less than German-roasted

If it was ever done, it would cost 5x or 10x more, thanks to the heavy sanctions placed on processed coffee exported from Ethiopia, but not from Germany.

As another example, I saw endless fields of palm and cocoa plantations all through West Africa. Famously Japan allows imports of raw cocoa with a 0\% tax, though they tax finished chocolate products at over 280\%. This means Africa will never be able to sell processed cocoa products there, and are forced to be content selling raw beans for a tiny fraction of what they could be sold for if processed.

Even without sanctions, even with equal infrastructure. They always find a way, not just to protect European profits, but to punish African ambition.

If you can help educate me on what I'm missing here, I would appreciate it - thanks!

Most coffee consumers are not relying on locally/home roasted beans. They buy instant, or pre-ground for use in a drip. Ethiopia is missing out on that part of the market.