Hacker News Reader

Comment by droithomme | Hacker News Reader

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than nothing we mean reasonably effective.

Going into close contact with a person who has a known transmissible respiratory illness? N95 is minimum if you are a professional. And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion.

Trying to massively reduce your risk when going out for supplies, or living with someone infected and have no other options? Surgical and homemade are vastly vastly vastly better than nothing.

Extremely antisocial, harmful, dangerous? Shaming those wearing masks.

View on HN

Here's a paper that shows that "homemade masks" made from tea cloths were reasonably effective

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

I'm using a homemade mask made from hepa filter material between two layers of dish towel material when I go out. I tie it around so it completely covers my nose and mouth and extents It will probably help if a person a few feet away coughs at me, as happened in the store today. And if I should cough, I may not infect someone else, if I am carrying.

And it may keep me from accidentally touching my face

You got a picture of your homemade mask?

I think people should be allowed to wear masks, but I think that a lot of this information, including a very full vision about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 1 year, needs to come from CDC and other major institutions.

Everyone on the ground having little ad hoc debates doesn't seem like it will converge onto a nationally organized solution. The fact that this is happening is symptomatic of the lack of leadership IMO, and so instead we're getting a disorganized cascade of businesses, institutions, mayors, and governors making ad hoc calls.

CDC and other major institutions are looking out for the many not any one individual. They don't want there to be crazy private demand for masks competing with health care professionals.

Yes, but dampening demand by spreading disinformation is incredibly dangerous. This latest paper:

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-rese...

Shows that the pandemic and associated social distancing measures may need to go on for months. How does the CDC switch messaging from saying that masks are useless to "well you should wear one now since you're going out..."

HN has users from many countries, not just America. And general advice in my country is to wear mask around. Journals share step by step tutorials on how to make them. In some cities, public transport wont allow you in without one (you can improvise with scarf or something). Some stores and pharmacies wont allow you inside without one either. Politicians in photos and personalities wear masks and I think it is to normalize masks wearing. No one here wore mask one month ago, not it is most people outside.

For me it was mind boggling when two days ago HN acted like the smart consensus was "masks do nothing, they are useless and don't wear it".

It is not just "little ad hoc debates". It is also clashing between cultures I guess. There are people down threads actively convincing others not to wear masks and implying you are uneducated if you do. Unless that side of discussion stops spreading it, people who got the "wear masks for others and yourself" advice should be allowed to state their case too.

I dont really know where "dont wear masks" meme is coming from, but it seems to be against everything I hear in my country. Person you are answering to might not be American either.

It's not a meme, it was and is official advice from many places.

E.g. WHO: "a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons." https://www.who.int/publications-detail/advice-on-the-use-of...

NPR: "the scientific evidence that 'there might be a benefit for people in the community wearing [surgical] face masks is very, very meager.'" https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/01/29/8005317...

Then there's places saying the opposite: "Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

I don't know what to think, but I've ordered some (surgical) masks.

That may be true. However, if you are a normal citizen (not a healthcare worker) and you have N95 masks, you should strongly consider donating them to healthcare providers right now

There are huge shortages of these masks in most US hospitals, even in areas with limited cases (cant speak for other coutnries but assume the same is true). HCPs are forced to either treat patients without wearing masks, guaranteeing high exposure to virus, or not care for patients

If you are sheltering in place (as you should be doing if you are healhty), N95 masks wont help you much. THey will 100% help HCPs

And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion.

I was talking to a doctor yesterday, from Silver Spring, Maryland, right outside of DC. They ran out of N95 masks some time ago and can't find any more. They're using simple surgical masks now. Complaining won't make those N95 masks appear any faster.

What they're doing now is that each week there is one dedicated doctor who deals with Covid cases. This is to prevent the entire department from getting infected.

Surgical/homemade masks are working only if everybody is wearing them and they just impede transmission from the wearer to other people around. If you are the only person wearing such mask, you might not impede infection by much.

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing.

/Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

> Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

Evidence required.

If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something.

I read a comment the other day on how many efforts are impeded by the "quest for perfection"

I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall.

Don't just think about yourself. We are young and at no real risk of dying (0.1%, whatever). But we may cause the death of other people by simply contaminating more people.

Small actions are better than doing nothing when facing exponential growth

>I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work to reduce 10% of the risks if everybody wore them, than can be the difference between a R0 of 1.1 and 1.0 - and gives great results overall.

There's a psychological component to this. If a mask reduces the chance of infection (from daily contact) from 60% (random number) to 54%, I'm not going to bother, even though in aggregate it might make a huge difference. That's just me though.

Also, I suspect half-measures like this are only effective in the early stages of the outbreak. For instance, if the viral load required for infection is 10 units (completely arbitrary), and your daily exposure is between 5 and 15, using a home-made mask that filters out 50% of viruses makes sense. However, if your daily exposure is 100 (presumably because everyone around you is infected), that 50% reduction isn't going to help you.

Your math assumes you are the only person using masks and have daily exposure.

It breaks down when people are in isolation, which many of us now are. You are not out daily, so a 50% reduction is a 50% reduction, and with luck you never accumulate enough to get sick.

If everyone wore masks, then every ones daily exposure would drop dramatically. You get 50% less intake, and infected people are emitting much less too. You have pretty much eliminated air born transmission, and can now focus on hands and eyes.

Even the N95 are not 100% proof, even if used correctly. Any barrier helps, and the claim that mask use promotes false confidence is highly dubious.

So, are condoms, they fail, can be worn improperly, etc... yet they are recommend over and over for safety reason....

Same with masks, they are not perfect, they could be miss-handled, yet they provide some degree of safety and are better than nothing.... otherwise why would health officials wear them at all?

> If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something.

That just means the mask doesn't fit well, and air is going in and out the top instead of through.

People were required by law to wear (mostly homemade; the main kind available) masks during the Spanish Flu. The link below gives an account of someone being shot by a public health officer for refusing to wear one. People took it very seriously back then as a way of preventing the spread, and it's not a bad idea for now.

https://blog.genealogybank.com/the-history-of-the-great-1918...

Homemade masks can be quite effective: http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468

Reply on news.ycombinator.com