Germany and US wrestle over coronavirus vaccine: report | Hacker News Reader

Germany and US wrestle over coronavirus vaccine: report

dw.com

52 pointsTenoke39 comments

"Trump was doing everything he could to secure a vaccine for the United States, "but only for the US," the newspaper quoted an anonymous German government source as saying."

One related Tweet which goes around: https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/123908864178962841...

I personally first saw it in this tweet translating the Welt article[0] and after looking into it other sources seem to agree.

For what is worth, in Germany's case, in particular, there is very little concern with them not sharing the vaccine, but I can see how the US might think it can profit by having exclusive rights to it initially..

0. https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1239117898901266432

Who do you mean by saying 'the US', when it comes to have exclusivity in profiting? Of course the US as a country has an interest in pushing development of vaccine in any possible way.

This isn't pushing development, this sounds like jumping in near the end of development and waving a chequebook to obtain the vaccine for sole use. Probably to sell it to the rich at a huge cost and then eventually make it free or low cost for other countries. Essentially price gouging at a massive scale.

I can't. Any businessman/profiteer that thinks IP rights are going to be maintained in this case is a moron. Trying to secure exclusivity in this case is obviously futile.

This is almost certainly about securing a supply of doses, which well duh. Any government voluntarily putting itself at the back of that line will be overthrown immediately.

Unfortunately, the businessman involved is a moron.

I would upvote this if I felt the source were reliable enough. Is Welt.de a well-regarded source?

It is. It’s the nationwide conservative quality newspaper in Germany that regularly conducts investigative journalism.

For whatever its worth, the Guardian picked the story too:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/15/trump-offers...

It isn't. It's the big brother of the tabloid 'Bild', from the same publisher, rephrasing typical right-wing populism and fear-mongering for readers who like to think they are intellectuals.

I think it is reliable. Many German journalists report about that topic, e.g. Tagesschau: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/corona-impfstoff-deutschlan...

I don't think dw would publish articles without a reliable source. Also welt.de is the online-presence of "Die Welt" (the world in english), which is a major german newspaper. I would say that it's not known for world-class journalistic results and major breakthrough investigative journalistic pieces, but it's still a reliable, conservative newspaper that does solid journalistic work.

I think this story is blowing up due to the distinction between "exclusive supply of XXX million doses" and "exclusive IP rights".

The former is something I expect every government to be trying to do.

The latter, which seems to be the common interpretation of this story, is so unbelievable that I can't believe it. It doesn't even make sense, there's zero chance of such a business strategy even working. I doubt there is a single government on the planet that would enforce or respect a patent in this case if the price or supply of this vaccine is constrained in any way.

Yup. Totally agree.

CEO Dan Menichella was already kicked out 4 days ago:

https://www.curevac.com/news/company-founder-ingmar-hoerr-su...

The timeline of their press releases is interesting, to say the least:

https://www.curevac.com//news

03-03-2020

CureVac CEO Daniel Menichella Discusses Coronavirus Vaccine Development with U.S. President Donald Trump and Members of Coronavirus Task Force

03-11-2020

Company Founder Ingmar Hoerr Succeeds Daniel Menichella as CEO of CureVac AG

03-15-2020

CureVac focuses on the development of mRNA-based coronavirus vaccine to protect people worldwide

That's sending a shiver down my spine. You rarely see something that so succinctly summarizes what's wrong with this world and how there's still hope. Trump is the closest this civilization got to an antisocial, bat shit crazy, Bond style super villain since that infamous Austrian fellow from the 30s. I'm asking where is Batman when you need him?

I'm wondering what the Americans think about that and if it will be covered in American media.

As someone who was born and raised in America, the idea of a making a vaccine exclusive to the U.S. is morally repugnant, disgusting and outrageous. I hope that this doesn't come to be in this way. Any vaccine developed for COVID-19 should be free and shared with everyone regardless of income or geographical location. That is the only sane and compassionate thing to do. I hope more details emerge about this.

The Guardian (British): "This is the case for Moderna and another Boston company, CureVac, both of which are building Covid-19 vaccines out of messenger RNA." So now it's a Boston company? According to Wikipedia the one in Boston is just a subsidiary.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/when-will-a-co...

American response: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/world/europe/cornonavirus...

CureVac press release: https://www.curevac.com/news/curevac-focuses-on-the-developm...

"...rejects allegations about offers for acquisition of the company or its technology."

However: `Germany’s Health Ministry confirmed a report in newspaper Welt am Sonntag, which said President Donald Trump had offered funds to lure the company CureVac to the United States. Contacted by Reuters, a spokeswoman for the German Health Ministry said: “We confirm the report in the Welt am Sonntag.”`

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/15/coronavirus-germany-tries-to...

That is a different thing then what was alleged in this article (that the Americans were trying to produce a vaccine only for the US).

By the way, the trick with anonymous sources is to always see who is actually quoted in the article, and assume that the anonymous source is what the real source wants to say, but doesn't obviously want to say it. In this case:

Karl Lauterbach, a professor of health economics and epidemiology who is also a senior lawmaker with the Social Democrats, junior partners in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition, tweeted in reaction to the Welt am Sonntag report:

“The exclusive sale of a possible vaccine to the USA must be prevented by all means. Capitalism has limits.”

The article says: `Welt am Sonntag quoted an unidentified German government source as saying Trump was trying to secure the scientists’ work exclusively, and would do anything to get a vaccine for the United States, “but only for the United States.”` as well as `Contacted by Reuters, a spokeswoman for the German Health Ministry said: “We confirm the report in the Welt am Sonntag.”`

So the question is: What does `only for the United States` mean exactly?

If you go look at the report, the report only references that the US was in talks to fund vaccines, not the "only for the US" part.

You mean the report by "Welt am Sonntag"? They say `Der Grund: US-Präsident Donald Trump versucht offenbar [...] das Medikament exklusiv für sein Land zu sichern. Das erfuhr WELT AM SONNTAG aus deutschen Regierungskreisen.`

Translated: US president Donald Trump tried to safeguard the medication exclusively for his country. WELT AM SONNTAG got this information from government sources.

No I mean the confirmation.

So I guess it's mere coincidence the CEO left 4 days ago

https://www.curevac.com/news/company-founder-ingmar-hoerr-su...

FWIW, the substance of this article has been confirmed, on the record, by the German Health Ministry.[1]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-german...

I'm not sure if I really have and know all the details. But if the goal really is to silo a vaccine then complying with this offer should be considered high treason against the German state, the EU and basically the rest of the world. It's the politicians duty to draw here a clear red line and to enforce it with any means necessary.

$1B is too low. They have $360M of VC capital alone. Also: selling a vaccine against Corona (or some licensing deal) will make them A LOT more money than $1B.

this kind of fear mongering and panic is absolutely par for the course with any panic. More often then not it leads to racism, hatred and death. Usually it’s the Jews or the Russians, the masons or some powerful sneaky conspiracy that had the cure and won’t allow anyone else to have it.

It sounds like the FDA is trying to fund a vaccine, maybe by a acquisition (but this article isn’t clear) or by a ton of money with a distribution agreement. It sounds like someone is afraid that means the US is going to kill them by denying access and decided to make a scary anonymous claim. (Which is totally unsubstantiated in the document)

Let’s wait for the Facts before going to pitchforks, fires and racial minorities being strung up, shall we?

This is the exact same kind of conspiracy theory people were saying about this being a weaponized virus the Chinese leaked or the Iranians claiming that the US army sprayed this virus Qom to kill the faithful.

A good trick to deal with anonymous sources is to see who else is also quoted in the same articles or related article about the topic, and then assume they are the author, who just doesn't want to be seen being partisan or bending the truth.

"Karl Lauterbach, a professor of health economics and epidemiology who is also a senior lawmaker with the Social Democrats, junior partners in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition, tweeted in reaction to the Welt am Sonntag report:

"The exclusive sale of a possible vaccine to the USA must be prevented by all means. Capitalism has limits"

From what I understand Karl is one of the backers of a move to a single payer system, and the elimination of private insurance in Germany - Bürgerversicherung. So I suspect what happened here is that the US is investing a huge amount of money into vaccines (which they should be doing), as well as making sure there is capacity for producing that vaccine (which they should also do), and a socialist in Germany got worried that there will not be any for them, unless their government has ownership and gave the wire a good anonymous sound bite.

What about straight from the company itself?

03.03 CureVac CEO meets Trump [0]

03.11 CureVac removes the CEO [1]

03.15 CureVac denies the american buyout news [2]

[0] https://www.curevac.com/news/curevac-ceo-daniel-menichella-b...

[1] https://www.curevac.com/news/company-founder-ingmar-hoerr-su...

[2] https://www.curevac.com/news/curevac-focuses-on-the-developm...

They denied it, did they not?

No, they did not deny it. What they said is that they won't be bought. They did not deny that the Trump administration tried to get exclusive access.

This likely sounds like a conspiracy. I've been wondering if any country would be bold enough to make a powerplay to seize control over something amidst the rampage of this virus. For any psychopath, this seems like a great time to get ahead economically or detriment other countries in some form. I don't see Trump seizing control over a possible vaccine as something that'll benefit the rest of the world, either, without a hefty pricetag.

I think it’s unlikely. We have a lot of disagreements, but I don’t think world leaders are psychopaths, even including Putin/Trump/Xi.

It's possible, the black death didn't stop politics in the 14th century.

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