ACLU sues Homeland Security over airport face recognition program secrecy | Hacker News Reader

ACLU sues Homeland Security over airport face recognition program secrecy

techcrunch.com

431 pointsajaviaad44 comments

> The ACLU said that its recent Freedom of Information Act request to better understand the system has been ignored. Now it’s suing to ask a judge to turn over the documents.

I'm not certain, but it seems like the government ignoring FOIA requests has been an ongoing problem for years. I'm reading FOIA.gov right now, and don't see anything yet, but are there any explicit deadlines for a reply or automatic penalties for dropping requests on the floor instead of replying? Are there good reasons why some requests should be ignored, as opposed to, say, citing an exemption?

> I'm reading FOIA.gov right now, and don't see anything yet, but are there any explicit deadlines for a reply or automatic penalties for dropping requests on the floor instead of replying?

Technically, 20 days, but that's a farcical joke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(Un...

I used to have a job that relied on FOIA requests to perform my duties. Like any inter-organizational relationship it took a mix of formal requests and personal contact to get what we needed. And the ease at which we could get our FOIAs filled depended on the gov department budget and morale. You can define policy then structurally drain departments of The resources necessary to execute that policy & their mission.

FOIA has no real penalties for noncompliance. In Washington State, our public records law has penalties (legal fees + $100 per day of noncompliance), and as a result, state agencies tend to actually follow it.

Wow, I actually didn't even know you could opt out of this. Delta really should have made that more clear, but I suppose that's less conducive towards a police state.

You can only opt out if you're belligerent and willing to waste your time. On a trip back from Spain, flying in to Dulles, the agent immediately took my picture, even though I specifically said I did not want to. The agent said I had no choice, even though I knew this was false. I was then escorted to a supervisor who questioned me for ~20-30 minutes. He said that if I had nothing to hide, I shouldn't need to worry. I argued for as long as I could, but I had a connecting flight and needed to leave.. so I just gave up.

I’ve opted out 3 times so far, without incident. Twice in LA, once in Seattle. While heading to the door to board I didn’t look at the scanner and told the gate agent that I’d like to opt out. They said okay, I got on the plane, and that was it. Not even an alternative screen.

Not to say that your experience is invalid, but it’s not universal. Tho I am fundamentally against the technology in the first place, hence the opt out.

If you're against the technology, don't waste your time opting out (said as someone who spent way more effort over years of opting out of millimeter wave backscatter scans on principle). Support the ACLU, call, write, and meet with your representatives, do things that matter. Opting out simply causes you pain without any benefit.

Tools are never the problem; it's their implementation, use, oversight, and governance. Seek change at the appropriate layer.

Disclaimer: I'd embrace any auth system that streamlines my travel process (facial recognition at TSA checkpoint and the airline gate), but also believe one should be able to opt out and downgrade to traditional documents if desired.

Hopefully not being a tool about it, but mmwave and backscatter are different imaging technologies. Backscatter imaging is an x-ray technology, which, while very very low energy, uses ionizing radiation. Mmwave is not ionizing radiation.

I lumped them together on purpose (xray was previously used and was eventually repurposed for prisons by TSA, now millimeter wave is exclusively used by TSA), but your point and context is important and taken.

Continue to opt-out. It annoys the TSA. That's a good thing. I do it if I'm "required" to go through the body scanner.

It's also a good way to put totalitarianism on display out in the open, rather than letting it lurk quietly. It's amazing how nobody wants to make eye contact with you as you're being groped and fondled.

Eh, it's amusing. Treat it like a massage and realize they're going to reach in your waistband. It's not really a big deal.

Thank you for doing your part. Every time you opt out, people may notice. The more you opt out, the more you may inspire others to do so. The parent's argument is a self fulfilling prophecy.

When I do, it really break's people's pattern because they think I'm waiting to go through the scanner. I'm just waiting beside of it like I'm told.

"Are you waiting?" "Oh, no. I'm not going in that thing"

> It annoys the TSA.

No, it doesn't. It annoys all the other travelers whom you are inconveniencing by slowing down the screening process. The TSA people who screen you are just going to follow their standard procedures in response to whatever you do; it's all the same to them.

Have you opted out? 9/10 times the male assist is annoyed to do that.

> 9/10 times the male assist is annoyed to do that.

The individual person who has to screen you might be annoyed at that moment, yes, since the procedure they now have to execute is more complicated. That doesn't mean "TSA" is annoyed. To that individual person, you are just one of many transitory annoyances that are part of a normal day at work.

>If you're against the technology, don't waste your time opting out

I'm not saying it's worth any particular persons time to do so, but opting out does send a kind of signal. The more people opt out, the better, in addition to the steps you mentioned.

Nowhere near enough people opt out for it to matter, nor will they, hence my comment's position.

> Support the ACLU, call, write, and meet with your representatives, do things that matter.

While this is always a good way to make your views known, that doesn't mean it will accomplish what you are seeking. Even if everyone who has a genuine objection to intrusive security screening at airports were to do what you suggest, I strongly suspect it would still amount to a small enough percentage of voters that it would not change the incentives of elected representatives.

The underlying point is that this is about risk aversion. Yes, people don't like intrusive security screening, but they even more don't like the risk of being on a plane that gets hijacked by terrorists, and they believe it's the government's job to prevent that from happening. That's why we have the airport security procedures we have. Unless that risk calculation changes, the procedures are not going to change.

I'm glad to hear that. I didn't have the best flight and was really happy to be home.. so it definitely stuck with me when that happened. Also.. is it possible that mine was a different thing? The agent just held up a random webcam, it wasn't on a "legit" scanner.

You just made their list.

A few things:

1. Escalate this to your senator

2. Inform the ACLU/EFF about this.. you may have some leverage here

3. File a DOT complaint and a complaint on the Spanish side (you may have EU rights if it was done on Spanish soil) https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/file-consumer-com...

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/themes/...

https://edps.europa.eu/data-protection/data-protection_en

The only reason they did that to you is they knew they could get away with it. They intentionally griefed you because they knew you were running out of time.

If your freedom is predicated on someone else deciding when you can enjoy it, you never had it to begin with. The "nothing to hide means transgressions don't count" people have no business being citizens.

> He said that if I had nothing to hide, I shouldn't need to worry.

It's one thing to see random people say this but government officials? That's terrifying.

For others looking for info on the opt-out: only US citizens can do so, apparently.

Ive flow delta on 10 international legs in the past year. It’s entirely unclear at boarding time. The gate agents simply ask you to look at the camera. Every time I’ve simply said “no thank you”, handed them my passport, and made sure my face wasn’t in camera view. There’s never been an issue, but I’ve never seen anyone else opt out either.

Here are some questions I have:

1. How do I actually opt-out?

2. If I opt out, does this affect Global Entry or TSA Precheck?

3. Does opt-out have any bearing on renewal of Global Entry or TSA Precheck?

It looks like a person has to speak to an airline employee to opt out, that is, when they’re at the facial scanning system. This article may be useful for your questions: https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/13/americans-opt-out-facial-r...

Oh ok I see. I thought it was a program you could opt-out of automatically versus having to do it each time you might get your picture taken.

Thank you!

Are there people who are both have Global Entry/Precheck and are against govt facial recognition?

I'm curious how those two get reconciled.

The difference is that Precheck is a voluntary, opt-in program - you give up personal information in exchange for expedient security check. Big difference from doing it for everybody indiscriminately.

Passive surveillance versus active questionnaire. The questionnaire I did was a one time thing and it was the most ridiculously security theater thing possible. The interview went

"You work at XYZ?"

"Yup"

"You live at 123 Whatever St?"

"Yup"

"Okay, here ya go."

There may have been a third question. I forget.

Passive surveillance crosses a line for me. I don't want this to get normalized.

Plus, with pre-check it was a legit exchange. I give up some info they already have and in exchange they give me a huge benefit when I travel. Much more fair.

I am. I went through nexus because I travel a lot. For various reasons both CBP, DOJ, State, and other countries already have fingerprints and photos of me. There was no net loss in my case so it was worth it.

As others have stated a clear explicit exchange with a known party is very different than passive continual surveillance with unknown arbitrary parties and no consent.

Why is the US becoming more of a police state, and how can we stop this?

Why? 9/11 and the Patriot Act. How? Be mad and let your elected officials know.

FWIW, for non-Americans (like myself) ... you apparently cannot opt out of this photo/face initiative. TSA/airport full-body scanners are still opt-out for all.

Don't visit the US. I've not been since they started fingerprinting us Untermensch

That's been me too. Obviously they don't want us Mexicans in the US, so why would I go?

I'm hoping to get a Canadian passport soon (although with what's happening in the world, who knows), and I think for immigration and travel purposes, Canadians are treated almost the same as US citizens (no fingerprinting). I might visit the US again under those terms.

No provisions for non-US citizens to opt out. Can't say I'm surprised.

is there a place to check which airports and which airlines have implemented this? I traveled over the holidays and didn't even notice the face scanning.

Mirror: https://archive.is/Ka7zO

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