New coronavirus stable for hours on surfaces | Hacker News Reader

New coronavirus stable for hours on surfaces

nih.gov

116 pointsvo2maxer105 comments

This isn't new information except that it's being highlighted directly by the NIH, instead of news orgs reporting on the preprint.

There also doesn't seem to be any attempt at reproduction so far. So, good information to have, but we can't take the numbers as literal and absolute -- more like a lower bound.

It also isn't necessarily sufficient for the virus surviving on surfaces to be able to infect someone. If the virus needs to find its way into your lungs to infect you, and it is part of some surface matter that doesn't aerosolize easily, then the virus surviving on surfaces may not be able to actually infect people.

I don't know that aerosolize is the problem so much as people putting their booger hooks up around their mucus membranes around their face - after touching other surfaces, that is. (edited to add that bit, since that's the important part)

People touch the surface, then their faces. Inhaled aerosols are not a significant component of how this virus spreads. Touched surfaces with viral films, and inhaled droplets, are.

This is a direct contradiction to what the CDC has been saying from the beginning, and continues to say:

> The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.

> - Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).

> - Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes.

> These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.

And:

> It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmissi...

The fact that it's not "thought to be" the main way...

Says nothing about whether it's still significant and something worth trying to avoid.

Frankly, the fact that the CDC hasn't changed the guidance also means next to nothing, because we're not collecting information about anything other than the most obvious cases. I'm not saying that the guidelines shouldn't be taken into account, nor ignored: just that they seem more likely to be of the "take two aspirin and call me in the morning" variety, i.e., common rather than informed and specific advice.

> Inhaled aerosols are not a significant component of how this virus spreads.

Not true

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/03/commentar...

That is an interesting article, but just so we are clear, he repeats exactly what I said: inhaled droplets. He then goes on to say inhalation of droplets is not historically what is referred to as “droplet transmission,” and goes on to discuss aerosols.

So... ok.

> The scientists found that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) was detectable in aerosols for up to three hours, up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel.

New rule is gonna be 48 hour quarantine for any packages.

Already has been in my house. At least one study has shown survival on steel and plastic at about a week.

Mist it with rubbing alcohol and stick it in a sunny corner for a few days.

> New rule is gonna be 48 hour quarantine for any packages.

I just wipe them down with disinfecting wipes, then wash my hands after disposing the box.

I've started wrapping shared touch surfaces (doorknobs, handles, etc) in my apartment with copper tape. It's pretty cheap ($12 for 66ft on Amazon). You do need to be careful about gripping the surfaces though, because the sharp edges in the copper foil can cause small cuts which would actually make you more susceptible to viral infection.

Why not just spray it with some alcohol occasionally ?

I think at some point we need to not make this an environmental disaster from over consumption of disposable items.

I think he is kidding.

They may not be. Copper is antimicrobial and sometimes gets used in hospitals for things like railings because it helps prevent the spread of infection.

Who would know anymore, the whole thing is getting rather silly, from hoarding food to toilet paper etc to wearing plastic bottles over your head.

It's really starting to get a bit out of hand.

> up to 24 hours on cardboard

What's concerning to me as a definite non-scientist is that cardboard is the only one of these materials that is porous and "rippable", would it be theoretically possible for the virus to go airborne if you rip up contaminated cardboard?

Interesting that the virus remains potent on plastic and stainless steel longer than cardboard. One would expect non-porous surfaces (e.g. steel) to be more "clean".

One possible reason: Cardboard absorbs moist, which is neccesary for the virus to stay active. Non-porous surfaces don't.

In addition, it was a lab experiment and from what I read, neither is it known how big the droplets were they tested with nor does anybody know how many virus particles are present in real droplets and how many might be transfered by smiring. Drying of droplets might happen faster or slower in practice, based on the environmental conditions.

And before quarantining your next package for days, just remember: Washing your hands will get rid of the virus, it doesn't travel through the skin - you would have to rub it in eyes, nose or mouth.

They're certainly easier to clean. If you use an anti-viral cleanser on copper or SS, it would presumably be more effective than on cardboard.

That's probably not long enough unless you live someplace hot and dry like Kuwait. Previous viability studies have found it stable up to 9 days. Furthermore, low temperatures and high humidity greatly increase viability for additional days. Also, fomite materials such as stainless steel extend the viability of it further.

Given the lack of specific data, two week quarantine is the practice we're using at home. Unboxing things isn't as important as mitigating the threat of insufficiently-characterized, novel pathogens that our immune systems have basically no experience with.

my process = hose the box down with lysol, let it dry. move into the basement, let it sit for 5 days, then open

There's a referenced journal article on the Coronavirus Wikipedia page [0] that says other coronaviruses can survive up to 9 days [1]. Can anyone corroborate?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pa...

[1] https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-670...

Government: cough into your elbow

Also Government: elbow bump instead of handshake

There seems to be a lot of contradicting stuff out there (and perhaps some "feel like you're doing something" stuff too). It'll take a lot of time before a consensus is actually reached.

Contaminated hands are much more dangerous than contaminated elbows because people frequently touch their face with their hands.

If I contaminate my elbow then rub it against you, then you are now carrying and spreading the virus. If you touch your elbow at any time, you are now at risk of infection (let alone if you actually cough into your elbow).

Great, now I have to also stop scratching my face with my elbows.

Couldn't imagine my inability to lick my elbow would come in handy some day.

Your article [1] is more or less a review from what was known before Covid-19. It feels like a "worst case to expect".

OP's article is really about Covid-19, having been tested on some specific surfaces.

In yesterday's update #15 on corona with Prof Christian Drosten [1] he is asked about this study and voices scepticism regarding its reliability.

They publish a transcript for every episode. For this one it isn't available yet. Otherwise I'd c/p the section.

1: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/15-Infizierte-werden-off...

it was covered in episode #14:

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/coronaskript128.pdf

(page 2 of 5)

Does anyone have a good explanation for the statistics of these types of data.

For instance, I've heard keep six feet away. However, I assume six feet is the distance where the chance of contracting is <0.1%, at five feet it is 1%, etc. etc. Nothing is black and white.

Is the chance of contracting it from a surface meaningful? Or simply the equivalent to "it is possible to catch it from someone 15 feet away even if extremely slim"

I don't have stats or references, but I heard on a pretty reputable podcast a couple of days ago that physical contact appears to be the biggest single vector for SARS-CoV-2. Hence the huge emphasis on hand washing.

And here I thought that hand washing was recommended like crazy to prevent people from getting the virus into their mouth, eyes and nose. The lack of accurate information is maddening.

I think that's what the grandparent is referring to: "physical contact" as opposed to "in aerosols". I don't think they meant actual physical contact with infected people.

Yes - that's what I mean. Virus gets onto hands via touching objects & surfaces, and from there to face.

Also (to be fair) if you want to increase your chances of getting accurate info you probably need to go to more credentialled sources than some random guy reporting on an unnamed podcast in an HN comment ;)

What makes you think that isn’t accurate?

Six feet comes from the settling distance curves for droplets of different sizes. There may well be a hard cutoff where the probability is negligible under normal circumstances.

It can transmit between people much farther. The bus study that used cctv footage was further apart than five meters.

Is that with a sneeze propellant or just normal suspension from carriers breathing?

Sneeze, although it’s got a long tail (approx 30 ft, which is ridiculous).

Yikes. Say you buy a box of cereal from the store... is there any good way to disinfect it, or just let it sit in the garage for a few days?

We've just be quarantining packages. They get shoveled into the garage and sit there for at least 3 days before opening. Seems like a pretty small convenience hit to stay safe.

We quarantine packages as well, although I've read that the SARS2 only lasts for about an hour on cardboard.

I've seen 24 hours on cardboard[1]

The best appears to be copper, which is 4 hours[1] which is why I bought some copper tape online and wrapped shared touch surfaces in my apartment with it (though be careful to avoid getting cuts when you grip it).

1. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/8116090...

Ah, thanks for the info!

I've been:

1. Opening cereal/cracker/other boxes with gloves on, taking out the bag inside the box, and recycling the box. I figure the interior bag hasn't been touched in days, typically, if it was ever touched by human hands.

2. For other things, like bread, I've been moving the bread into clean ziploc bags.

3. Washing things like Apples and plastic milk jugs with soap and water.

Feels pretty paranoid but seems to make sense right now.

For some reason lately, the title of that book keeps popping into my head: "Only the Paranoid Survive".

Sure, except the mortality rate is nowhere near 100% and you will likely acquire the virus or it’s descendants at some point unless you continue washing your cereal boxes forever.

I don't think there is an easy way to disinfect it, maybe wipe it down with some lysol wipes if you have some. I guess your best bet is to just wash your hands thoroughly after going grocery shopping, and before and after eating.

I'll only buy food that is in containers and clean the containers with a cloth with soapy water. Hopefully, soapy water is suitable. If I'm lucky I'll be able to get methylated spirit in the grocery store to make methylated spirit 70%. This concentration is mentioned in [1]. I could then fill up the empty bottles of surface disinfection spray that I've collected in the last year.

[1] https://www.pphsn.net/Activities/PICNet/SECTION_7.pdf , page 101

Things that can tolerate it without getting ruined/spoiled will sanitize much quicker in direct sunlight.

I made one last trip to the grocery store on Friday. Wiped the handle and bottom of the cart, but I'm just crossing my fingers that the items I bought were safe. Included lots of individual fruits, so not really feasible to sterilize. I'm in Texas, so hopefully it wasn't prevalent enough yet. Not sure what I'll do when I have to make another trip in a couple weeks if we're still in quarantine.

>Not sure what I'll do when I have to make another trip in a couple weeks if we're still in quarantine.

Maybe we can develop good ideas? What about these ideas:

* Vitamin/mineral pills

* fruit juice / pureed fruit/vegetables (for secondary plant substances)

* Visiting the grocery store when few customers are there

* Apply cream to your hands. I always wash my hands often. They can become dry and tiny wounds occur. If lemon juice hurts your hands then it's bad. Germs can get into the tiny wounds.

* Additionally, wear plastic gloves.

> * Visiting the grocery store when few customers are there

This is becoming hard with a lot of grocery stores reducing their hours now. Our local store is only open 8-8 vs 24hours normally; I'd love to go around 10 or 11pm like we normally do.

wash the fruits with a little bit of dish soap, soap is enough to disrupt the virus.

I wonder how well sunlight works?

Most disinfectants only claim to work on hard, non-porous surfaces.

Yikes this is horrifying.

I'm currently quarantining a family member in my guest room, whom I don't know if they have a common cold or not. I'm wondering if just letting my ozone machine (5,000mg/hr) run after they're done in shared rooms, such as the bathroom etc. — unoccupied of course— would be enough to keep things sanitized.

This is all incredibly stressing.

If fever+cough, be very careful.

If runny nose, then more likely to be common cold.

One way to disinfect is put disinfectant/alcohol in a spray bottle and spray places where the virus is likely to be.

Another way is to put a simple mask on the sick person.

It depends. If it’s a child, runny nose can be a symptom:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/children-f...

Do you have a ducted A/C system?

I do not, no A/C, just a central gas heater in the living room. We're both in our early 30s and decided that staying with me was less risky than possibly infecting older family members in the other household.

I feel fine so far, and the other person feels like they have a cold. Runny nose, mild cough due to throat irritation, no apparent fever.

Realistically, everyone in the house with an infected person is going to catch it. You’re breathing the same air if nothing else.

COVID-19 CDC guidelines recommend droplet precautions[0], which means that the disease doesn't spread via the air. It spreads via droplets when you cough/sneeze. It's still bad, but it does mean that sharing air isn't a hazard by default.

If it was airborne, they would recommend different precautions[1].

[0]: https://www.who.int/csr/disease/coronavirus_infections/preve...

[1]: http://www.wikidifference.com/difference-between-airborne-an...

Update: It's a weird hybrid and airborne precautions are probably a good idea anyway.

Yeah it spreads by breathing in air up to three hours. Read this study. Droplets as well. Washing hands is critical but so is proper mask that is fit.

Surprisingly not. This virus is acting really strange.

> The household secondary attack rate was 15%

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20028423v...

That’s a perfectly normal secondary attack rate, in line with both flu and H1N1. Why do you say that it’s acting strange?

You could set up some fans to exhaust from the room and create negative air pressure.

Didn't some study recently say that in China a key practice for containment was removing infected family members from households and placing them in quarantine?

I'm a little skeptical of self-isolating in a home with other people. You're all in it together at that point.

I'm not sure "everyone in the house will catch it", but probably everyone will be exposed.

Aren't most viruses stable for hours on surfaces?

Ugh, this is the type of story that makes me want to run around with Purell or something similar and clean everything like Sheldon does.

What if I touch my keyboard with dirty hands... it's not like I never type?

Time to clean the mouse and keyboard ;)

What about Purell gloves? Would that be possible? We’d all sort of be cleaning everything everywhere if it was possible (the disinfectant would have be to be kind of dry or dry quickly, while still letting you grip).

I thought about this too. Imagine a glove that had thousands of micro pores (like your skin) that would secrete a tiny droplet of Purell. But not enough to be wet. Just enough to create a layer of evaporating sanitizer between the glove and the surface. Possibly pressure activated so it's not secreting all the time.

And just to add to the brainstorm, just googled some ‘dry disinfectant spray’. Now I’m not saying make a full on Iron Man glove, but a pressure activated release of the spray could keep things dry. Plus we’d essentially be distributing the job of cleaning everything to everyone.

Or maybe it’s finally time for self disinfecting door knobs/faucets/lights/buttons.

i trust that you're aware the soap is more effective and efficient at destroying the virus than alchohol at the concentrations found in e.g. Purell ?

... and smartphone.

tablet.. the list goes on.

But yes, you are correct.

254NM UVC light lamps might be a good solution for packaging.

Make sure they are made by a reputable manufacturer, and that you get them from a reputable distributor that tests for proper maximum UVC efficiency.

I'm curious about the intensity and length of time needed to break down viruses with this light. Just wondering if there's some a possibility to use a "light bomb" to sanitize a room--set a light on a pole in the middle of the room. Leave the room and close the door, then trigger it for some length of time. Just an idle musing I had.

We literally do this for hospital rooms. There are uv devices that the cleaners bring in and turn on for 30-45 min.

So good idea!

This is exactly one method hospitals use to sanitize rooms.

> Make sure they are made by a reputable manufacturer, and that you get them from a reputable distributor...

Any recommendations? I'm guessing Amazon isn't the place to find them right now since I'm not seeing much. Google found a few, but some have shady/low-effort websites.

Also, be careful and wear sunglasses and long-sleeve clothing and pants.

You can easily burn your skin or eyes.

Curious, what's special about 254 nm? Is that a proven effective wavelength for killing bacteria/viruses for some reason?

Was wondering if places like Amazon considered adding UV lamps into the process to reduce contamination potential.

254 nm is the emission peak of a low-pressure mercury lamp. Anything in that range will have a germicidal effect, but this happens to be a cheap and effective way of generating UV.

I've got that in my main furnace duct and with two portable air purifier/filter machines.

"In the stability study the two viruses behaved similarly, which unfortunately fails to explain why COVID-19 has become a much larger outbreak."

I am hoping that the similarity extends to SARS v1's sensitivity to temperature.

I have a chlorine-based swimming pool. Should I live on my swimming pool?

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic from the amount of paranoid questions being asked here).

>(Yes, I'm being sarcastic from the amount of paranoid questions being asked here).

to what purpose? to deride the cautious, or the panicked?

What's paranoid at this stage? There's a virus that spreads rapidly killing people around the world.

Do you have some guidelines for us un-informed to easily sift through the paranoia like you can?

(now THAT is sarcasm)

Someone should really rethink the gas pump handle in light of recent events.

Make it copper? Or how about a UV light shining on it when it’s hung up.

I hope I get it soon just to get it over with.

you probably will, or already have. about half of Diamond Princess cruise ship passengers tested positive but were asymptomatic.

edit: of course that could have been the latent period at the beginning - not saying they all /stayed/ asymptomatic, just that it may already have arrived.

Anecdotal evidence shows that you can get reinfected.

There's a couple ways that 'reinfection' could be reported right?

- The test may have had a false negative

- The viral load was low due to anti-virals, and subsequently re-surged once off them

- The person has a compromised immune system and cannot form proper immunity.

SARS immunity was short-lived. Less than one year. Even in healthy individuals.

That's unfortunate. I did not know that

would a few hours in the oven at 150 work to sanitize a package? (assuming the contents can tolerate that, and i don't burn down my house with the cardboard igniting)

How much chlorine is required to kill it in water?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15847934

That is SARS-CoV, not SARS-CoV-2.

Anything newer than 15 years ago?

"Up to 24 hours on cardboard" - makes me wonder what the likelihood is of mail and package delivery being shut down soon?

Not likely, as it's a lot easier to do some basics like take a temp of your delivery people at the beginning/end of their shifts. And there's only one person, so you could do some contact tracing if you were some kind of modern country - unlike those unable to test hardly anyone.

So it seems a bit better than a free for all at the supermarket?

I just got the mail, with gloves, and left it in the garage. Same thing with an Amazon package yesterday.

You're not the only one leaving stuff in the garage. but for some of the big-ticket items or food items I have doused the box in Lysol spray and let it sit for 10 minutes and then opened it.

but I read somewhere that the half-life of this thing in direct sunlight is 2.5 minutes so after an hour or so it's pretty much gone if that's true.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com