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Comment by alex_young | Hacker News Reader

This is what Musk should be doing.

Let us all remember that he told the tesla factory workers to come in or take unpaid sick leave.

He has now jumped on the ventilator bandwagon. I'm sure it strikes him am as an excellent way to be considered an essential business.

His behavior during this time of crisis has not been laudable. He deserves to be thoroughly spanked.

Although, based on his history, he might try to design a “better” ventilator and when medical experts say they’re not fit for purpose he’ll go on a Twitter tantrum and call them pedophiles.

Musk thinks it’s hype https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1239756900255903744

That's an overstatement of what he said. He had been posting about possible medical treatments [1], which is why the tweet you linked to starts with "That said" before talking about panicking and redirecting medical resources away from people who need it.

Do you know why? The drug he was posting about before that tweet, `chloroquine`, is already facing shortages around the globe for people already on it for non-COVID-19 treatments, including people suffering from Lupus [2].

He probably got attacked for promoting it in previous tweets, which is the likely context of the one you linked to, and is regardless a very valid concern for a popular figure tweeting about possible treatments. I've seen others telling people to be cautious promoting it, as we don't need people also needlessly hoarding a critical drug which is quickly becoming a frontline treatment for Coronavirus.

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1239776019856461824

[2] https://twitter.com/search?q=lupus%20shortage

He also literally said "The coronavirus panic is dumb":

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528

Yeah, that's not a helpful thing to say, but the comment I'm referring to was his own direct reply to his tweet about Chloroquine (see linked tweets above).

Regarding that tweet, the only pass it was from March 6 (maybe, but probably not, best not to say anything early on). Even our Canadian gov spent the last month or so saying "there's no scientific evidence supporting border closure" [1], including in comments by our health minister a few days before they indeed closed all of Canada's borders. Nearly every person getting diagnosed w/ COVID-19 in Ontario has traveled recently, even the cases from today [2].

Nothing wrong with being wrong and later being educated on the seriousness - Elon seems to have changed his tune recently which is good. A concept that is frequently lost in our social media outrage machine. Not everyone is wise enough to not make public statements with such certainty, even our well-educated health ministers... meanwhile panic buying TP didn't do anyone any good either.

[1] https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/03/12/after-tr...

[2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus#section-0 (note: how travel + country name is next to almost every case, even well into March 18th)

Giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe the emphasis was on the "panic" part.

It doesn't seem unreasonable, even if it might be unhelpful. Most kinds of panic are dumb.

Chloroquine is already on the WHO list of 'essential medicines', and can be made very cheaply as a generic. Any shortages would be quite temporary indeed; the last thing you want to do in such circumstances is suppress latent demand for it and repeat the whole masks/respirators/hand sanitizer fiasco.

That doesn't mean much to the people with Lupus having their pharmacist tell them it's on "backorder", far less than not having hand sanitizer. One would hope it's only temporary.

On the brighter side, France has a company promising to produce millions of doses:

> French manufacturer Sanofi has said it could hypothetically offer enough doses of Plaquenil - a drug containing the molecule hydroxychloroquine - to treat up to 300,000 people if necessary.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-lab-Sanof...

Not sure what the status is on other generic pharma companies who produce it. I know Teva produces chloroquine, but not hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) which is apparently "3x more effective" with coronavirus, and is mostly based in the US (NJ). I'm sure they've all been aware of this since February at a minimum when it first made the rounds as a possible treatment.

> That doesn't mean much to the people with Lupus having their pharmacist tell them it's on "backorder"

Well, we'd have to choose between telling the people with Lupus that, and telling the folks with SARS-CoV-2 the same thing, except even worse (because suppliers have not had a chance to react to that increased demand). Are we sure that the former is preferable?

The question is typically between hoarders and people who need it, at least in the context of a popular figure tweeting about it.

It's available in many countries over the counter, so you can't be sure it will only be purchased with a predefined need.

That's just bureaucracy in the West. I have contacts in the East who got me Lariago-DS. Super cheap to manufacture, super compact, easy to ship. In fact, it's in plentiful supply. Just not in the West because you have a customs wall.

Drop the wall and you'll have your drugs in days. If you have 'backorders' for your Lupus patients, then you've already failed at something trivial to solve.

Elon Musk does not owe people anything. If he decides to produce them, that's fine, but he doesn't have to.

But the governments should buy these ventilators from private companies, so private companies like Tesla or GM were incentivized to produce these ventilators.

Edit: added and then removed a comment about downvotes

The point is not whether or not Musk owes it to anyone. But that some people claim to be making the world a better place, and others batten down and actually do make the world a better place. And usually the latter is a lot less glamorous than the former.

Making the ventilators is not the only way to make world a better place.

I consider my daytime job making the world a better place even in these dark days. But I don't work at ventilators factoy (or in hospital, or in anything directly related to coronavirus).

(Edit: clarification; cleanup)

Talking about downvoting is very taboo on HN. It's in the FAQ/guidelines.

Relax, I've had countless comments start off downvoted then turn into +30 by the end of the day. It's a silly thing to get upset about, as long as you originally commented with earnest intentions there's nothing to worry about (even being wrong, if misunderstood then try harder next time to communicate it better).

I have not found it in the FAQ/guidelines, but anyway, I have removed these notes. Thanks!

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Yeah, I'm as big of a Tesla fan as you'll find but the lack of closing the factory in one of the epicenters has really lowered my opinion of his leadership.

While I understand he's one to zig when everyone zags I feel like this will be a case where it will become clear that it was a bad call.

I guess people at the factory do few close contacts which can lead to virus transmission. And I guess they are supplied with hand sanitizers and handwashing is mandatory.

On the other hand, people get paid, the factory is saved from bankruptcy so people can continue working in the factory even after the end of the outbreak.

I'm not sure that closing the factory is a universally good decision for society.

Edit: English

Considering that the virus can live for up to 9 days on metal, glass or plastic[1] I'm not sure that mandatory hand washing is going to do much in an assembly line where everyone interacts directly vehicles on the line.

[1] https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-670...

I think they work in gloves (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/26/18744304/c... for the picture).

a factory full of people using gloves and alcohol sanitizers will spread the virus unless the people are trained and experienced in sterile technique.

I guess it will spread it significantly slower than an office, a train or a restaurant. Probably R0 < 1 in the factory.

I think the absolute risk must be low for surface transmission. Otherwise we'd just be getting our coronavirus from the grocery store and deliveries?

From what I've seen it survives 2-3x less on cardboard[1] compared to plastic/metal. Probably a vector, but less likely than hard surfaces.

That said the best way to not transmit it is to shut down non-essential services and focus on flattening the curve.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-lon...

Those numbers really don't tell you anything about how viable surface transmission is as a vector from person to person. It doesn't seem to be a major transmission pathway based on all the available evidence so far.

I wish more people could have this balanced viewpoint. Maybe it's a good decision, maybe it isn't, but the fact that there's a virus spreading shouldn't cause us to all get one-track minds all of a sudden.

People's economic situation is important to their health too, and their job is usually the biggest part of that.

Let's be fair, Elon has had plenty of accomplishments in "making the world a better place". I don't see the point of all this concentrated attention on one person as if he's the savior to every problem.

Cite some examples?

Advancements in electric transportation, solar power and battery technology for a cleaner and more sustainable energy grid. Efficient access to space leading to more commercial development including cheap worldwide broadband. 2 major corporations creating thousands of jobs and billions in market value.

- introduced easy payment decades ago (PayPal)

- reduced the cost of launching satellites significantly

- has made electric cars 'cool'

- by doing this has inspired people to take risks and be visionary

Don't get me wrong, he's certainly got his flaws, and Tesla has it's challednges cut out for them. But you have to credit him: he's made his dent, and is working on further dents as we speak.

No one is saying Musk owes people or has to do it. No one.

Parent comment says Musk "should".

Should != Must

> if you decided to downvote, please at least explain why. Because I don't believe lefts conquered the HN.

I downvoted because you assumed it was the “lefts” who were downvoting you.

Well, at least thank you for the explanation!

I'll downvote any comment that complains about downvotes. I didn't get to yours before you edited it, so no downvote from me.

Tbh, I only ever see up arrows beside a comment, Today I learned downvoting is possible.

What are the conditions on being able to downvote ?

500 >= karma I think

Thanks for your honesty, This barrier to entry just convinced me to consider looking elsewhere for moderated comments.

If there is such a high bar to moderation it pretty much means that only those with the best 'crowd appeal' will get this, and these are not the people that I consider worth listening to in most circumstances.

There's an idea of civic and social duty. The basic idea is that when one's society faces an existential crisis then those in that society with the means to help have a duty to do so. This is because the society in which they exist has provided them with a social structure that has, ideally, provided them with stability, some amount of prosperity, etc. It seems some people don't believe in this. It's sad.

This isn't about "lefts". It's about people who view their society as facing an existential crisis and believing that everyone in the society should respond to their duty. This duty may be as simple as social distancing but for those with productive means, it may mean working on vaccines, producing face masks, producing sanitary supplies, supplying food, etc.

May I add a controversial comment again please? It will be downvoted again, sadly, I'll create a new account after this thread.

People who say that Musk should use all his resources to help society, usually do nothing themselves (I'm not speaking about you personally). It's pure virtue signalling.

Elon musk can loose 10% of his money switching from producing Teslas to producing ventilators.

But everyone can use their 10% of time to help homeless, care for elders. Or at least donate 10% of their income to coronavirus charities.

But somehow people think that Musk has to spend his resoures, but they don't have to. That's not fair.

There's nothing controversial about saying some people demand from others that which they won't give themselves. The point, though, as I made in my response to yours, is that people's duty will vary by their means. Some people won't be able to do anything more in this case to help society than simple sheltering in place, some may just be able to donate a few dollars here and there but some people have the ability, because they own the capital, to make outsized impacts.

That said, it is classic whataboutism in this context. That some demand more than they will give doesn't absolve someone of their civic duty in an existential crisis.

10% of Musk's money is much less of a burden on Musk, marginal utility and all.

This might be true only for the poorest people who are starving, or for people who only spend money, not make them.

When I was younger and did not have savings, I did not care about money at all: I could spend money wherever I wanted, and it did not matter, because I could not spend more than I had. Money were worthless to me.

But now I have to save: every extra penny spent is subtracted from my future home.

But for Musk money even more valuable: I imagine the risk of loosing business is much more important than having to live in a slightly cheaper home in 20 years.

You're right, Elon has no inherent responsibility to solve this (he's not Batman to call on whenever we need). Many large companies are already open to helping. There's no shortage of willing capacity.

What they need is approval and guidance from the government, that's where the failure is. Notice there's still no reply taking up GM on their offer.

> What they need is approval and guidance from the government

I actually think these companies need orders from the governments, not just approval and guidance.

People compared coronavirus with war in this thread. AFAIK private companies made tanks and guns for money, not for free during WW2 (except for USSR).

Yes, there are special provisions during wartime, but it's unlikely we'll have that in response to a virus pandemic.

GM should just start the process of making them anyway.

There are medical equipment manufacturers better suited for this role. GM is a last resort and this is more of a symbolic gesture.

Live saving ventilators of various designs have been around a long time:

http://rc.rcjournal.com/content/56/8/1170

A ventilator that saves lives does not need to be the latest, most sophisticated technology, especially when the alternative is death.

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