How to get your money back on a non-refundable hotel | Hacker News Reader

How to get your money back on a non-refundable hotel

philip.greenspun.com

116 pointsnotlukesky82 comments

A friend just called up and said, “I feel totally fine, but I have to let you know I am from Kirkland and I live about half a mile from the care home with the COVID-19 outbreak. I am completely happy to come to the hotel and hang out with your guests in the bar, or you could cancel my reservation and I’ll stay home.”

They refunded him in full.

I'd worry about getting slapped with a bioterrorism charge.

Bio-extortion, at most...

I hope you are joking...

"Refund my money or I will expose you and your guests to a deadly virus"

I feel like pointing out cause and effect isn't a threat unless you're trying to play victim to it.

* "If you run around the pool, you may slip and fall."

* "If you charge me for this stay, I will use it, and that may expose your guests to a virus."

i met my non-refundable hotel half way and just asked for credits for a future stay there. they were happy to do that and gave me a 2 year expiration.

I see a lot of law on Force Majeure being clarified over the next 12 months: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure

Or Frustrated Contract Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_of_purpose

And it's not just for businesses to use against consumers.

Kind of related, but our daycare just shutdown for more than a month and asked us to keep paying monthly tuition. It makes sense, the daycare workers still need to live, but it feels kind of weird in that we have to have this burden on our own since a lot of us are affected also.

Is it the kind of place if you can't pay for a month they would keep watching your kid? (serious question)

If it isn't, then you should cancel the monthly. It's pretty simple.

But good luck getting back in when they reopen. The waitlist was brutal before, and now you're on the bottom of it.

If you don’t pay, you lose your place in line and there is usually a waiting list (though with the upcoming recession, those might go away). You also don’t endear yourself with the staff if you don’t plan on switching.

It’s a business relationship at the heart of it. If my business associates can’t provide the service I’ve contracted for, that doesn’t endear me to them, either.

Except these are people taking care of your kids during the day, it isn’t that simple.

Not when they’re shut down. Requiring a full tuition payment because “wouldn’t it be a shame if you lost your spot...” is extortionate.

Well, you stopped being a client. I don't find it all that strange.

They are stopping the service. Continuing to pay is a bit crazy. Just check what it sounds like if they write out the quid pro quo:

"Keep paying us for the service we aren't giving you or else we'll blacklist you when service resumes."

I don't think you'll get a lot of people signing up for that.

The other risk than losing your spot is paying them and they go out of business anyway. So you're out both the cash and the service.

Or, we could all be kind to each other.

That is not a very practical or realistic solution. Humans are going to human - for better or worse.

You're right, we shouldn't even bother trying to be kind. /s

I don't accept your assertion that it's not practical or realistic. People have been doing it for thousands of years, and will -- and should continue to do so. Just because it's hard, just because it doesn't directly benefit you, doesn't mean it should be abandoned.

Do you think putting your kids in daycare will be a popular choice going forward? There will be plenty of spaces for a while after this ends.

People generally don’t choose daycare. It’s a requirement because they have to work.

Just FYI, if you're lying to get out of paying for something, or to get reimbursed on false pretenses that is called fraud and is illegal. It's also wrong to do, it is an action taken in bad faith.

> it is an action taken in bad faith

So is a hotel denying you a refund during an epidemic. There is an obvious power differential here between Joe Blow and some billion dollar hotel chain. You need the money for basic survival far more than they need it to pad their quarterly earnings.

By booking a non-refundable rate, which is generally cheaper, you took that risk. So long as the hotel is open, it's not really their problem. The fact that they have more money than you doesn't give you the right to steal from them.

If you really need the money for basic survival, fine, we can argue about the morality of it. But even with a possible recession looming, it's unlikely that the price of a hotel stay is going to be the difference between life and death for you.

It's unlikely you are in basic survival mode yet, unless you've already lost your job and are living paycheck to paycheck and there are no available government programs to help you right now and no friends or family to turn to.

Nonrefundable rates are not marketed as a bet against global catastrophe. They're a commitment that you won't change your mind.

This epidemic is more similar to the hotel burning down. I would expect my money back in that scenario and do whatever I could to retrieve it.

No, they are marketed as "non-refundable." As in, you don't come, you don't get a refund. End of story.

With that said, many hotel chains and airlines have suspended their typical non-refundable rules, so a simple phone call would likely suffice.

You had to explain what “non-refundable” should be interpreted as. I think we can agree different people will have different interpretations.

I’d also expect any terms in the actual ToS defining “non-refundble” to get void in front of a judge in this specific cases if this was really pushed that far.

I don't think you understand what "bad faith" means. Bad faith refers to signalling that they will act in one way without any intention of following through.

When a non-refundable booking is made, both sides understand that the correct way to follow through is to not have a refund, should circumstances (not caused by the hotel) arise where the customer could not end up staying in the hotel. Hence there was no bad faith on the part of the hotel.

Needing the money more doesn't change the agreement.

Not all policies are fair and there should be exceptions during times of crisis. Hotels do questionable advertising practices all the time to lure in customers and then hit them with arbitrary fees during checkout which seems like bad faith to me.

This is the "two wrongs" argument. They do bad things so we should be able to do bad things back.

Pointing out the type of argument doesn't negate that argument. While I don't think it's ok to simply commit fraud because I think the company is committing general fraud in most areas... If someone runs up and steals my phone but drops their own, I'll be keeping their phone until they make things right.

The same goes especially for multi-billion dollar corporations.

You cheat me out of something, I will first attempt to right that wrong through the proper channels. If I am unsuccessful, I will right that wrong through unofficial channels. Within reason, of course.

Hotels do so but whether this specific hotel is guilty is another question.

How is it fair for the hotel to pay for the consumer's gamble in booking a non-refundable room?

They just got unlucky and they should suck it up.

If the hotel has to refund everyone, it will either have to go under, or if it is too big to fail, be bailed out with my money.

I don't see why I should pay for someone's else gamble.

Nobody prices in a once in a century, global pandemic when looking for a hotel room: not the customer and not the hotel. If the room was booked more than 3 months ago, the agreement was based on false information and should be able to be renegotiated in light of the current state of the world.

OT but I wish we would stop refering to this as a once-in-a-century event. It appeared from a combo of coincidences that can reproduce very easily in the years and decades to come.

That's not how the adult world works. Sorry.

You say it's not, but it actually is. Many hospitality industries are allowing coronavirus related exceptions to their cancellation and refund policies.

That's right, in this real actual adult world.

> Many hospitality industries are allowing coronavirus related exceptions to their cancellation and refund policies.

Mostly out of goodwill and fear of lawsuits, I think.

Smaller boutique hotels are probably less likely to allow coronavirus-related exceptions, because they're deprived of business as it is.

That might benefit them in the short term but could hurt them in the long term if more cases break out because of contaminated customers and have to close the entire building down.

Acting out of fear of lawsuits is also how the adult world works.

It is, force majeure is a legal concept in many jurisdictions and was not invented by toddlers.

Is wrong to do?

That's a question of morality. Canceling a hotel stay by giving them an acceptable reason doesn't feel wrong to me. They can use that reason to claim government to rebuild money after all of this.

Lying is a legal sense is very different to just lying or not telling the truth. Not sure many judges would side with the hotel. Not sure the hotel could prove bad faith. I'm very sure the cost of a suit would be higher than the cost of the refund.

This is also why some hotels have draconian-seeming policies, requiring all sorts of documentation. Because without them, some people will lie.

Thank you so much for this information. I'll be sure to do whatever I can to continue bleeding money on pointless expenses after I get laid off instead of doing what I can to get by.

Maybe. But they would have to sue you; a PR suicide.

The Hacker News "hackers" have no moral compass, especially when it's "the little guy" vs a "corporation" of any sort.

This. A contract is a contract. If all people around you stop respecting their contracts, where will you be ?

It doesn’t really matter. With this simplistic view the hotel is breaching the contract. There is a mutuality of obligation. If the customer is obligated to pay for a room then the hotel is obligated to provide the service.

If that is so then you should make your point without having to create a false story.

reminds me of https://old.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/comments/dk9go7...

This sounds like a joke more than a true anecdote. Why would a hotel ask for a reason for an extension?

I wouldn't discount it outright. Definitely plausible - extending your stay during this time period is weird for sure. Or you could just simply slip in the detail specifically.

Yup you could definitely add it in "special requests" asking whether it's okay if you did this.

Probably because he just asked for a refund, now he's asking for an extension

Hotels usually have a more flexible cancellation policy than Airbnb.Its way easier to find cancellation up to one day before at hotels than an Airbnb in the same city.

Was supposed to travel to Spain last week. Had a few Airbnbs booked. When the cases started spiking on the 2nd of March it looked like Spain was going to be another Italy. So we cancelled our trip. Got most of our flight tickets & hostel stay money back. Airbnb returned 50%. Spain did become like Italy was on the 2nd of March.

You might want to double check with Airbnb because they have put in place a special policy related to covid-19. I am airbnb host, we had someone scheduled for next week. They cancelled and they got a full refund including the airbnb service fees, even though we are normally on strict cancellation policy (50%). They also changed the way cancellations work from the host side, we can cancel without penalty and without loosing superhost status.

Or you can just ask. I emailed asking for a refund, citing corona, the (pre-paid, non-refundable) hotel I was going to stay at for SXSW and they refunded me the entire sum. Very impressed, and I'm sure preferable to credit card charge backs.

I’m from Wuhan, I’d like to use your facilities.

A friend's fiance literally can't come to the states to join him because she's from Wuhan (though she lived in Shenzen). I imagine a lot of people are having their major plans disrupted like this.

That being said this post was hilarious and I sent it to everyone :D

I'd be very surprised if there was one ounce of truth to this. I've worked implementing payment systems for large institutions. It's standard for the existing balance of the transaction to be taken into account when an amendment is made to a purchase that has yet to be settled.

Example: You purchase $100 worth of widgets, process the payment then 5 minutes later call up and add another $100 of widgets to your order prior to the order being shipped. Your original purchase won't get refunded. Your order will be amended and you'll be charged another $100 to settle the outstanding amount. I'd be a little surprised if something as sophisticated as a hotel booking system didn't implement a basic account ledger.

What does all that have to do with the story?

The hotel supposedly cancelled his 3 day reservation because they don't want him staying there at all if he might have corona virus.

The 10 day extension was just a request to add credence to the story.

The point is that he's implying to the hotel that he is carrying the virus, and therefore they don't want him there, so they refunded his original booking.

Ha, I guess I missed the joke.

Just canceled a trip to California and the reverse of this was a very real concern. Popping positive in Cali and having no place to stay...

It is a bit surprising that the hotel would not reimburse given the global state of affairs.

In a couple of months hotels are going to be going bankrupt left and right. Many hotels are owned by franchisees. The difference between losing your business and scraping by might be dictated by how well you minimize your losses right now. Goodwill won't be worth squat when you're out of business.

Most global hotel chains like Marriott etc have waived their refund policies. It's the small indie ones that may not budge.

This could easily fail if they do not ask the reason for your extension.

Just have to play it right. Slip in some details, get curious about what food you can order to your room, etc. You can always decide some detail is a deal breaker & not make the close

Or just be explicit and share. "Hi, I need to extend my stay from 3 nights to 2 weeks. I'm just returning from a high risk area of Italy and need to quarantine myself!"

"and I want to do it somewhere with a gym and pool"

Sounds like the original person intended on actually staying at the hotel for two weeks after failing to get their reservation cancelled, and was pleasantly surprised by the result. But yes, probably not easily replicable.

Many hotels in fact did reject refunds due to coronavirus cancellations including that of Jason Lemkin and the canceled Saastr conference.

TLDR: Use the excuse you returned from Italy and need an extension of several days to self quarantine.

It might work now, but maybe not when hotels start catching on and requiring proof.

Honestly these hotels are probably losing so much money right now that they’d gladly take a covid patient.

There's an idea there, what if we turned empty hotel rooms into covid-19 care facilities? Then you can isolate a good number of infected in one place that you can keep an eye on.

The governors of Washington and (I think) California are literally doing that.

Life hack: avoid paying for things by stealing them

Unfortunately, if you chose and booked a non-refundable hotel on any website then "non-refundable" means just that. People often have the choice to booked the cheaper non-refundable deal, or often a slightly higher priced one offering Free Cancellation up until a specific time and date before arrival. Yes, it was obviously a mistake that you didnt see/notice or read the bit about it being non-refundable. Their Terms and Conditions will be very clear about non-refundable and its meaning.

You can cancel it if you wish, but you will not receive a refund. I think its the hotels themselves who set the rules for their hotels deals, either non-refundable or Free Cancellation.

I love that hack! Very clever

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